Long Hard Road (or??)

[Guest Skg7]

Ok- this is not going to be your typical posting. See, I'm 27 and have no science in my background whatsoever. I have a BA (with Great Distinction/First in my class) in Communication Studies from Concordia in Montreal, but I didn't even take high school sciences beyond grade 10. And now, I find myself passionate about medical school and becoming a doctor. I know McMaster's (technically) doesn't require science or even an MCAT, but I spoke with oneof their graduates who said I'd have a slim chance of getting in and getting through the program without the usual science background. I certainly don't mind taking some biology and chemistry, but here's my problem; in order to take the pre-requisites for, say, UBC, I'd have to take a tonne more "pre-pre-requisites" going back to high school level. This would take 2 to 3 years, and more importantly, much money that I don't have.

Does anyone know someone who was in my shoes and found a way through? I'm not sure what I'm hoping to hear... just reaching out, I guess, from this mountain of discouraging and confusing details.

[Guest Ian Wong]

I wish I knew someone who'd been in your type of situation, but I don't. Not even having high school science is probably, I would think, going to be a big hit against you.

 

I assume that it would be difficult to register for undergraduate science courses without the high school background, although perhaps that's not the case if you aren't registering for a science degree, but rather just wanted to take selected courses like Biology and Chemistry.

 

However, I've got to ask you whether you think you would really excel in university sciences without having had the foundations from high school. I think you have to put in a lot of work to survive med school, and in particular, the students in my class in the first two years who entered without a great deal of previous experience in the sciences (ie. they did the UBC med science pre-reqs along with their Arts degrees) had to work much harder at many points along the road.

 

You are one step even greater, in that you don't even have those med school pre-reqs, to say nothing of the high school courses which are usually pre-requisite to those pre-reqs... This doesn't mean that you aren't capable of handling med school, but I don't see any evidence of handling sciences in the background that you've given us.

 

The long and the short of it is that I really don't have any answers for you because I don't know of anyone in your situation. However, I think to maximise your chances of entering medical school, you would want to prove to the admissions committee that you can handle the science workload. Otherwise, there are going to have to be some very compelling reasons in the rest of your application profile for them to select you over another applicant with a strong academic science background.

 

You probably don't want to hear this, but this could well mean going back to university and taking those med school science pre-requisites. I think the big benefit of this is that it opens you to applying to many of the other Canadian medical schools, rather then putting as much weight on medical schools such as McMaster, where there are no science pre-requisites. Also, without those pre-requisite courses, you are putting yourself at a severe disadvantage should you try to write the MCAT.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest skg7]

Thanks for your response, Ian. I had actually already been through the same thought process myself (a million times) but I think I just needed to hear someone else who's in the system confirm the realities for me.

I will inevitably need to go back and take the science pre-req's at UBC or elsewhere, and I unfortunately will likely need to start with high school science first. It's this last part that is most unappealing, simply in terms of time.

But as long as I can pull decent grades throughout this work, i think I have a strong chance. The fact of the matter is that my BA speaks very well to my ability to handle intense workloads with above-average results.

In any case, good luck to you and your classmates this year, and congratulations on this site; it's a great and needed resource.

[Guest gucio93]

Hi skg7!

I don't entirely agree with your friends comments that Mac will not accept science students and that it would be impossible to get through the programme. I have spoken to a friend who is on the faculty (and I know of people who got in and made it without any science backgroud). Yes! it probably will be difficult, but I have heard from many people that the learning curve is amazing and it does apply to people with, let's say an arts background. I would still advise you to try a couple of science courses - to see if you like them and if you can handle them. However, if you are as passionate as you say, I would still take a chance of applying to Mac (providing you like the PBL/self-directed learning/small group approach, you have the grades, and you have a rich life experience. Good luck.

[Guest anon]

I was in a simular position to you, except I did have high school science. I returned to school at age 30 to do my prereques. In my case I returned full-time to do them so I could get student loans and get into med school before I was 40. I recieved a nimber of interviews, MAC included, and I didn't end up going to MAC.

I don't realily see any reason for you to bother taking the high school courses. The quality of high schools is so inconsistent that universities assume that you have no preparation for first year science courses and design the course for people with no science backgrounds. You are much better off just putting a little extra work into your college courses.

I would strongly suggest that if you really want to go to med school you take your prereques and write the MCATs. None of the courses are that hard if you apply yourself and it is a definate advantage to apply to many schools. You should take heart in the fact that many schools, besides Mac, will look very favourablely on your background once you do complete the prereques.

[Guest Ian Wong]

My thoughts were to take the high school courses if you would need to have them before taking the university courses. If you were doing a complete degree at university, I'm sure there are high school pre-reqs, but if you are just taking selected courses and not a degree, I don't know whether you need to have those high school courses.

