Admissions Rant

[EngrGuy]

Der Kaiser: Yes; part time employment IS an option for sure. But for what it's worth (effort vs income) I feel like it wouldn't be worth it. I would cut my effort in half to make 1/6 the of the income. If I did programming part time; I feel like that would even increase my stress / workload since I'd have to learn a whole new system and keep my new bosses happy. As it is I work 12-8pm for a company in BC (from NS) so it's pretty flexible and gives me the mornings off for classes. I really hope I can do it; however if it comes a point where I need to decide between school and work - school will win and I will give my notice.

 

kpm: Thanks! Actually this forum is another huge reason for the boost of confidence to see other people going through application processes (and at an older age in this Non-Trad forum). So thanks

[aaronjw]

35 year old, went back to school this yr to upgrade GPA to make me more competitive for medical schools.

 

No 'wife' and no kids. Mortgage paid off and technically didn't need to work but still put in about 15hrs/week consulting because I enjoy the clients I work with.

 

Unless you have demonstrated somewhat gifted academic capabilities in the past I'd try to avoid the school + work thing in pursuing s second undergrad. If meds IS what you want to do, you'd be better off taking 2 years of working almost every possible hour you can to save up as much $ as possible. By then hopefully your wife is done school and has a job to help with the finances. Getting 85+ consistently is an entirely different beast as I've come to learn. It's just a different mind set and work ethic which really boils down to absolute time management skills and EFFICIENT study methods.

 

If you try to work while going to school and continue to not substantially increase GPA then you're waiting time and money as well as opportunity costs of advancing in your current career.

[10wattbulb]

Ok, you convinced me that Med school is really for you; I feel that if you can land an interview, the rest will be easy for you.

 

Now, if you do want to get accepted (sooner rather than later), you should really do research on all 14 English Med schools in Canada and try to apply as broadly as possible (even to some schools where you think your chances are practically non-existent; you can have some pleasant surprises). In Ontario, I feel that if you do well on the MCAT (especially on the Verbal Reasoning portion), then you could easily apply to McMaster even as of now (but you'll need a high VR score and a high CASPER score). At Western U., they look at your best 2 years in your honours degree to calculate your GPA; so if you do a 2nd undergrad and get a GPA of 3.7+, you got a good shot there too, providing you make their relatively high MCAT cut-offs. Your autobiographical sketch is probably going to be super awesome. At uOttawa, they have a funny way to calculate GPA (look at their website; the most recent year counts X3, 2nd most recent X2, 3rd most recent X1, after that X0), so if you do well in your 2nd undergrad by getting a GPA of 3.85+, you actually got a shot there too. And the MCAT is not considered at U of O. The point here is to do your research; it really pays off.

 

In your case, I feel that it's really just a question of raising your GPA up with a 2nd undergrad to give you more chances. But do study hard and take courses that you feel confident you can do well in. Do try and do very well on the MCAT (esp.VR); don't forget you can always retake it if your score is too low (although I think that Dalhousie frowns at premeders retaking the MCAT too many times; other schools usually don't). Also, realize that you might have to be very persistent to get in... Good luck!

[Der Kaiser]

Getting 85+ consistently is an entirely different beast as I've come to learn. It's just a different mind set and work ethic which really boils down to absolute time management skills and EFFICIENT study methods.

 

85+ really is a different beast. I had an 80% avg. on the nose with my first degree for a GPA of 3.52. This year I am looking at a GPA of 3.9, but the difference in work to achieve that 0.4 is phenomenal. I actually think a lot of profs design exams so that about 75-80% of the questions are straight forward but the remaining 20-25% are hard and require very high levels of understanding.

[Robin Hood]

Correction: McMasters reserves 90% of it's seats for Ontarians.

[EngrGuy]

aaronjw: I totally agree with you; I feel like I will just take it as it comes and if it ever becomes to much and I see my grades slide (before exam time) I'll get out of working or try and convince them to let me do it part time. My fiancee is trying to get into Med School too so she won't be working for a while haha. I have a friend who went back to school last 2 years around my age in order to get into Dal Dental; he's managed to get A+ in all his courses and has what I gauge as enough free time that I feel like I could do both (with 0 free time and minimal sleep). I agree it's not the best idea - but I'll try it out and get out of my employment before my GPA dips.

