McGill's flaws

[shouldieventry]

Current McGill med students: what don't you like about McGill?

 

I think that clinical exposure is pretty much nonexistant during the first 18 months, and the schedule doesn't seem too flexible (8AM to 3:30PM mon-fri?). And there is no PBL, which some might consider a plus, but I'm not sure yet, since I have not experienced it myself. Anything else? What is your experience so far?

 

I have searched and read all there is to read in the McGill forum, but I want fresh experiences from current students! I'm pretty much set on choosing McGill, and I already live in Montreal so I know the city. I just want to fully understand what I'm gettting myself into!

 

Thanks!

[over9000]

I've seen Med1 having some clinical exposure during their first 18 months although I believe it's not as much as other schools. However, they have Intro to Clinical Medicine right after Basis of Medicine. It's 6 months of clinical intro that other schools would have during the first two years. So it depends if you'd prefer to still be learning theory while having clinical exposure or if you'd rather have all the theory before going to the hospital.

 

And they also have PBL called 'small groups' in addition to lectures. And the lectures are recorded so that compensates a bit for the schedule.

 

I can't speak for myself (yet!) but I think it really depends what you are looking for. For example, among other things, some people might just want PBL and the light schedule that comes with it while others would prefer lectures because they know they are going to procrastinate...

[Corie]

o.O Where did you find out lectures are recorded?! Got to love the ITS at McGill!

[fever]

o.O Where did you find out lectures are recorded?! Got to love the ITS at McGill!

 

I am doing my undergrad at McGill, and yes all the lectures are recorded. And just the voice, but also all the slides the prof presents.

[shouldieventry]

I've seen Med1 having some clinical exposure during their first 18 months although I believe it's not as much as other schools. However, they have Intro to Clinical Medicine right after Basis of Medicine. It's 6 months of clinical intro that other schools would have during the first two years. So it depends if you'd prefer to still be learning theory while having clinical exposure or if you'd rather have all the theory before going to the hospital.

 

And they also have PBL called 'small groups' in addition to lectures. And the lectures are recorded so that compensates a bit for the schedule.

 

I can't speak for myself (yet!) but I think it really depends what you are looking for. For example, among other things, some people might just want PBL and the light schedule that comes with it while others would prefer lectures because they know they are going to procrastinate...

 

You bring up some good points.

 

I have heard of this "clinical exposure" before ICM. I think you get assigned a patient that you will meet 5 or 6 times throughout pre-clerkship (and during clerkship also? I don't remember...). So it's not really "nonexistant" as I said, but I don't think we get to apply our knowledge on patients cases until ICM. Even then, I'm not sure how much we do...

 

As for BOM, I'm starting to think that getting a solid foundation before hitting the clinical part of the curriculum might help me focus on learning the clinical reasoning process during ICM, instead of spending countless hours learning the material... It's just that since most schools seem to be switching to PBL for the basic sciences, I kind of assumed that was more efficient. But it's hard to judge without having experienced it.

 

From what I understand, small groups is for Physicianship, which is focused on professionalism, skills and ethics, and I'm not sure it is strutured as PBL per se... Can anyone confirm or elaborate on this?

 

The recorded lectures will definitely be a plus! Although it was clearly stated at the MMI that they should be used as a complement to attending classes, not a replacement. So I do plan on attending all classes, but I reserve the right to change my mind later!

 

 

Any other opinions on what bothers you at McGill?

 

Or maybe you just absolutely love it, and can't find anything that bothers you! Then, what do you like the most?

[feversugar]

No, it's terrible, if you get accepted don't go there! You must refuse and go elsewhere! Let me take your spot

 

just kidding, I loved everything I heard at the presentation before my interview xD

[Star1234]

Current McGill med students: what don't you like about McGill?

 

I think that clinical exposure is pretty much nonexistant during the first 18 months, and the schedule doesn't seem too flexible (8AM to 3:30PM mon-fri?). And there is no PBL, which some might consider a plus, but I'm not sure yet, since I have not experienced it myself. Anything else? What is your experience so far?

