It's time for doctors to start caring about certain things.

[AtomSmasher2]

- Why does primary care get paid the least, despite having the ****tiest, most demanding job? Do you think that the combination of ****ty pay and ****ty work one of the biggest reasons why there is such a shortage of them right now?

 

- There is a shortage of doctors in Canada. Could this have anything to do with the fact that doctors are paid much less in Canada than across the border, and that more doctors move out of Canada to the States than vice versa?

 

- Why are some doctors paid more than others in our socialist system? Are some doctors simply more important than others?

 

- Why are physician salaries going down, yet the amount of trainning and competitiveness of admission keep going up?

 

- Why has the healthcare system been in a "crisis" every year for the last 30 years, that can only be fixed by diverting "just a bit more" money to it? Why is roughly half of ontario's provincial budget health care expenses? Do you think this could have anything to do with why Ontario is more heavily taxed than any US state, and that Canadians on average possess 1/3 less wealth than the average American?

 

- Is it safe to give nurses the power to perform things that they aren't trained to do, in the interest of saving money in a failing system? Wouldn't that be that be kind of like randomly swapping half of the drugs in the country with placebos in order to save money?

 

- Why do some medical treatments have to be paid for, but others not? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of "universal" healthcare, and contradict socialist ideals?

 

- Why do these problems still exist? I thought the thousands of intelligent beauraucrats were working around the clock to fix them? Do you think these unionized beaurocrats are making the system more or less efficient?

 

- Unionized hospital staff. Is paying the janitor $23 an hour in an economy like this making the system more or less efficient?

 

It's time to switch to a capitalist system of healthcare. As for the leftists who want to use healthcare as an excuse for wealth redistribution - piss off, I don't want to hear from you. Time to get serious about the healthcare "crisis."

[aaronjw]

- There is a shortage of doctors in Canada. Could this have anything to do with the fact that doctors are paid much less in Canada than across the border, and that more doctors move out of Canada to the States than vice versa?

 

You should probably check your facts (on this and many, many other points you raised).

 

http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/CMA/Content_Images/Inside_cma/Statistics/19-Abroad_Returns.pdf

 

Since about 2004, more physicians have been coming back than have been leaving.

 

We haven't seen much in the way of mass exodus since the 90's when med school restrictions and reduction in pay forced many (including nurses) to look abroad.

[Mourning Cloak]

So many mistakes. But this one is my favourite:

 

- Why do some medical treatments have to be paid for, but others not? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of "universal" healthcare, and contradict socialist ideals?

 

According to the CHA, "universal" healthcare means it covers all "insured persons", not that it covers all imaginable tests / procedures / drugs.

[seeking1]

Why are some doctors paid more than others in our socialist system? Are some doctors simply more important than others?

 

Wow...you actually think Canada has a socialist health care system...do you understand that all doctors are effectively private businesses?

[aaronjw]

Wow...you actually think Canada has a socialist health care system...do you understand that all doctors are effectively private businesses?

 

Ummm we do have socialist health care. How physicians setup practice is not indicative of a system being socialist, liberitarian or otherwise.

[ThomasRolland]

- Is it safe to give nurses the power to perform things that they aren't trained to do, in the interest of saving money in a failing system? Wouldn't that be that be kind of like randomly swapping half of the drugs in the country with placebos in order to save money?

 

This is a big, big issue. Hopefully the government will come to their senses.

[obi]

- Why does primary care get paid the least, despite having the ****tiest, most demanding job? Do you think that the combination of ****ty pay and ****ty work one of the biggest reasons why there is such a shortage of them right now?

 

You can make 200k+ quite easily as a family doc (keep in mind the average DUAL income family only makes 100k) and there is absolutely no comparison between their lifestyle and say that of a surgeon. The increased level of skill required on a surgeon's part as well as the ludicrous hours that they work more than justifies the pay discrepancy.

 

ER docs that i've talked to / shadowed say the job is simply, show up, work your shift, relax at home.

