UofC Med Students/Clerks: Competency Compared to Others?

[lostintime]

I know a lot of residents who did med school in the Caribbean. Are you saying it's impossible in the future? Because right now, there's a lot of them training in Canada.

[NLengr]

I know a lot of residents who did med school in the Caribbean. Are you saying it's impossible in the future? Because right now, there's a lot of them training in Canada.

 

It will become more difficult to use the IMG route in the future.

 

1. The US is cutting budgets and will be reducing the number of post grad training positions in the future.

 

2. Canada will likely reduce or redistribute post grad positions to better reflect the current physician supply (many specialties have too many practitioners for the amount of work the government is willing to make available).

 

3. There are increasing numbers of Canadians Studying Abroad, meaning more competition for post grad positions.

[cardiomegaly]

The only saving grace for Canadians studying abroad is that some of them happen to have parents who are powerful and influential people. I'm not saying that everyone who goes abroad has Mommy and Daddy funding them (this forum is full of people financing their own education), but I've lost track of how many articles and rebuttals I've read in CMA/Medical Post etc of physicians advocating for their son or daughter who happens to be studying in Ireland and wants a postgrad position back in Canada because they are a Canadian citizen.

 

The fact is, the average CSA has a parental income 4x that of the average Canadian family. So there are people fighting to help the CSA's find a way back. How else would some Gr 12 kid be able to afford the new St. Andrews/Edinborough program? http://medicine.st-andrews.ac.uk/pro/alberta/ Tuition alone is almost 250K.

 

But other than that, I agree with everything NLengr said... it's not going to get any easier.

[leviathan]

I know a physician who is currently involved in policy for IMG residencies and I can assure you, it's not only difficult to come to Canada from the caribbean, but at this point, virtually impossible.

You should take a closer look at where most of the IMGs who are matching in Canada went to medical school. It's a pretty even mix of Ireland,UK,Australia, eastern Europe and the Caribbean. In other words, it doesn't really matter where you go to medical school as long as you are a strong applicant.

 

Of course if you've never done a rotation in Canada then they may have to fall back on superficial and unimportant factors like where you went to medical school, where the Commonwealth schools might have an edge. Nevertheless, if you don't have rotations in Canada then you are going to have a very difficult time matching regardless of where you went to school, so it's a moot point.

[leviathan]

The fact is, the average CSA has a parental income 4x that of the average Canadian family. So there are people fighting to help the CSA's find a way back. How else would some Gr 12 kid be able to afford the new St. Andrews/Edinborough program? http://medicine.st-andrews.ac.uk/pro/alberta/ Tuition alone is almost 250K.

CDN $294,177 by today's market rate.

[mm88]

It will become more difficult to use the IMG route in the future.

 

1. The US is cutting budgets and will be reducing the number of post grad training positions in the future.

 

 

This is what I was talking about. How can you come back to Canada without scoring a residency spot first? :/

[AtomSmasher6]

I could see people in 3 year programs being equally as competent, but having less of a shot at good residency programs... due to less time for electives and research. The fact that Mac and UofC have some of the highest match rates into FM supports this contention. I'm glad I picked a 4 year school in the end.

[cardiomegaly]

I could see people in 3 year programs being equally as competent, but having less of a shot at good residency programs... due to less time for electives and research. The fact that Mac and UofC have some of the highest match rates into FM supports this contention. I'm glad I picked a 4 year school in the end.

 

True for Mac, not true for U of C

 

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2011R1_MatchResults/26_Proportion%20of%20CDN%20Grads%20Choosing%20FM%20as%201st%20Choice_en.pdf

 

Calgary had the second lowest match rate to family medicine last year after USask. Mac's was second highest after NOSM (who will always have the highest FM match anyway).

[mm88]

Opening another can of worms here out of sheer curiosity.

 

As a future UofC med student, I was wondering about whether UofC is recognized in the US. I heard a rumour that Mac was not considered an accredited medical institution, because it is a 3 year school. I wonder if UofC (being a 3 year school) would be in the same boat?

 

Does this mean the Mac and UofC med grads can't do residency or practice in the US?

[A-Stark]

They are both fully LCME/CACMS-accredited like every other Canadian school.

[TonesRN]

Does this mean the Mac and UofC med grads can't do residency or practice in the US?

 

A classmate of mine from Mac matched in the US and is currently doing residency at Harvard.

 

You are at NO disadvantage at being in a 3 yr program.