 

I have searched and read all there is to read in the McGill forum, but I want fresh experiences from current students! I'm pretty much set on choosing McGill, and I already live in Montreal so I know the city. I just want to fully understand what I'm gettting myself into!

 

Thanks!

 

Hey! I'm a first year McGill Med student, so hopefully I'll be able to answer some of your questions.

 

As for clinical exposure, it's true that we don't get a lot in the first year and a half. However, we finish with classes half a year earlier and instead have something called ICM (intro to clinical medicine) for the second half of second year. This is basically where they teach you all the clinical skills that you need before you enter into clerkship so that by the time you enter clerkship at the beginning of 3rd year, you are prepared!

 

However, McGill offers plenty of shadowing opportunities, so if you want to go into the clinic on your own time, residents/staff are usually more than happy to show you around. Also, we get assigned a "first year patient" our first year that we follow around for the whole year (mandatory 5 visits), and on top of that we have 3 mandatory clinical encounters that we have to fullfill by the end of first year. So we're not in the clinic on a weekly basis like some other schools, but we do get SOME clinical exposure (although the amount is really up to you).

 

As for PBL, we do have that but instead it's called "small groups". Basically we get assigned a case and have to go in and discuss it with our small groups. We usually have at least one of these a week, and the small groups are lead by residents or staff in that field. So for example, we are just finishing a unit on head and neck, so our last small group was lead by an ENT surgeon.

 

We usually have class from 8:30-2:30 on most days, but some of this time may be filled by either anatomy or histology labs, or small groups so it's not all lecture. All lectures ARE recorded, so some people just go to the labs/small groups and then leave and go study on their own. McGill makes learning flexible so if you're the type of person that gets really distracted in class, you can just listen to the lectures in the library or in the comfort of your own home. If you're the type of person that needs structure and needs to be told when to be in class at what time, then it works for you too. I personally do a combination of both

 

McGill is good in that the first year and a half is broken down into 8 units, and there is an exam after each unit (unlike some schools that only have one midterm at Christmas and then a final at the end of the year). The thought of constant exams might sound bad at first, but it forces you to stay on top of things rather than leaving everything until the last minute and then having a panic attack when you realize that there is so much to learn! Also, we have a unit party at the end of every unit, so that makes the social life at McGill pretty enjoyable

 

There isn't too much about McGill that I don't like to be honest. It's true that we could have more clinical exposure during the first year and a half, but they're working on that. The administration is very open on hearing the student's opinions and they take our feedback seriously.

 

If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to PM me! Hopefully I'll see you next year

[JJ1985]

I will try to answer your questions as I just finished medical school at McGill.

 

The first year and a half does have limited clinical exposure. That being said ICM is a fantastic addition to the curriculum. It gives you an opportunity to observe staff, residents and other medical students in their role in the hospital before undertaking clerkship. It also helps integrate all the basic knowledge you learnt during the first year and a half.

 

Clerkship is intense and you have to do a lot by yourself in the hospital. This makes you an excellent clerk and strong resident but at times it can feel as though people are asking too much of you. I found when I visited other schools that the students had a tendency to be more relaxed as did the staff since the expectations were very different than what I had come to expect at McGill.

 

Overall I enjoyed my experience at McGill and I obviously am bias in my judgement of the other programs since I've only seen them second-hand or on elective.

[shouldieventry]

Hey! I'm a first year McGill Med student, so hopefully I'll be able to answer some of your questions.

 

As for clinical exposure, it's true that we don't get a lot in the first year and a half. However, we finish with classes half a year earlier and instead have something called ICM (intro to clinical medicine) for the second half of second year. This is basically where they teach you all the clinical skills that you need before you enter into clerkship so that by the time you enter clerkship at the beginning of 3rd year, you are prepared!

 

That's reassuring. It is one of my concerns that I would be underprepared compared to students from other schools when entering clerkship. Although finishing basic science half a year earlier does sound appealing... I like the way you look at it!