 

I will however agree with your point that a LOOOOOOOOT of money is wasted on useless crap... Hospital administration/bureaucracy is one of the biggest sinkholes i've ever heard of..

[obi]

Fresh? Not really, there are tonnes of people who feel this way (myself included) but of course nobody is going to say anything about it.. this is Canada... land of love and faux egalitarianism. The system is garbage but its not going to change for the reasons you mentioned above. I was comparing doctors to doctors though (Primary care vs specialists).. You can't compare them to lawyers, businessmen, or even dentists in terms of pay because doctors are getting paid by the government. Everyone else just molests the insurance companies or gets paid cash by clients. Although doctors (specialists) can also do private consultations for insurance purposes and those do pay quite handsomely..

 

Yes i'm a premed but i've basically lived medicine since i could breathe.. My rents/extended family talk about little else.

[Pantaloons]

- Why are physician salaries going down, yet the amount of trainning and competitiveness of admission keep going up?

 

The statement above is pretty false. Lets compare these statements to the actual numbers.

 

- If you look at the actual data, the evidence is that "medicare enhanced physician income" (medicare: what you called "socialist" medicine) Check out the paper above, it's pretty interesting; written by Dr. Duffin at Queen's. It shows that medicare actually enhanced physician income overall.

- Physician salaries have been steadily increasing since the 1980s, really

 

And, as was pointed up above, the numbers show that more physicians have been coming into Canada rather than leaving Canada. Numbers.

 

Anyways, I see this thread disintegrating into a flamewar soon, so I shall take my bow now.

[apache]

i like your passion, but you have rather simplistic views and simplistic solutions (and i don't believe in a pure public health care system (or a purely private one) nor am i left of centre on all issues), they'll mature tho... in reality things are never black and white, there are so many layers of complexity tacit in solving such complex and multi-dimensiona problems that there is no "fix" and any proposed fix would have to be eclectic and multi-factorial in nature.

 

- Why does primary care get paid the least, despite having the ****tiest, most demanding job? Do you think that the combination of ****ty pay and ****ty work one of the biggest reasons why there is such a shortage of them right now?

 

- There is a shortage of doctors in Canada. Could this have anything to do with the fact that doctors are paid much less in Canada than across the border, and that more doctors move out of Canada to the States than vice versa?

 

- Why are some doctors paid more than others in our socialist system? Are some doctors simply more important than others?

 

- Why are physician salaries going down, yet the amount of trainning and competitiveness of admission keep going up?

 

- Why has the healthcare system been in a "crisis" every year for the last 30 years, that can only be fixed by diverting "just a bit more" money to it? Why is roughly half of ontario's provincial budget health care expenses? Do you think this could have anything to do with why Ontario is more heavily taxed than any US state, and that Canadians on average possess 1/3 less wealth than the average American?

 

- Is it safe to give nurses the power to perform things that they aren't trained to do, in the interest of saving money in a failing system? Wouldn't that be that be kind of like randomly swapping half of the drugs in the country with placebos in order to save money?

 

- Why do some medical treatments have to be paid for, but others not? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of "universal" healthcare, and contradict socialist ideals?

 

- Why do these problems still exist? I thought the thousands of intelligent beauraucrats were working around the clock to fix them? Do you think these unionized beaurocrats are making the system more or less efficient?

 

- Unionized hospital staff. Is paying the janitor $23 an hour in an economy like this making the system more or less efficient?

 

It's time to switch to a capitalist system of healthcare. As for the leftists who want to use healthcare as an excuse for wealth redistribution - piss off, I don't want to hear from you. Time to get serious about the healthcare "crisis."

