very curious facts on GPA & MCAT

[Guest erolaivas]

hi!

 

i noticed on this board and others MANY students from canadian universities rejected by canadian medical schools and still their GPA is above 3.8 and MCAT is above 35.

my question: with these metrics, ANY top tier (harvard, UofP, yale, JH, dartmouth, columbia, cornell, stanford, you name...) US medical school would desperately want you. 3.67 and 34 give you access to any of these medical schools

we do not talk here about money.

are the american schools so weak that their students do not get good GPA or MCAT ? are the canadian students so brilliant they by far surpass their american counterparts ? or are there other reasons ?

thank you very much for your help in understanding this situation.

erolaivas@yahoo.com

[Guest Liana]

I think there are a few factors that help to explain the difference between admissions to American and Canadian med schools.

 

American "top-tier" schools, as you said, will be quite welcoming to anyone with a 3.67 and 34 MCAT. These schools have a greater tendency to admit students based solely on traditional markers of success like marks and MCAT. Some Canadian schools (UT, Ottawa) have even higher standards (~3.8 GPA, but lower MCAT requirements) that must be met by undergrad applicants before they can receive interviews, but this by no means guarantees a spot.

 

However, if you have other experience (including a Master's degree) these academic requirements are lowered at these schools. Schools like McMaster claim to have lower academic requirements in general, although you have to be a stellar applicant in non-academic aspects to benefit from this.

 

I think ultimately why so many stellar applicants get rejected is partially due to Canada's higher emphasis on non-academic traits, but more importantly, due to the much lower success rate for Canadian applicants in general. In the US, there are 3 applicants for every med school seat. In Canada, there are 4 for every seat, but in ultra-competitive Ontario, there are 8 for every seat. Thus, schools like UT and Ottawa must impose insanely high GPA cutoffs just to receive an interview; since they interview at least twice as many applicants as they accept, you're guaranteed to have hundreds of well-qualified applicants who received interviews being rejected.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

Just to add to this, I heard an interesting, related perspective from one of the UofT Faculty of Medicine Vice Deans at a health conference this past week. It's related in that it perhaps, helps to support the reason for the trend towards greater emphasis on the non-academic sector of the medical school application (especially in Canadian schools).

 

To paraphrase, she mentioned that, more than ever before, physicians are absolutely required to be exceptional communicators. Having performed numerous studies in the US, she and her colleagues found that it was communication skills which were the prime factor in determining whether a patient was satisfied with their visit to the doctor's office. (This is of prime importance to the majority of large insurers and other bodies in the States, to the point that some physicians' remuneration (10% in some cases) is based on the results of patient satisfaction surveys.)

 

Physicians are no longer patriarchal bearers of baskets of knowledge; patients routinely now enter the doctor's office with pages of printouts from the internet, and feel comfortable stepping forward and challenging a doctor's opinion if called into question. As such, today's physicians, communication-wise, seem to have a bit of a different meal laid out on their plates than their predecessors.

 

Interesting, eh?

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest erolaivas]

you wrote :

"I think ultimately why so many stellar applicants get rejected is partially due to Canada's higher emphasis on non-academic traits, but more importantly, due to the much lower success rate for Canadian applicants in general. In the US, there are 3 applicants for every med school seat. In Canada, there are 4 for every seat, but in ultra-competitive Ontario, there are 8 for every seat. Thus, schools like UT and Ottawa must impose insanely high GPA cutoffs just to receive an interview; since they interview at least twice as many applicants as they accept, you're guaranteed to have hundreds of well-qualified applicants who received interviews being rejected. "

 

if the medical schools impose GPA cutoffs, than the non-academic traits do not apply (this is the meaning of "cutoff" !!, the candidates with nice non-academics do not make to that stage when their non-academicals may be considered). at top tier usa schools the ratio is much higher that the canadian one. so it is not the non-academic traits.

at the same time in usa they talk loudly about inflated grades. is this a problem with canadian ones ?

in usa the top tier schools apply special algorithms for converting the gpa's based on the undergraduate schools reputation. and mcat is king !

am i wrong ?

[Guest erolaivas]

if there is a cutoff, the candidates with very nice non-academicals do not make to that stage, because they are cutoff based on their gpa. so, non-academicals count when there candidates with close gpa and/w mcat.

in the states they openly talk about grade inflation. is this the case in canada?

and do not forget: in usa there more doctors that immigrated ! and their english cannot be as natural as the one educated in usa. it is much easier for a recent immigrant to get an internship in usa. look at the immigrants in canada: they go an get their internships in usa. so communication is extremely important but doesn't apply to my curiosity.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

I wonder what Rick Mercer would have to say about this topic. . .