 

I think you should apply to Mac (and prepare yourself for a long, hard climb to master the sciences should you get in), but you should also take those science pre-reqs which not only helps prepare you to write the MCAT, but has the additional bonus of opening you up to applying to many other Canadian med schools.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest fdsa]

I know of a coworker, got his BS in Nursing who got into Mac for the class of 2004. He didn't take the MCAT nor had any of his science courses (other than the basic courses required in nursing, which isn't much) and is doing well in med school. I would just like to dispel the myth that you need oodles of science courses in order to understand the med school curriculum. A well-rounded education, whether in the arts or sciences is much more important than the particular field in which you study for undergrad. Anyone with a bit of intelligence and a lot of drive can overcome the med school curriculum.

[Guest MEDCOMPSCI]

Please don't generalize that all of the other schools are as doable for someone without any science background. Unlike Mac, at most schools people will not be on average 28 years old and have no science/MCATs; they will be from science backgrounds and around 23 years old. In order to keep up, if you have no science background, you need to be ablet o work that much harder to keep up with your classmates.

 

 

Mac is a very different school. Without sounding mean, it is very very skwed to help produce family doctors (hence the older age/PBL stuff; how many 32 year olds want to spend another 5 as opposed to 2 doing residency?). As such, they will have differnet requirements as opposed to the other schools.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hey there medcompsci,

 

On generalizations, this 32 year-old most likely will be opting for a non-GP specialization. Beware--there are always exceptions to the exceptions!

 

Enjoy anatomy tomorrow,

Kirsteen

[Guest MEDCOMPSCI]

Point well taken Kirsteen. I guess the best thing to say is that generalizations can lead to trouble. I am with Ian; unless Mac is your ONLY choice, you are better off with at least a little science under your belt.

 

BTW - Can you just tell them that you don't want to be surgeon and skip out on some of the anatomy stuff?

[Guest skg7]

Well, thank you all very much! It's so good to read all of these replies, even if the feedback is different in each of them. I think the main lesson to take from this is that everyone's experience is different when it comes to med schools and to prior learning.

I have resolved to take a number of science courses, though I'm having a hell of a time finding them (let me in! just wanna take a few biology and chem classes!)here in Montreal or (via Internet research) in Vancouver. Fact of the matter is that I can't quit work right now and will have to take these classes slowly, at night. Very frustrating, when all I really want is to be *in* medical school already. Unfortunately, my research so far indicates that most colleges/universities will not let me take the courses I want without going back to get the high school pre-req's first; this is what Ian understood, I think, in his first reply.

In any case, I'm on the path and will certainly begin with the intention of completing all necessary courses to apply at UBC and perhaps others, but I really do have my eye on MAC. Family medicine is my aim, anyhow, so the comment about MAC being perhaps oriented towards family practice sits well with me.

Thanks a lot, everyone, and good luck to all.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Actually, in some conversations with Carolyn, a second year Mac med student, it came up that Mac doesn't send as many people into primary care as I'd thought. In fact, if you go by percentages, UBC actually sent more people into family medicine this year than McMaster. Something to think about. The relevant URL is here:

 

pub44.ezboard.com/fpremed101frm25.showMessage?topicID=34.topic

 

And yeah, there's a lot of hoops to jump before entering medical school. An awful lot. You just have to examine yourself, shadow as many doctors as possible, and decide if it's the life course you wish to pursue. Then do it.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Joey Joe Joe]

My 2 cents.

 

I wouldn't suggest trying to go to medical school without a science background. Even if you do make it in, you would be at a big disadvantage, med school is hard enough without starting in the hole. (For those who've been there, imagine going through biochem with no chemistry background whatsoever..."what's C-C mean?")

 

If it were me I'd prepare for 2 years of catching up. I'd go to a province with good med schools and fairly good prospects of getting in as a resident. that way you can apply as a resident of your province of origin and this new province. Then I'd take two years of pre-med science. I imagine you could start at first year level if you do some convincing and some self study before class starts. Then take the MCAT April or August after your second (and last) year. That way, if you do very well in your classes, you are gaurenteed a spot in med school (you said you did well in your previous undergrad work right? and you'd be very non-traditional.) In these 2 years you can get your community/clinical experience too.

 

I know 2 years is a lot of commitment but hey- you said you are passionate about medicine and I see no way of doing it without this. I wouldn't look for shortcuts.

 

Good luck to you.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Just remember that there's no such thing as a guaranteed spot in medical school. You can certainly increase your admissions chances by having a great academic, research, and extracurricular background, but there's no assurance that you will be selected when there are so many other well-qualified applicants out there.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest skg7]

Ian, your optimism is overwhelming...........

But seriously, I appreciate your candor, even as it implies your belief that those submitting questions like mine are naive. Did you ever think that there was such a thing as a "guaranteed spot" in med school? I didn't think so - neither did I.