 

10wattbulb: Don't worry - persistence is my game (bordering on annoying persistence ). I've done a lot of research wrt to schools in Canada and have narrowed it down to Dal and UofC because currently I have none of the prereq courses for the other schools. Also their IP status gives me a leg up and I'm always willing to pickup and move. I did my undergrad at Lakehead so I've considered NOSM (since I'm from Northern Ontario and French) but they seem pretty strict with wanting people to still be living in the north (also they average ALL undergrad years which means additional GPA years will not be as beneficial). I didn't realize Dal frowned upon multiple MCATs... I have one scheduled for Sept 7th and was going to self study all summer... but since I might be taking those courses next term maybe I should wait?

 

Der Kaiser: Yes that's what I've heard from so many people.. that's why I was hoping to finish a second engineering degree as I feel like I could gain a better understanding in those courses instead of chem and ochem where I'd be struggling to gain any understand above what I've read for my MCATs.

 

Robin Hood: Is that for people currently living in Ontario or completed their undergrads there?

[MaeFleur]

What about moving to PEI or NB to help you out with IP advantages even more?

 

I've never heard of Dal only wanting upper year classes in your two most recent years (and I'm glad I didn't since all of my electives were first year bird courses, and I still got in!) I like what MyGPAsucks said about taking easy general courses first year then majoring in something easy (for me that would be psych/soc) for your next year and then applying every year after that to both Dal and Mun. I have this notion that Dal seems to like people who apply more than once, like it's a box or something that gets checked off on your application, but maybe that's just me telling myself that!

[EngrGuy]

That's interesting MaeFleur;

 

I had a meeting with a somebody at Dal Med Admissions and she was the one that told me they didn't accept certain things. I asked about Athabasca and she said no. I asked if I could take 1st year courses like Bio/Physics/Chem/OChem and she said that they would see in the assessment that I just went and did an extra year of 1st year courses so it wouldn't be looked upon as better GPA then my undergrad. She said they pretty much all had to be upper level courses. So who knows... Glad to hear about your story though. Makes me hopeful! PEI or NB is very advantageous for IP for Dal or MUN. But moving to Alberta is advantageous to their schools too; it's just difficult to know which move would have the best chances for me. I need to hire a statistician to figure it out for me

[10wattbulb]

Contrary to popular belief, NOSM doesn't necessarily want people still living in the North. You say you're from Northern Ontario and French on top of that. By all means, you should definitely apply to NOSM as a Francophone applicant who has had experience living in N.Ont.; they apparently love French applicants because they're looking for students to go work in rural French communities such as Kapuskasing. NOSM doesn't ask for the MCAT and, as far as I know, they don't have any prerequisite course requirements (neither does McMaster). Besides, they don't seem to care as much about IP status as other med schools do.

 

If you get a GPA of ~3.6 (class avg ~3.7) with your 2nd undergrad, you'd be quite competitive for NOSM. From NOSM's website: "For an applicant, applying as a Mature Student applicant, who has completed two undergraduate degrees, the GPA will be calculated on each of the degrees, and the best GPA will be used for scoring."

http://www.nosm.ca/education/ume/general.aspx?id=1232

 

Realize that at U of C, your chances of getting in are approx 1 in 12, and 85% of seats are reserved for residents of Alberta. So, it's not easier getting into U of C than, say, U of T.

 

Since you're currently in the Maritimes, Dalhousie is definitely your best bet as of now. But I don't advise you to count solely on Dalhousie and/or U of C.

 

You need ~4 months (minimum of 2) to study for the MCAT; try to take an MCAT course if you can, and the ExamKracker books are in my humble opinion the best because they force you to go through tons of realistic practice questions. Aim for 10+ in each section; 11+ in verbal is ideal. Do as many practice tests beforehand. There's a free one available at all times on the official AAMC MCAT website. Try it out early in the summer to have an idea of how much you'll have to study to do well.

[bloh]

bloh: Yah I know it's my only shot; but I really don't have much of a choice. It's either do that or don't do it as I couldn't financially support us for 1 - 2 years even with token student loans (which I wouldn't get approved for since I've made a decent amount of money in the last years). I'm still paying student loans from undergrad / masters / fiancee's school so I really don't even have wiggle room there. I did my masters while working full time and I felt like I still had some free time (which granted isn't a full course load), but it's realistically my only option.