[Guest Thewonderer]

With 3.67 and 34 MCAT, one is not guaranteed (or even have a greater than 20% chance) to get into an American top-tier school. Under-represented minorities, applicants with superstar research background and people with significant life experiences often get in with lower numbers and that kind of evens the numbers out in the end. But if you are just graduating from university, are white or asian, have done some research and some EC's, but have not helped open a clinic in South America, it is still better to have 3.8 and 36 when you apply. Granted, with any types of number or life experiences, one can still get in. Who knows? It never hurts to try!

 

Grade inflations... That's hard to say. I went straight down to the US for college right after highschool. But my friends at UBC and Queen's undergrad have no trouble pulling down >85% (A) or even >90% (A+) average while studying biochem, microbio, chemistry, engineering, etc. So who knows the real answer? Lots of people complaint about how tough Canadian schools' grading systems are. But you look at the posters on this board or even at the applicant GPA profile at UBC med admissions website, plenty of people have at least 80% average (A-) overall. People at my undergrad school in the US also complaint about the grading. They were saying how unfair it is to have students from magnet highschools and elite boarding schools going to the same college and compete for a limited number of A's. Yet, when I took a look at the profiles of applicants in my school's premed office, I saw many premeds applying with 3.7+ average.

[Guest E Coli]

If you think these elite schools are easier to get into, then by all means apply to them. By the way, have fun paying for it all and have even more fun getting a visa for residency in the US or applying as a US grad in Carms. A lot of American med schools do not accept non-US citizens/permanent residents (check their web sites). On top of that, just like Canada, public schools have in-state residency requirements. Although private schools do not discriminate between state residence, a lot of these schools take students who come from ultra competitive undergrad colleges. Again, if you think going that route is easy, try getting into a competitve undergrad. An Ontario resident can complain how much easier it would be to get in if he was from Sask, but all the complaining won't get him anywhere in the end.

 

Apply, get in, then come back to this forum and tell us how easy it was for you. We can all hold hands together and have a great big laugh.

[Guest erolaivas]

the person i am thinking of is in the final undergrad year at cornell, has an gpa of 3.5, is on the dean's list, etc, etc. if you look at medical school's rankings (this year you cannot see them, because usnews started to ask for money) the average is 3.67 and 11.6 to get into harvard. with 3.67 you cannot get into any canadian medical school!

i stated that we do not talk here about money.

and i talked only about top-tier, and there you find private schools, not state schools.

so let's keep the discussion between the fences we defined.

[Guest erolaivas]

i am sorry, in one of my postings i just said that the majority of new immigrants to canada go to usa for their residency. in usa they have 15000 graduates and 18000 seats in residency programs. so getting a visa is not so difficult.

[Guest JD]

You can get into many medical schools in Canada with a 3.67. McMaster, Queen's, and Western have cutoffs all below that figure. Plus even with "high GPA" schools like U of T and Ottawa, they might drop your worst year, or consider graduate applicants in a different way (little focus on marks, much greater emphasis on publications, etc.).

[Guest E Coli]

Come now, are you really that naive?? Wow, I'm surprised you made this far! McMaster claims that you need a minimum of 3.0, but I haven't met anyone who got an interview at Mac, let alone get accepted with that low of a GPA. I did my undergrad at Mac so I met quite a few people there. First of all, what makes a school "tough" to get into is selectivity, i.e. number of applicants vs. number of acceptances. According to US News & World Report, Harvard's acceptance was 4.5%. Can you think of even one Canadian school with that low of acceptance? Before you cite statistics, remember that med schools accept more people then the number that actually matriculate, since some lucky individuals get multiple acceptances. But you knew that already. By the way, Boston University (a private school) has a very mediocre reputation and they receive over 10,000 applications for only 100 spots or so, so don't think you can waltz in their either with a 3.7 or whatever.

 

As far as your visa myth goes, many of those so called "foreign" graduates are actually US citizens who were rejected by American schools and went to the Caribbean or wherever. Even so, visas are temporary and when they expire a person must leave the US. Again, do a web search of residency programs that are actually willing to sponser students on a visa and see for yourself.

 

True, getting into the US maybe easier than Canada overall, but tell that to someone who lives in California where there are over 30 million people with less than 10 med schools (I think) - in any event, it's much lower than Canada's 16 med schools with roughly the same poplulation.

 

You obviously have never applied to medical school in the US yet. I hope you get into Canada (if that's what you want) so you don't have to find out the hard way.

[Guest Applicant]

Getting into an American school as a Canadian citizen is not easy at all. You're limited to private schools only, and most of them need to see that you can give them 4 year's tuition up front.

 

However, getting in to an American school as an American citizen is really not a big deal at all (36,000 applicants for 16,000 spots). Of course if you're focused only on applying to Harvard, Duke, etc. then you're asking for trouble, but if you can apply to a wide range of schools you don't exactly have to be Albert Einstein or Mother Teresa to get in.

[Guest erolaivas]

did you read the initial posting ? there some medical school names. did you read them ?

the posting was very clear what medical schools we are talking about.

the subject was: it is very clear that with the gpa and mcat canadian medical schools reject you, the ivy league medical schools will accept you.

why ?