[thebouque]

As people already mentioned they are fully accredited and the liaison committee has members from both Canada and the US. Also 3 years schools exist in the US so there's no reason that they wouldn't recognize a Canadian school because of the length of its program.

[NewfieMike]

A classmate of mine from Mac matched in the US and is currently doing residency at Harvard.

 

You are at NO disadvantage at being in a 3 yr program.

 

what specialty?

 

just curious

[TonesRN]

what specialty?

 

just curious

 

Emergency Medicine.

[leviathan]

Mac is actually pretty well known and respected in internal med in the US because of all the research they publish.

[iheartmed]

Calgary is definitely as good as other schools. Our program is only 10 weeks shorter than our more traditional neighbor to the North. Most of this time is elective time. This makes it a little more difficult when trying to match to a competitive specialty. The only other thing is that we do a lot of self-directed learning. For example, I am interested in surgery so I have taken the time to expand on the anatomy teaching we received. I think overall our histology, embryology and pathology teaching is focused but appropriate.

 

I'm very happy with the U of C.

[mm88]

Mac is actually pretty well known and respected in internal med in the US because of all the research they publish.

 

Then where did these rumours come from? *sigh*

 

I guess I should stop believing everything people tell me.

[meds400]

The reality is really quite simple - there is just no such thing as a "bad" medical school in Canada. Unless you are one of those people with a 4.0/45T/Olympic Gold Medal, you should be happy to get into any school that accepts you (Mac, Calg, NOSM, UBC, Memorial, etc...)....Calgary and Mac are going to do just as good a job in turning you into a great doctor as any other med school in Canada.

[tooty]

the problem with discussions like this thread is we all have our own idealistic qualities of a 'good' medical school. i'd say a good med school prepares strong carms candidates. residency is where we truly train for our respective specialties. the checks and balances during med school will make sure we're relatively competent up to that point.

 

saying 'school x prepares good doctors' is like telling a premed 'there are far more qualified med school applicants than there are seats.' in other words, it's useless. these fluffy facts should be a given. what's important is how well the students match. judging from recent statistics, u of c students were actually disadvantaged in carms. carms mentioned this. u of c even announced it. this kind of information shouldn't be ignored over comments like 'every med school is great.'

 

and before every u of c student start laying on the hate, i'll reiterate that i'd go to u of c if i could do it over again and given the choice.

[meds400]

the problem with discussions like this thread is we all have our own idealistic qualities of a 'good' medical school. i'd say a good med school prepares strong carms candidates. residency is where we truly train for our respective specialties. the checks and balances during med school will make sure we're relatively competent up to that point.

 

saying 'school x prepares good doctors' is like telling a premed 'there are far more qualified med school applicants than there are seats.' in other words, it's useless. these fluffy facts should be a given. what's important is how well the students match. judging from recent statistics, u of c students were actually disadvantaged in carms. carms mentioned this. u of c even announced it. this kind of information shouldn't be ignored over comments like 'every med school is great.'

and before every u of c student start laying on the hate, i'll reiterate that i'd go to u of c if i could do it over again and given the choice.

 

 

 

That is a bit of a silly thing to say - over 40 years, U of C had one significant "less than average" year of caRMS matching (2010) which even still correlated almost the same to the other medical schools in Canada. Hearing from student affairs, this had much more to do with poor selection strategies by certain students than anything else - something that is being corrected for right now (i.e., even though we are first year students, we are now already getting "classes" on what to expect for caRMS and strategies to match to our first choices). I hardly think you can make a sweeping generalizing that U of C students are disadvantaged in caRMS based on one year of statistics (for instance, Queen's had the lowest % first round match in 2011 but you don't hear me say that Queen's puts their students at a caRMS disadvantage)...

 

http://www.ucalgary.ca/mdprogram/prospective/nationalranking

 

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2011R1_MatchResults/10_Match%20Results%20by%20Choice%20Discipline%20and%20Medical%20School_en.pdf

[LostLamb]

That is a bit of a silly thing to say - over 40 years, U of C had one significant "less than average" year of caRMS matching (2010) which even still correlated almost the same to the other medical schools in Canada. Hearing from student affairs, this had much more to do with poor selection strategies by certain students than anything else - something that is being corrected for right now (i.e., even though we are first year students, we are now already getting "classes" on what to expect for caRMS and strategies to match to our first choices). I hardly think you can make a sweeping generalizing that U of C students are disadvantaged in caRMS based on one year of statistics (for instance, Queen's had the lowest % first round match in 2011 but you don't hear me say that Queen's puts their students at a caRMS disadvantage)...

