Admissions Rant

[EngrGuy]

Hey Guys/Gals,

 

I thought I'd rant a little here and maybe get some sort of good ideas from you. So background info; I'm 28 and am just finishing my M.A.Sc in Electrical Engineering. My undergrad GPA isn't great (3.0 and 3.32 last 2 years - and 3.6 for M.A.Sc). So I'm looking to do more undergrad work.

 

I'm not sure which school I want to go to but seeing how I have pretty much none of the prereqs I'm limited so I was thinking Dal (Since I'm here) or Calgary (I can move). I met up with someone at DalMed Admissions who told me that the extra undergrad year had to be all upper level courses (3rd and 4th year - with maybe some exception for 1 2nd year) and they wouldn't except distance like Athabasca.

 

So I sent some emails over to Calgary to ask about their requirement on the extra year and whether I should do 1st year classes (prereqs such as chem / ochem / bio etc) or upper level classes. Dr. Ian Walker responded to me telling me that it is subjective and to quote "Unfortunately, that is a question we cannot answer. It is impossible to speculate about how individual reviewers will see things when they come to review your file. I think the more important guiding principle is that you do what you think will be of greatest interest and benefit to you, rather than choosing things based on what you think might look good to others."

 

So this didn't really help me out much but I understand Calgary's admissions are subjective... but so are Dal's as I can't find the 3rd / 4th year regulation on their med admissions anywhere. I spoke to the head of Engineering at Dal and he explained that I could do a second degree in Biological Engineering in 2 years (start in my 3rd year) and to just apply and it shouldn't be a problem. So that was great; I thought I had a solution that would best fit. I am supporting my fiancée / wife (getting married in July) who's also in school and have a mortgage so I will have to continue working full time but I can handle it.

 

Then last week I received an email from Dal admissions saying that since I went to a college in Ontario (I did a transfer program) that they couldn't use any of the transfer credits because it's not a Nova Scotia accredited college. Also - since I didn't have a B- in any of my high school prereqs (I did poorly in high school - which prompted me to go to a college in the first place) I couldn't even get accepted into the 1st year of the engineering program (even though I already have a B.Eng and a M.A.Sc). I emailed the head of engineering who told me it wouldn't be an issue and he said he'd try to look into it but it doesn't look good.

 

So what are my options? Go back to high school so I can go back to do an undergrad so I can get into Med School? I'm really not sure what to do at this point. I can risk it and take 1st/2nd year prereqs classes - but the application processes are so subjective I'm scared I'll just have wasted a year that both Dal and Calgary will subjectively think isn't appropriate as an extra year. Thoughts?

 

Thanks

J

[aaronjw]

I'm confused. You say you have a poor UG GPA but that the UG in general is not acceptable?

[atomickitten86]

I admire people who go the extra mile to get what they want. But I think it should be within reason. I suggest you look into schools outside of Canada if you really want to be a doctor (e.g. Carribean). I'm not saying that's your only chance (there's always hope you'll get into Dal), but it's an option that you should investigate and consider.

[EngrGuy]

aaronjw - The undergrad I've take is acceptable for med admissions; but my GPA isn't high enough to be competitive. I just want to take a second undergrad to boost my GPA but because I did a College -> University transfer back in 2004 Dalhousie won't transfer any of the credits and are trying to use my high school grades as admissions criteria (which doesn't meet their minimum requirement outside of high school).

 

atomickitten86: Yes I've considered that; I've just read a lot about people having a hard time getting residencies when coming back into Canada and I really wouldn't want to be stuck like that. I'd rather give it my all trying in Canada - and if all fails I'd consider it for sure.

[wcoast11]

What about McMaster? They have a minimum of 3.0 GPA (obviously it helps if you're well above that, but still...), and if you score really well on the Verbal section of the MCAT (that's all they look at), and do well on the CASPer (Computer-Based Assessment for Sampling Personal Characteristics), you could get an interview there. McMaster also doesn't look at extra-curriculars directly, so if you're weak in that area from doing engineering and recently deciding to do medicine, then that's another thing in your favour.