 

However, McGill offers plenty of shadowing opportunities, so if you want to go into the clinic on your own time, residents/staff are usually more than happy to show you around. Also, we get assigned a "first year patient" our first year that we follow around for the whole year (mandatory 5 visits), and on top of that we have 3 mandatory clinical encounters that we have to fullfill by the end of first year. So we're not in the clinic on a weekly basis like some other schools, but we do get SOME clinical exposure (although the amount is really up to you).

 

Nice! That sounds enough, considering our knowledge surely is limited in first year. It's nice to know that if I really feel the urge to see patients, it can be arranged.

 

As for PBL, we do have that but instead it's called "small groups". Basically we get assigned a case and have to go in and discuss it with our small groups. We usually have at least one of these a week, and the small groups are lead by residents or staff in that field. So for example, we are just finishing a unit on head and neck, so our last small group was lead by an ENT surgeon.

 

So there is PBL after all! I don't know where I got the impression that there wasn't. I guess it's a bit like what they do at Laval university: most of the preclinical stuff is lectures, with some PBL in between. I heard (at Ottawa?) that there was difference between "problem"-based learning vs "case"-based learning... I'm wondering if they're just trying to sell their method, or if there is indeed a difference in the approach? Anyways, I'm just relived that there is some form of PBL, since I think it's the only way to fully integrate and apply what is learned in class.

 

We usually have class from 8:30-2:30 on most days, but some of this time may be filled by either anatomy or histology labs, or small groups so it's not all lecture. All lectures ARE recorded, so some people just go to the labs/small groups and then leave and go study on their own. McGill makes learning flexible so if you're the type of person that gets really distracted in class, you can just listen to the lectures in the library or in the comfort of your own home. If you're the type of person that needs structure and needs to be told when to be in class at what time, then it works for you too. I personally do a combination of both

 

Great! I'm already thinking that's what I'll be doing. I'm not sure I would feel confident enough to never go to class, but once I get a feel of the type of material that is covered, and what type of exams to expect, I'm sure I won't be able to resist staying home once in a while!

 

McGill is good in that the first year and a half is broken down into 8 units, and there is an exam after each unit (unlike some schools that only have one midterm at Christmas and then a final at the end of the year). The thought of constant exams might sound bad at first, but it forces you to stay on top of things rather than leaving everything until the last minute and then having a panic attack when you realize that there is so much to learn! Also, we have a unit party at the end of every unit, so that makes the social life at McGill pretty enjoyable

 

I like the units concept: it's like getting a fresh start every couple of months. And I am not a crammer, so I should be good.

 

There isn't too much about McGill that I don't like to be honest. It's true that we could have more clinical exposure during the first year and a half, but they're working on that. The administration is very open on hearing the student's opinions and they take our feedback seriously.

 

I can see that you seem quite happy to study at McGill! I also got a pretty good feeling from everyone I had to deal with, and I have to say, I was right out impressed by some of them. That is definitively an aspect that makes the decision to attend McGill so easy. It's good to know that it continues once you're a student, and that it's not just for show during admissions!

 

If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to PM me! Hopefully I'll see you next year

 

Oh you will!

 

Thank you so much for taking the time.

[Corie]

Thanks Star1234, that was a really helpful post. I'm really looking forward to next year!!

[shouldieventry]

I will try to answer your questions as I just finished medical school at McGill.

 

The first year and a half does have limited clinical exposure. That being said ICM is a fantastic addition to the curriculum. It gives you an opportunity to observe staff, residents and other medical students in their role in the hospital before undertaking clerkship. It also helps integrate all the basic knowledge you learnt during the first year and a half.

 

Clerkship is intense and you have to do a lot by yourself in the hospital. This makes you an excellent clerk and strong resident but at times it can feel as though people are asking too much of you. I found when I visited other schools that the students had a tendency to be more relaxed as did the staff since the expectations were very different than what I had come to expect at McGill.

 

Overall I enjoyed my experience at McGill and I obviously am bias in my judgement of the other programs since I've only seen them second-hand or on elective.