[apache]

i agree with quite a few of these points: the lack of distribution, rather than lack of practitioners - there's a fam doc every block in toronto, the idiotic fm residency and how it forces people to choose a specialty too early (1 and a bit year of clerkship before you start applying for carms)... if there was a general practice permit (perhaps with a 2 yr req rather than 1, with the ability to go back, lots of people would go into family practice for a decade, because theyd know they could always apply to rads one day if u became interested, plus ud have less disillusioned family docs who work half time at a walk in clinic b/c they don't like their specialty and can't apply to another one, the whole ccfp thing is an attempt to do what all professions do, appear as if they have specialized knowledge only they have access too, why do u think we have the bull**** dsm, after the thud experiment in the 70's shrinks lost the perception of being able to tell the sane from the insane, so they "objectivized" mental illness, too bad someone forget to mention that a subjective interpreter still has to interpret the overly simplistic, open to interpretation whimsical criteria... see, now we have a specialized skill set again, only we can decide if u meet the criteria for this symptom... wheres the money... the powerful specialist lobby and restriction of residency spots in specialties to maintain shortages and high salaries, the capricious billing schedules that have no correlation with the difficulty or time required for an act (it's sure hard to measure and bill for "thinking", and the pittance paid to non-procedural specialties, common problems will be lobbied for and politicians want their jobs (and who votes... the elderly!) so wait-lists for more rare problems go on (and god forbid a neurologist isn't able to diagnose you, wait another 3 months). i'm very much with you on the free market thing, especially in specialties that have a diverse range in skill (psychiatry is without a doubt the leader, full of incompetent mongoloids, and absolute geniuses - yet they all get paid the same, in fact, you're likely to make less if you do a good job, because 2 hours of psychotherapy and a prescription doesn't pay like 10 min med management sessions). you're also right in the fact that doctors have poor training in negotiations (which reiterates the importance of training in the humanities, training thinkers rather than fact machines)

 

i worked in unionized non-skilled hospital jobs (not labor, but anyone could do it) and i have to say, i got paid 4 times as much as my first ever job, and i worked 1/4 as hard, im not saying we should give them min wage, but food services staff get round 20 an hour to put trays on a belt line.

 

A few points:

 

Primary care gets paid the least despite the crappy job they have to do because their remuneration is still that of a "generalist"; that is, they do not have specialized knowledge and therefore do not deserve extra pay. The problem with that is they have their own residency stream which makes "specialists" in "family medicine(gag)", and therefore they have the monopoly on primary care. I think the CCFP is stupid and their decisions are detrimental to the health of the public, but I'm just logical. Don't mind me.

 

The doctor shortage is a hoax. It's more like a doctor maldistribution. True shortages exist in few specialties, like dermatology. We have enough family docs, we just dont have enough of them in Moose Factory.

 

I agree with your anger at our socialist system. The billing codes of physicians are dictated by a closed-room cadre of super-specialists, mostly surgeons, who value procedural work over cerebral work. It's the same in the USA. This is part of the reason why primary care, psych and peds earns 5hit compared to other fields. A doctor's worth should be dictated in the free market. In fact, concierge practices would be a great way to attract people into a lifetime of primary care as it should be practiced - manageable patient roster and enough time with the patients to do a good job.

 

Salaries are going down relative to inflation because physicians are paid under a socialist system, and as a collective group they are clueless when it comes to contract negotiations and politics.

 

Health care is in a crisis which is consistently worsening because most of the voting populace is elderly and only getting older. They want health care that services their needs. Politicians need to make good on that in order for them to keep their sweet, sweet parliament hill jobs and subsequent patronage appointments.

 

Nurses need to STFU about being equivalent to primary care practitioners. They just want the money. This isn't about patient safety or health.

 

Paid for medical treatments are determined by the voting populace. A new hip for a 100 year old is paid for by our taxes. The best treatment regimen for a treatment resistant paediatric leukaemia probably won't be. Universal health care worked when medical technology was limited. It can't work anymore, unless most of us accept the grim spectre of death and aging without modification.

 

Unionized non-skilled labor is one of the biggest problems with North American economics. That kind of crap essentially killed the whole concept of "made in canada".

 

We do need to go capitalist. Japan has a good model, as does Australia.