 

Plus, you get a small bonus for having a Master's degree. You worked hard for that M.A.Sc - may as well get some credit for it.

 

From McMaster's website:

 

"Those applicants with a completed and conferred graduate degree at the time of application will receive the following advantage on the formula determining likelihood of invitation to interview:

 

Master's Degree holders: +0.01; PhD Degree holders: +0.04

 

Based on past years' experience, this will provide a significant, albeit not decisive, advantage for graduate degree holders."

[Real Beef]

I admire people who go the extra mile to get what they want. But I think it should be within reason.

 

+1

 

If you can pursue medicine by taking 2-3 extra years of undergrad that sounds reasonable. Having to jump through 6 dozen burning rings of fire to 'possibly' impress some abstract admissions committee without even knowing if it will be the right move seems a bit much when you have a new marriage, mortgage and supporting your spouse while she is in school.

 

I am all for pursuing your dream .... as I am ... but I know that what I am doing is getting me closer ... while neither of the main contacts at the med schools you are interested in can give you a guarantee what you are planning would do you any good.

 

Going back to high school? .... LOL ... that is just silliness ... dont let the Engineering adcom's make a fool of you ... you have a freaking MSc in Electrical Engineering and they wont let you in a similar undergrad ... dont let them make you act like a clown for their inflexible policies.

 

Beef

[EngrGuy]

Para D: I'm seriously considering moving to Alberta. My fiancee has 1 more year of school next year here at Dal but after that I'm free to go. The great thing about UofC is you can move there and apply right away to get IP. But in that mean time I was just hoping to get an additional year of undergrad that would boost my GPA. So I might just put all my eggs in UofC basket and take Athabasca online prereqs.

 

wcoast11: I was considering McMaster; I just always assumed it was very difficult to get in (any school in Ontario). I'm studying for my MCATs this summer (following SN2ed's 4 month plan) so I might apply to it as it doesn't have any IP benefits like the other schools. Also anything school that give additional points to applicants with Masters is a bonus for sure.

 

Real Beef: I talked to the Admissions perosn and she was very "The Dean of Engineering doesn't make Admissions decisions - we do" so it was very power trippy despite getting the OK from both the Dean of Engineering + Dean of Undergrad Engineering. I know I will have to jump through SOME hoops as a result of me messing around when I was in undergrad and not really knowing what I wanted to do. But I just wish the med admissions people would say "take these courses, do great in them, and you'll be a good candidate". I don't need anything in stone; just some peice of mind that taking a full time course load while working full time will count towards the GPA calculation. Conflicting information and vague remarks from anybody I speak too in these departments seem to make it impossible to figure out.

[atomickitten86]

@ParaD. I'd like to see you say that medical students studying in the Carribean are "rich kids who are too lazy or stupid to get into a Canadian school" in front of a Canadian medical school admissions committe. I think your comments say a lot more about you than it says about the Carribean medical school system. Have some respect. I simply said that it was an option worth considering, so please don't bite my head off!

[yorkergizer]

EngrGuy,

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your situation, but why don't you kill two birds with one stone? Enroll in a BSc program, and complete your remaining prereqs. No point in trying to get back into an engineering program, which typically have higher admission standards. That way you raise your GPA, and become eligible to apply to other schools. Your BEng math, physics, and intro chem courses should transfer as prereqs (transfer credits for admission to a program can be different from school to school, and for med school apps vs. program admission), so you should be able to complete all your remaining prereqs in one year, plus maybe another semester.

 

Make sure you kill it though, because you'll need to raise your GPA somewhat.

[yorkergizer]

Para D, I agree with your perceived futility of going the Caribbean route.

 

However, statements like those who opt for that route are "rich kids who are too lazy or stupid to get into a Canadian school" suggests that you haven't given proper reflection on the admissions process in Canada.