Still, it has been very helpful, all in all, to read the variety of responses. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond.

[Guest monkey]

I know people who entered medicine at UBC from arts and its true that it is much tougher. They found that as well as taking med pre reqs taking courses such as physiology is very useful as well too. However.....

 

I recently met an internist who did a BA and spent two or three years working in a hotel before even "deciding" to go to medical school. Although a challenging road, I think it might be worth it if you really feel passionate about medicine. You are 27. There some who start med school well after that. Good luck!

[Guest Ian Wong]

Hi skg7,

 

There was no implication in my response that I thought your question was naive. In fact, I was responding to the post immediately above that one, where Joey Joe Joe states:

 

"That way, if you do very well in your classes, you are gaurenteed a spot in med school (you said you did well in your previous undergrad work right? and you'd be very non-traditional.)"

 

I just wanted to chip in my two cents that you can never really know until you've applied whether you'll be accepted. Too many of my good friends (who I feel are excellently qualified and would make exceptional doctors) have been rejected during their application attempts for me to believe that the admissions process is that predictable.

 

No hard feelings, 'kay.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Joey Joe Joe]

Ian,

 

Who do you think you are to.......

 

Just kidding. On hindsight you're right, medical school admissions is too unpredictable to ever be guaranteed success. But my suggestion still stands, with the alteration that with that plan he/she would be giving themselves the best possible chance of success.

 

But this discussion has made me realize how depressing and stressful being a 'premed' is. It seems self destructive to dream of being a doctor, fuel that dream throughout undergrad and never know until that letter comes that it's paid off. Its not like there are even back up options.... physio, optometry, vet med and similar professional health care fields are just as competetive. If there was not such a stereotype against male nurses, I would definately look into that as a career.

 

I consider myself very lucky have dual US-Can citizenship. So I can apply to US MD schools, DO schools, and if I decided to go to a foriegn school it will be easier being American.

[Guest skg7]

Hey Ian (and all),

 

I see where you were going with the "no guaranteed spots in med school" thread. Sorry I ignited a little ember of tension on that one - I think it's just my sense of semi-powerlessness in all of this that got me down.

In the meantime, I'm taking a step back to consider the whole thing from several perspectives for a few months. I have resolved that I will not try any short-cuts, which means several years of pre-req work. The whole journey, assuming I eventually got in to med school, would ential about 9 or 10 years. So, now I have to assess just how badly I want it! This is something that no one can help me with, unfortunately. But you guys have helped me to sort through the "how Do I proceed and what would I have to do?" stage. Thanks for that. This forum is an invaluable resource for pre-meds and pre-pre-meds alike!

[Guest MSax35]

Just wanted to add my two cents as well... 27 is not that old! I know that to a lot of premeds in this forum, that seems really old, but it's not. I don't think you need to feel in such a major rush that you can't do some science work first - remember, you already have a degree so it's not like you have to stick around for 4 more years to get a BSc. Just do one or two years of heavy-duty sciences, then go for it.

 

I am 35 (yes, that IS old) and just started back full-time taking basic sciences in prep for applying next year. Do I wish that, given my age, I could just skip this step and get admitted without wasting another year or two? Absolutely, ... but, I really think I need these two years (at least) to prepare me for med school. Like you, it took some input from people on these types of forums, and some major soul searching to get my head around that. It's like you wake up one morning when you are in your 30s and suddenly know with absolute certainty what you want to do "when you grow up" The idea of putting off the process for another couple of years while you take general science courses is painful to say the least!!!

 

But, now that I am immersed in genetics, anatomy & physiology, chem and psych (while self-learning organic and physics), I can't imagine not doing some of this stuff before meds anyway. A bonus for me has been how having such a tangible goal has made these science courses much more interesting! Hopefully that will translate into a really good GPA and MCAT scores.

 

My suggestion would be to sit back for a bit, decide if this is really what you want to do, then take a deep breath and go for it. I would suggest as a first step - getting as up to date as you can on all of the requirements for the schools you are interested in. Then explore your options (ie. Plan A, Plan in terms of preparing yourself. If you are really good at self-learning and very disciplined, then that may be an option. If, like most of the rest of us, you find it easier to learn stuff through a more traditional route, then find the program that works best for you and go for it.

 

Someone said to me that all jouneys of 10,000 km start with a single step - and that is so true. Sorry this post was so long - Good luck!

[Guest Carolyn]

Hi Ian et al.

 

It's been awhile since I've been on the site but I'm glad to see it is still so active.

 

I am currently in my 2nd year at Mac and started at Mac at 27 (around the avg age for my class). There are a lot of people in my class with no science background and a lot with very specialized science backgrounds... each comes with a variety of challenges... those with no science background have a lot of language and basic concepts to learn. The first couple of months are really challenging for them... and the learning curve is huge.