 

Interesting... I am a pretty hands-on person, and I tend to get bored if I only observe. So ICM combined with an intense clerkship as you describe seems like a plus to me! But maybe I'll change my mind once I go through it...

 

Did you ever feel your were unprepared for some of what you had to do in clerkship?

 

What I understand from your comparison with other schools is that in McGill's rotations they expect more from their clerks than other schools/hospitals, right?

 

But did you find the gap between ICM and clerkship was a big one? I'm wondering if the lack of clinical exposure might make it an even bigger shock when clerkship starts...

 

Thanks for your insight!

 

Edit: oh and congrats on your match!

[incepted]

The truth is all schools have very limited clinical exposure before the last two years. Even in schools that boast about early exposure, it is only a total of a few intermittent weeks where you are in a setting where you can interact with patients.

 

I guess McGill's take on it is that there is no point exposing you to the clinical setting when you don't have the knowledge to know what you are doing. Having had early clinical exposure, I kindda see their point. It's mostly just observing.

[thebouque]

In my experience clinical exposure in the 1st 2 years isn't that useful, so even if you get a bit more a bit less exposure before clerkship it's really not a big deal trust me. I'm not a McGill student either but I have a few friends who go there and ICM seems pretty neat.

In my mind, it's obvious that thanks to ICM, McGill students are as prepared as any other med students to tackle clerkship.

[thebouque]

But did you find the gap between ICM and clerkship was a big one? I'm wondering if the lack of clinical exposure might make it an even bigger shock when clerkship starts...

 

What lack of clinical exposure are you talking about? They have ICM!

[shouldieventry]

The truth is all schools have very limited clinical exposure before the last two years. Even in schools that boast about early exposure, it is only a total of a few intermittent weeks where you are in a setting where you can interact with patients.

 

I guess McGill's take on it is that there is no point exposing you to the clinical setting when you don't have the knowledge to know what you are doing. Having had early clinical exposure, I kindda see their point. It's mostly just observing.

 

In my experience clinical exposure in the 1st 2 years isn't that useful, so even if you get a bit more a bit less exposure before clerkship it's really not a big deal trust me. I'm not a McGill student either but I have a few friends who go there and ICM seems pretty neat.

In my mind, it's obvious that thanks to ICM, McGill students are as prepared as any other med students to tackle clerkship.

 

Right, that does make sense.

 

What lack of clinical exposure are you talking about? They have ICM!

 

I don't know what lack of clinical exposure: that's what I'm trying to find out!

 

I guess as incepted mentioned, some other schools make a big deal of "early clinical exposure", as if that made such a big difference... I thought maybe students that were in the hospital throughout preclerkship could feel more comfortable around patients... And this ICM is still a bit nebulous to me.

[feversugar]

Right, that does make sense.

 

 

 

I don't know what lack of clinical exposure: that's what I'm trying to find out!

 

I guess as incepted mentioned, some other schools make a big deal of "early clinical exposure", as if that made such a big difference... I thought maybe students that were in the hospital throughout preclerkship could feel more comfortable around patients... And this ICM is still a bit nebulous to me.

 

I believe that ICM is practicing on mannequins (that can vomit, etc)

 

Personally I would feel more confident knowing most of the theory, aka knowing everything that I need to know BEFORE marching into hospitals. If they were to just shove me into clinical with little knowledge (plus other schools require a lot of learning at home with books, which again would make me insecure because I wouldn't know if I learned it all correctly) I think I'd be too unsure of myself and nervous. Dealing with someone's health is serious business, even though we are there to learn it's not really the best place to make mistakes or to be clueless and panic. (imagine what the patient would feel if they felt you were unsure of everything you're saying/doing, even if you were under supervision).

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure that doesn't happen most of the time, but FOR ME, I'd be afraid just in CASE it WOULD happen to me. So I'd just be scared all the time lol

[thebouque]

I'm not at McGill but ICM is def not only mannequins. It's 5-6 months of clinical skills and they get tons and tons of shadowing and they practice some of their skills on actual patients. Maybe in terms of hours McGill has even more preclerkship clinical exposure than the other schools in Quebec (nobody actually counted though).