 

Now I don't know your story, what journey you took to get to medschool, but I challenge you to participate in the admissions process for the next incoming class. You'll see the line separating those who get in, and those who don't, is sometimes not so well defined. And often it has nothing to do with intelligence or work ethic. Think about how many things had to work out for you (or some of your classmates, if you were a stellar, shoe-in candidate), some that were outside your control, for you to end up on the right side of the line like you did.

 

So it's easy to understand how some may be misguided and desperate enough to go the Caribbean route if they can afford it, even if they have done the research. Many very well could be smarter and more hardworking than you. Hard to believe, I know!

[EngrGuy]

yorkergizer: The only reason I didn't want to do it that way is Dal Admissions told me they would only count additional years if they were senior level courses. But all prereqs are 1st / 2nd. Also to take any other 3rd or 4th classes of other department require their own prereqs that I don't have. If Dal had no issues with another year of 1st / 2nd year courses I would gladly do that...

[EngrGuy]

ps> Maybe we can spawn a side thread for the arguments?

[EngrGuy]

Thanks 2012canfm,

 

I'm really hoping to study in Canada; I really don't believe it's impossible... I just think it's challenging when I don't have an discrete idea of what I need to do to get there.

[EngrGuy]

Thanks,

 

I think that'll be my game plan most likely. Do you know if UofC / UofA etc are fine with Athatbasca? I know the Dal Admissions lady said it wasn't (although it's not mentioned anywhere else).

[kylamonkey]

Thanks,

 

I think that'll be my game plan most likely. Do you know if UofC / UofA etc are fine with Athatbasca? I know the Dal Admissions lady said it wasn't (although it's not mentioned anywhere else).

 

UofC is fine with distance. I'm doing courses in psych through TRU now, and they will all be accepted.

 

The subjective part that Calgary was talking about will possibly benefit you at UofC. They look at program difficulty, that sort of thing. Sooo... taking a bunch of easy 1st yr courses through distance isn't really ideal, but they WILL see that you had a relatively challenging undergrad.

[MyGPAsucks]

Dal looks at your two best years (or two most recent) to determine GPA, right? If I'm not mistaken, they only care about the courses you take in those two years. So maybe you could spend a year doing prereqs for a non-engineering degree (biology, psych, anthro, whatever you can get top marks in) and then do senior level courses for the next two years (the ones you actually use to apply).

[MyGPAsucks]

I didn't get in on my first shot, I am well aware that there is an element of luck in the process. I never said anything about those that got in versus those that didn't. I am talking about the people who give up and look for the easy road instead of trying again. Many people on this forum have had to apply multiple times but did they give up and go down south, take the sure bet? The caribbean is an easy out for people who can afford it. It is also a dead end for the majority of people who are too stupid to do their homework on the matter.

 

Nice lecture though, good try, I appreciate you wanting to bring me down a peg or two but we are talking about different people. Thanks for thinking I'm a moron and trying to keep me humble. I'm sure all the people on this forum who gave up and bailed on trying to get in in Canada appreciate you standing up for them.

 

Welcome to the forum I look forward to seeing more douchy dumbass comments from you.

 

I totally agree with your assessment of caribbean schools, and since you're someone who has actually made it into a school here in Canada, I'm glad you're offering advice and insight and counterbalancing other people's opinions. But I think those other people were a bit offended by the way you portrayed people who head south- not that they disagree with what you're saying (it is definitely hard to get back into Canada), but how you're saying it. I have no personal interest in caribbean schools, but if I had a brother/ sister/ etc going to one, I might be offended if heard someone writing them off as a "rich kids who are too lazy or stupid..."

 

I'm not trying to be an a-hole here. I've read lots of your posts in other threads and always appreciate your insight (particularly your scientific method for spotting trolls, lol). Just pointing out why these people might have reacted the way they did.

[10wattbulb]

Hi EngrGuy,

 

There's something that intrigues me very much about your situation. With a nice engineering degree, you can easily get a well-paid and comfortable job in the field. Engineers are very much in need in many places (look at NRC website and other gov websites) Why do you feel the need to get into med school? If I were on the ADCOM and had to interview you, I would certainly ask you this question.