 

At the most recent info session for Applicants the admissions chair said that the only correlate they've found between Mac students and their success (I assume on the licensing exam) was if they did well in a math course... Medicine is a lot of logic... figuring out how the body works and where it goes wrong... if you like thinking that way then you'll probably really enjoy medicine. (I recognize that is very simplified but hey - generalizations are the norm on these sites!)

 

While Mac accepts applications from people with >3.00, it is very difficult to get an interview with a low mark. I think the avg entrance GPA this year was over 3.65...

 

From my observation, people who do well at Mac have a lot of curiousity, creativity and manage their time extremely well. It can be very anxiety provoking due to a lot less guidance than most programmes but if you are used to that (i.e. most careers provide that experience!) it isn't really so hard and can be a whole lot of fun! Often those who find it the most challenging are those who come straight out of a pure science background who aren't used to evaluating themselves and determining how in depth or how much to learn...

 

On a personal note, I had a business degree and worked for a while before i changed my career path. I spent 3 months in an adult highschool getting my sci OACs (I decided midyear) and then went back and ended up getting a B Sc (in 2 years because of transferring courses)... Aside from the basic sciences, I took some courses which have been invaluable... physiology, anatomy, genetics, immunology, embryology were fascinating and only served to cement the fact that medicine was what I wanted to do. They have also made being in medical school a whole lot easier. of note, I have a number of friends with science degrees that never took anatomy or some of the other more medicine-related courses.. (i.e. they may have done degrees in biochem or physics etc) -- in the end they aren't a lot farther ahead then those with no science background....

 

So what is my advice in all of this?? Definitely apply to Mac even if you don't have a science background --- and spend the time between now and then getting some science courses on your plate because they'll only help you in the end...

 

take care!

[Guest Carolyn]

Please don't make such generalized and incorrect statements about Mac. You obviously haven't done your research...

 

Lots of my classmates will go into specializations (even at the age of 32+...)

 

From my previous post from last year:

 

As you'll see from the numbers Mac actually has fewer grads going into family meds than Dal, Ottawa, Alberta and UBC! In fact, Mac students got some extremely competitive spots this year -> most of the people I know who graduated last year got into very competitive specialties like Emerg at Toronto, Surgery at Toronto, a number in Pediatrics etc.

 

Here are some stats from the 2001 CaRMS report:

 

What is most apparent to me is that it really doesn't make a Huge difference which school you go to... It is really up to you!

 

Matched to first choice discipline:

Mem: 88%

Dal: 87%

McGill 76%

Ottawa: 95%

Queen's: 89%

Toronto: 85%

McMaster: 92%

Western: 87%

Manitoba: 78%

Sask: 90%

Alb: 81%

Calg: 86%

BC: 84%

 

Memorial, McGill and Toronto have the highest proportion of their graduating class staying home for postgrad training, while Queen's Western and McMaster have the highest proportion of their graduates matched away for postgrad training.

 

The report also has a list of first choice disciplines by medical school - I won't write those out but if I write out family medicine, then you can probably get a good idea about how schools do in placing people in specialties when you combine them with the above scores...

 

Family Medicine as a First Choice by Medical School

 

Mem: 27.1%

Dal: 37.7%

McGill: 11.1%

Ottawa: 40.5%

Queen's: 17.8%

Toronto: 26.6%

McMaster: 32.3%

UWO: 27.1%

Manitoba: 22.2%

Sask: 31.6%

Alb: 34.3%

Calgary: 26.9%

UBC 35%

 

Interpret as you will and let me know if you want any specific #s... but please remember that you can get into any discipline you want from any school --- definitely!

[Guest Ian Wong]

Hi Carolyn,

 

Welcome back to the Premed101.com forums! I hope Mac is going well. Clerkships started for us this September, and I'm happy to be on the wards on a regular basis.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest ILoveThisMsgBoard]

wow!

 

You guys are soo active. I have not seen a premed board this active before. Ok, I read every single reply and am so happy that there is a board like this. Any whoo... I had a question regarding my chances of getting in. My major in college was really difficult for me ( Chemical Engineering) so I got only a b level gpa. I believe it was Ian who replied saying that you need a high gpa ie 3.6 to enter. I am really interested in getting into "MAC". So do you think my chances are shot!

also, I have been working for 2 years as a programmer now because of the good pay but I have always wanted to be a MD since highschool so I have been preparing for the mcat. I just recently started an EMT b course to get some sort of feel for medicine. Is there any thing I can do to boost my chances?

[Guest reahg]

i'm no expert but you may have to get a M.Sc. Just a couple more years I think. But its another chance at improving on your gpa.

good luck!