[Guest erolaivas]

try to talk to somebody from the eastern european immigrant community and they will explain you that the problem is the very limited number of seats in canada for that internship. in usa there 18000 seats and 15000 new graduates from medical school. so it is not about american citizens!

it is not elegant to try to divert (or do it openly!) the subject i posted.

[Guest aneliz]

Hey erolaivus,

 

I'm a bit confused. Are you asking about getting into med school or getting a residency?

 

It is true that there are more residency spots in the US than there are new grads. Hence it is easier to get a residency position as a 'foreign medical graduate' in the states than in Canada based on the numbers alone. Whether this is true in practice or not is another story and one that I don't feel that I am qualified to comment on! I have never looked at the actual stats as to how many foreign med grads get 'good' or desirable residency positions in the states vs Canada.

 

As for med schools, many Canadian schools do not take foreign students. Similarly, many state schools in the US do not take foreign students. In the states both Canadian and international students are limited to applying to the private schools, many of which are 'ivy league'. The difference between Canada and the States is that in Canada, THERE AREN'T any big name, big money private schools! Imagine what med school admissions would look like in the states if you removed ALL of the private schools from the picture and left only the state funded schools running. I think that you would quickly see that the admissions game would look very similar, if not identical to the Canadian one!

 

Now, my guess as to why the entrance GPA/MCAT for 'ivy league' schools is seemingly lower than that for many Canadian schools.

 

1. Private schools are expensive in the extreme. University education in general is very expensive in the states. Therefore, to some degree, I think that the applicant pool is partially limited by the $ factor - the richest kids are not necessarily the smartest kids! (I am sure that I will have abuse hurled at me for that one! )

 

2. Suppy and demand. Due to the number of med school places, the 'cut-offs' are lower. This doesn't mean that less qualified people are getting in, rather that more of the qualified students that apply are able to be offered places.

 

Ways to make the Canadian situation identical to the American:

 

1. Increase tuition through the roof to limit the applicant pool to those with $$$.

 

2. Open numerous private institutions in addition to the existing public ones and let them admit as many international students as they want.

 

Then you will have a med school situation that is exactly like the US!

The End.

[Guest strider2004]

A 3.7 GPA and 35 MCAT does'nt NOT guarantee you a spot in any of the top tier med schools in the US. Grades are only a small part of the applications package. There is an introductory essay as well as an interview which counts for a large portion of your final score. I did try applying to Harvard and Stanford(for fun) and didn't even receive a secondary application from Stanford. I had a 3.87 GPA at 34P MCAT. Harvard turned me down after a secondary application(they send it to everybody). Your application is looked at from top to bottom, looking at what you've done in the past as well as your parents' histories(ie. Is your father an alumnus as this school?) The name of your undergraduate school is also important. A Harvard undergraduate has a better chance applying to an ivey league school than does somebody from Canada(unless you're from UBC, Toronto or McGill).

 

What I do know about Harvard is that its application pool is self-selecting. What that means is you wouldn't apply to Harvard unless you felt you had a decent chance of getting in. Harvard only has about 3000 applications each year but all of them probably have fairly good grades. It's not the 4.0 that gets you into med school, it's the rest of you. US schools also typically interview more students so again, it's not just your GPA that counts.

 

There are extra residency spots in Canada as well. There are probably around 150 spots available to foreign graduates(in the 2nd round match). If you standardize for population, it's nearly the same as the US situation.

[Guest erolaivas]

thank you very much for all your contributions!

i am happy that people discuss. this is nice.

 

what i wanted to say is that:

-in usa the gpa and mcat are the determinant factors in admission into a medical school. it is a cutoff, and if you do not make it, you may have stellar activity, they do not reach the point to analyze your activity!

-i consider that tests like mcat have more objectivity that gpa or various activities (same as sat compared against the marks in the high school !); we must be realistic, which school offers better chances, earl haig in toronto or a school lost somewhere in space; i am very sorry, i do not say this is good, it is sad that we cannot have all the schools on the same level !). hey, does anybody want to go to a lost in space place and help establish a very good high school !?!

-there are many more undergrad students with very high gpa in canada than in usa (even normalized to the population)

-it is very positive that usa schools take into account the reputation of the undergrad school

 

correct, a richer kid is not smarter that a poorer one! but i

know students in ivy league and they are stellar, and very well behaved!

and i talked continously about top private medical schools, not about state ones. the private top ones (about 15-20) accept people from all over the world, the problem, besides money, is that if you are not an usa legal -green card or citizen- resident you will suffer because the residents have priority (in the same range of appreciation, the resident will be chosen).

 

there are only 8 ivy league schools.

mentioning the internship happened because somebody raised this subject... and because there are more seats in usa, the canadian immigrants from eastern europe go to usa to get their studies recognized. canada doesn't need them ! in fact many canadian medical trained persons go to usa ! more money !?!

 

thank you again, and let's go on!