[thebouque]

even though we are there to learn it's not really the best place to make mistakes or to be clueless and panic. (imagine what the patient would feel if they felt you were unsure of everything you're saying/doing, even if you were under supervision).

 

Actually CLERKSHIP is the best place to make mistakes, and you will make tons of them. That's how you learn.

[Doctor_Strangelove]

I'm not at McGill but ICM is def not only mannequins. It's 5-6 months of clinical skills and they get tons and tons of shadowing and they practice some of their skills on actual patients. Maybe in terms of hours McGill has even more preclerkship clinical exposure than the other schools in Quebec (nobody actually counted though).

 

Correct, our ICM is in the hospital and doesn't really involve mannequins that can throw up, though that would be cool lol. We do however have some sessions at a place called the Simulation Center, and depending on the session, we may have cases involving expensive human-like mannequins.

[shouldieventry]

Dealing with someone's health is serious business, even though we are there to learn it's not really the best place to make mistakes or to be clueless and panic. (imagine what the patient would feel if they felt you were unsure of everything you're saying/doing, even if you were under supervision).

 

Actually CLERKSHIP is the best place to make mistakes, and you will make tons of them. That's how you learn.

 

I agree with thebouque: you have to expect a certain amount of mistakes during clerkship (and ICM), otherwise you'll go nuts! I'm sure this is the period in the training where you are most closely watched by residents/attendings. So of course you don't go in there and be sloppy because someone is going to catch your mistakes anyways! But at least you can feel confident that the "damage" you may cause is limited, which is essential if you want to be able to go forward and learn to apply in the real world all that stuff you covered during preclinical.

 

Edit: I reread your post feversugar, and I do agree with you that having a minimum of knowledge will make you more confident in dealing with patients. But it is a somewhat controlled environment in which you'll have to do stuff /ask questions you are not sure about if you want to learn.

 

Correct, our ICM is in the hospital and doesn't really involve mannequins that can throw up, though that would be cool lol. We do however have some sessions at a place called the Simulation Center, and depending on the session, we may have cases involving expensive human-like mannequins.

 

Oh, I don't know where I got the idea that about half of ICM was in class... but I had another look at the ICM presentation here and it does state that it's mainly hospital-based.

 

I was already sold on McGill, even with these schedule and clinical exposure "issues". But I guess I got it all wrong. Thanks for shedding some light on this!

[JJ1985]

The gap between pre-clerkship and clerkship is huge regardless of ICM or not. But that being said I believe ICM is a fantastic primer for the following two years of clerkship. Clerkship is trial by fire where you will make tons of mistakes but have supervision. I always felt unprepared for what I was doing the first couple days of a rotation but you get the hang of it and at McGill they really push you to be independent in your decisions for your patients quickly.

 

ICM as previous people have mentioned is not on dummies. You are in the hospital in three different blocks (surgery, internal medicine and a mix of neurology, anesthesia and family medicine). There you get to work with staff practicing examination skills, history taking and preliminary differential diagnosis development. You have no patient responsibility or management decisions. I found that the extra 6 months in hospital was a huge benefit. But I was never a fan of pre-clinical anything.

 

 

 

Interesting... I am a pretty hands-on person, and I tend to get bored if I only observe. So ICM combined with an intense clerkship as you describe seems like a plus to me! But maybe I'll change my mind once I go through it...

 

Did you ever feel your were unprepared for some of what you had to do in clerkship?

 

What I understand from your comparison with other schools is that in McGill's rotations they expect more from their clerks than other schools/hospitals, right?

 

But did you find the gap between ICM and clerkship was a big one? I'm wondering if the lack of clinical exposure might make it an even bigger shock when clerkship starts...

 

Thanks for your insight!

 

Edit: oh and congrats on your match!

[shouldieventry]

Thanks JJ1895!

 

It is somewhat reassuring to have an idea of what to expect. Now I can't wait!