 

http://www.ucalgary.ca/mdprogram/prospective/nationalranking

 

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2011R1_MatchResults/10_Match%20Results%20by%20Choice%20Discipline%20and%20Medical%20School_en.pdf

 

you beat me to the punch, but stated it much more eloquently that I would have.

 

Carms matching is not solely the responsibility of the school and not solely the responsibility of the student--it sits somewhere in between and from what I understand from those who have gone through the process, everyone at every school needs to "work" the process to their greatest advantage.

[tooty]

That is a bit of a silly thing to say - over 40 years, U of C had one significant "less than average" year of caRMS matching (2010) which even still correlated almost the same to the other medical schools in Canada. Hearing from student affairs, this had much more to do with poor selection strategies by certain students than anything else - something that is being corrected for right now (i.e., even though we are first year students, we are now already getting "classes" on what to expect for caRMS and strategies to match to our first choices). I hardly think you can make a sweeping generalizing that U of C students are disadvantaged in caRMS based on one year of statistics (for instance, Queen's had the lowest % first round match in 2011 but you don't hear me say that Queen's puts their students at a caRMS disadvantage)...

 

http://www.ucalgary.ca/mdprogram/prospective/nationalranking

 

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2011R1_MatchResults/10_Match%20Results%20by%20Choice%20Discipline%20and%20Medical%20School_en.pdf

 

it has been the last 2 years iirc. but i hope you're right and that things turn around this upcoming match. that would be awesome for u of c. i understand i'm splitting hairs here if we're talking about internal. but for ophtho, i argue that i'm not.

[TheBoss]

I'm going to have to agree with tooty on the point that there's little purpose in a discussion like this to say that UofC prepares good doctors, as even if they are all good, some may give different results than others. It is the difference (or lack thereof) among them that is the point of discussion, not overall quality.

 

It's not far fetched to say that students in 3-year med programs may have a harder time matching successfully than students in 4-year programs. I'd say it's comparable in some respects to premed students applying to med school. One reason why it's harder for 3rd year applicants is that they have had less time to accumulate ECs. Some 3rd year applicants still manage to have great ECs and do very well in admissions, but that does not negate the idea that it is generally harder to do well in admissions as a 3rd year, rather than 4th. Just as with CaRMS, the quality of the individual applicant is the most important factor, but that doesn't mean we have to ignore all other factors.

 

But as far as UofC vs other school in carms, i actually have no idea.

[cardiomegaly]

 

It's not far fetched to say that students in 3-year med programs may have a harder time matching successfully than students in 4-year programs. I'd say it's comparable in some respects to premed students applying to med school. One reason why it's harder for 3rd year applicants is that they have had less time to accumulate ECs. Some 3rd year applicants still manage to have great ECs and do very well in admissions, but that does not negate the idea that it is generally harder to do well in admissions as a 3rd year, rather than 4th. Just as with CaRMS, the quality of the individual applicant is the most important factor, but that doesn't mean we have to ignore all other factors.

 

Good analogy.

 

As to CaRMs stats I prefer the first ranked location over discipline as a comparison:

 

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2011R1_MatchResults/9_Match%20Results%20by%20First%20and%20Lower%20Ranked%20Program%20Choices_en.pdf

 

I stand by my belief that the sole disadvantage to a 3 year program is having to choose and complete more than half your clerkship electives before you've done a single core rotation. Cores will honestly change your perspective on different specialties. On preclinical knowledge and total clerkship core rotation time 3 year med schools are on even footing with 4th year programs.

[Erk]

We lern tons of stuf at U of C liek I can tell what a hart is and how it can "beet" so we can compet with any of u othr schols.

 

 

 

 

Seriously though, I do feel the crunch for residency selection and electives, but personally from conversations with residents I have a feeling that even if there were a huge difference in lecture education time, I don't think lecture education time really matters that much. What we really need we'll be learning on the wards; trying for a few more months to cram more of it into our brains would only go so far.

 

If we do suffer on CaRMs, which statistically we haven't done except for an outlier year (the school may not be the only variable in play there), it's because students have to decide their residency of choice and build up a portfolio in a lot less time. If I want to match to EM I don't have a lot of opportunity to think about it and start researching things and making a name for myself unless I decide about now, only a little way into 1st year.