 

Then back off on this idea entirely. I'm telling you right now; it won't work. There's no way a person can work full time, maintain a healthy relationship and and get high marks to get into medical school. Something has to give. You are potentially setting yourself up for a lot of grief down the road. Also, 3.6 in your masters is NOT good enough to get into a school reliably and you'll have to work much harder to get a higher mark than that

[EngrGuy]

hey 10wattbulb: Oh that's a good idea; I remember I was thinking of applying there but I remember the way NOSM calculated GPA I wasn't able to make the cut. My summer transition from college -> university was very bad and it brings down my cGPA lower then 3.0 (2.97). Other school don't count summer courses so it works - but because of that calculation I don't make NOSM's min requirements. They add for the masters; but only if you meet 3.0 in undergrad first.

 

bloh: Yah you're probably right... I know 3.6 isn't great but I wasn't trying for 4.0... I've never tried for anything great since I was always (undergrad + masters) just concerned with getting over 75 (since that was entrance to masters or PhD which is what I thought I might do someday since I really didn't think I could do MD). I think I'll try to talk to my work and see if I can lower my hours of work; maybe 20 h/week instead of 40. Otherwise maybe I'll just have to save up for a year and take the next year off... Not ideal (not even palatable) but probably the best plan.

[EngrGuy]

10wattbulb: also; I realized that OP application to UofC isn't the best bet but I was thinking of physically moving to Alberta so I can get IP. Also I'm giving myself 4months to study for the MCATs right now. I bought the Princeton Review Hyperlearning books used and have been trying to keep up with SN2eD's guide to studying. So far so good - although at times it's a little tough since this book is quite detailed and I've never take a Chem/OChem/Bio/Physics class (well I took Physics in high school)... Physics is quite easy since it's all math but some of this stuff requires some in depth reading from other textbooks.

[10wattbulb]

You MCAT plan sounds good. The Bio stuff can be challenging if you don't have a lot of knowledge in the subject matter. But even if you don't know much Bio, a lot of it is very similar to the Verbal Reasoning stuff. Even for the Phys section, a lot of it felt like Verbal R. The orgo chem is probably the stuff that will throw you off the most, but don't worry too much because there is not that much orgo chem on the Bio section of the MCAT. And orgo chem often feels a lot like "Visual" Reasoning. The exam is not so much about how much info you can stuff into your mind but rather about how well you can reason with the BIO/PHYS/CHEM/Passages. Are you planning on applying to Med school this coming year? If you are, you might want to check with Dal when is the latest date you can take the MCAT for your MCAT scores to be considered. Last year, a lot of people who wrote the MCAT in late Aug/early Sept couldn't apply to Dal for this cycle because they had written the MCAT too late.

 

Your GPA is quite low and you'll have to work hard to get it up there (aim for 3.7+ on your 2nd undergrad), because I don't think there are many Med schools that will see you as a competitive applicant with such a low GPA. Note that it's very understandable that your GPA is so low considering that you're in Engineering, and engineering is truly one of the hardest subject matters to get a good grade in.

[bloh]

hey 10wattbulb: Oh that's a good idea; I remember I was thinking of applying there but I remember the way NOSM calculated GPA I wasn't able to make the cut. My summer transition from college -> university was very bad and it brings down my cGPA lower then 3.0 (2.97). Other school don't count summer courses so it works - but because of that calculation I don't make NOSM's min requirements. They add for the masters; but only if you meet 3.0 in undergrad first.

 

bloh: Yah you're probably right... I know 3.6 isn't great but I wasn't trying for 4.0... I've never tried for anything great since I was always (undergrad + masters) just concerned with getting over 75 (since that was entrance to masters or PhD which is what I thought I might do someday since I really didn't think I could do MD). I think I'll try to talk to my work and see if I can lower my hours of work; maybe 20 h/week instead of 40. Otherwise maybe I'll just have to save up for a year and take the next year off... Not ideal (not even palatable) but probably the best plan.

 

Like others have said before, going from 3.6 to 4.0 is a monumental amount of effort. A 3.6 is less than an A- average and most people can get there with medium effort. You could probably get a 3.6 and still work and probably give some attention to your partner but your own free time will be nill and you'll quickly burn out. Remember, it's not a sprint but a marathon and you have to last the full distance.

 

I'm in medical school currently and getting above average (70~ish) doesn't take too much effort, but I do know that if I want to be a standard deviation above the average, I really need to crank up the effort. I've tried it (and done it on certain blocks) and the workload certainly is noticable. But we're talking about a short block of time of ~7 weeks in a subject I really liked, not 2 years worth of sprinting.