[taboo]

If you do well on the MCAT (meaning upper 30s) Manitoba could be an option and doesn't require you to take upper year courses.

 

They likely won't consider your college work, so that may help or hurt you.

 

Any A+ at Dalhousie counts as a 4.5 at UofM instead of 4.3.I'm pretty sure any A- will be treated as A for a 4.0 and B+ would be a 3.5. So your GPA should be higher for UofM than it is at Dalhousie. If you lack consistency your GPA could improve by a lot with drops after two years of A+ (or 90%+ at a school that lists percentages on transcripts).

[EngrGuy]

kylamonkey: Ok that's good to hear. I was worried that when they did a subjective assessment of my application they would see my 5th undergrad year has only 1st/2nd year courses and would not count it towards GPA calculations.

 

MyGPASucks: Yes, this would be a good option; I was only hoping to do it in 2 or less years. However; if that's the only option I would certainly try to do so. Working full time while doing undergrad work full time for 3 years would certainly be challenging though..

 

10wattbulb: I've always wanted to go to med school since high school; however for me it was always a question of self confidence. I didn't do great in high school so I decided to go to a college. I graduate valedictorian from there so it made me realize I might have a shot in university. From there I did decent and got a great job (I've been there 6 years now). I decided to do my masters while continuing to work (they are sort of related) and I excelled in that too. Today I hold managerial position for our R&D department at a sub company of FLIR and it is what I consider to be a well-paid comfortable job... however it's not what I want. I've always wanted to go to med school but always lacked confidence in believing I could make it in until a little while ago. Even then the question of my age stopped me from applying until I realized I didn't want to settle on a career because I felt like I was too old to try. It's never been a question of money or comfort; but a dream and a life goal that I don't want to give up on.

 

taboo: Oh that's really interesting; I will consider that as well. I never gave much thought to UofM since I've been mostly looking at school that I can have the IP advantage. Since I'd have to move somewhere before applying I'd really have to know which school I have the best chance at.

[EngrGuy]

btw - thanks everyone so far for the help and constructive ideas.

[bloh]

I am supporting my fiancée / wife (getting married in July) who's also in school and have a mortgage so I will have to continue working full time but I can handle it.

 

Don't do that. It's harder to do than you envision and you only have 1 shot to get this right.

[EngrGuy]

bloh: Yah I know it's my only shot; but I really don't have much of a choice. It's either do that or don't do it as I couldn't financially support us for 1 - 2 years even with token student loans (which I wouldn't get approved for since I've made a decent amount of money in the last years). I'm still paying student loans from undergrad / masters / fiancee's school so I really don't even have wiggle room there. I did my masters while working full time and I felt like I still had some free time (which granted isn't a full course load), but it's realistically my only option.

[Der Kaiser]

There is no option for you to work part time is there? Maybe you are made of sterner stuff than me, but having just completed a full year (like one exam to go) I cannot imagine pulling 90s and working full time. If you are going to be working I strongly suggest an easy program. A huge mistake I made initially with trying to improve my application was thinking I was capable of more work than I actually am. The end result was burnout, which can affect grades pretty badly. I ended up having to withdraw from a course because of it.

[kpm]

 

10wattbulb: I've always wanted to go to med school since high school; however for me it was always a question of self confidence. I didn't do great in high school so I decided to go to a college. I graduate valedictorian from there so it made me realize I might have a shot in university. From there I did decent and got a great job (I've been there 6 years now). I decided to do my masters while continuing to work (they are sort of related) and I excelled in that too. Today I hold managerial position for our R&D department at a sub company of FLIR and it is what I consider to be a well-paid comfortable job... however it's not what I want. I've always wanted to go to med school but always lacked confidence in believing I could make it in until a little while ago. Even then the question of my age stopped me from applying until I realized I didn't want to settle on a career because I felt like I was too old to try. It's never been a question of money or comfort; but a dream and a life goal that I don't want to give up on.

 

 

Wow! That's a really good answer and inspiring. I hope you are successful, but it's gonna be a rough ride. Good luck!