 

You have to decide if this is really what you want and if you do, you have to put everything behind you. Get student loans, line of credit, etc and give it your best shot unhindered by things you have control over, because you really do only have 1 shot.

[EngrGuy]

10wattbulb: thanks for the advice; I haven't started the verbal section yet but it seems like I should according to what you're mentioning. I'm not applying to any schools this year since I still need to do a GPA boosting year (or two) in order to be somewhat competitive.. I found the Engineering degree wasn't too tough but what really killed me was just my lack of motivation / studying skills / and overall immaturity when I was during my undergrad. Hopefully I won't have those issues this time around

 

bloh: This is what I really want to do; but I would never get accepted for student loans (I'm making too much and they look at your last year's T4) or line of credits since I still have some left over from my undergrad + I have a mortgage. And if I tell the banks I'm going back to school full time they'd never give me a LOC with 0 income and all my required monthly payments. So I'd have to work for 1 or 2 more years and save every penny in order to quit fully and go back to school. Which means I'd start med school in 4 or 5 years... I mean it might be my only option - but I'd rather give it a go next year I think. If I study bio/chem/ochem/physics all summer for my MCAT and then take those classes next year in university (since I have none of those credits) I would only need to keep up with the assignments and study for midterms / tests (which I could take time off for). But I agree with you that 3.6 -> 4.0 is 2x the work. But it's worth a shot vs waiting 4 years (at least I think so). Worst case scenario - I only get a 3.6. But I'll try to have saved up enough so the following year I could go to school full time for extra year #2. And 3.6 GPA is better then any of my other undergrad years so it wouldn't be like I'm lowering my cGPA.

[10wattbulb]

Once you've boosted your GPA and you're ready to apply in a year or two from now, don't just rely on Dal and/or U of C. Also consider NOSM, McMaster and Western, especially if you do well on the MCAT. For Western, you need an MCAT score of 10 BS, 9 PS, 11 VR, and O WS (these were the cutoffs this year). You also need a GPA of 3.7+ in your best 2 years in undergrad. If you make these cutoffs, your chances for an interview are exceptionally good. For McMaster, the VR of the MCAT is what they are interested in. You'll also have to do well on the CASPer to offset your lowish GPA (15 people did make it into their class with a GPA b/w 3.0-3.49, though). They also give a small Master's Degree holder's boost of +0.01 on GPA. I've already discussed why you should also consider NOSM; you'd do well on context and on auto sketch/non-academic considerations.

 

Oh yes, a last and very self-evident piece of advice (that you've probably already covered): consult with you fiancee extensively on this subject matter! You say that you've got no problem moving to Alberta to gain IP status. But maybe she is not keen as you are to follow you there if the need presents itself.

[EngrGuy]

haha; very true on that last point 10wattbulb. Actually she's going through a similar process. She has 1 last year of her to finish her honors undergrad and she will be applying to med schools as well (however she has good enough grades to get in without the extra years hah). So we really are looking for schools that we can both get in; even if it's not in the same years... I just wouldn't want to be away from her for any extended periods of time. She's keen on going anywhere as well. We're both pretty transient (I'm from northern ontario; she's from victoria, we moved her together etc).

 

So the challenge lies in where are our best chances to get in together (which makes it more difficult). For example; she's anglo so NOSM would be more challenging. She will also not have all the prereqs for all the schools so we can't apply to all of them (She's a kin student). She's studying for her MCATs this summer with me so she'll have that done.

 

I think thanks to yours and everybody's advice I have a much more solid game plan. I'll take 3 first year courses (BIO/CHEM/PHYSICS) this fall/winter and do 2 token senior level courses in a health field. Bio is offered online at Dal and they also have a Disability Management Certificate which is 4 half credit senior level courses that are offered online. So in would really only need to go to school for 2 classes (mornings) which would allow me to continue working in the afternoon. Once I'm done that year I'll apply to as many schools as possible and maybe redo my MCATs to try and raise my score. I'll look at my options and maybe move to Alberta where I can do a second year of undergrad classes (I'll decide those later) to get IP and hope that I get in somewhere with just 1 year of additional undergrad. If not; I'll keep on trying Also that year my fiancee will be done her undergrad while she is waiting to get in somewhere so she can work and support us for a while .

 

Thanks again for all the advice, it's been really helpful and is greatly appreciated.