Article: Pediatricians discharging unvaccinated children

[BigM]

It would be interesting to see if these same parents who refuse to vaccinate their children would continue to hold to this stance in the case of congenital asplenia or subsequent to a splenectomy.

 

Some would, some wouldn't. The same thing would probably happen if we found an absolute cause of autism that had nothing to do with vaccines, many of these individuals would just move onto the next disease that vaccines are accused of causing.

 

I think that some people are just bored. They love the idea that there is a huge conspiracy against them and the fact that they can be society's warriors against evil just by becoming part of grassroots anti-vaccine movement. Imagine if you could save the world by reading a few websites and then telling people to stop doing one particular thing (get their kids vaccinated). It becomes something to can talk about with their friends and something they can become an "expert" in by reading a few websites and joining a mailing group. Its similar to a hipster movement, if more people become against vaccines than were for it, a lot of these individuals would lose passion for their fight. Now the problem with this is a lot of people would die and the diseases would become rampant, but that's why we are pro-vaccine, is it not?

[Wayward son]

Unfortunately until scientists figure out more about Autism and its true causes we will continue to have the problem of unvaccinated children.

 

Sigh. There is no right answer to how to approach this dilemma.

 

I see no reason to believe that if we understood everything about the cause the autism that it would change the position of anti-vaxers. Anti-vaccination sentiment has existed since the beginning.

 

Ben Franklin opposed the smallpox inoculation until one of his own children died from smallpox in 1736.

 

In 1885 the Leicester Demonstration had 80,000 - 100,000 anti-vaxers protesting Jenner and the Smallpox vaccine.

 

In the 1970s and 80s it was DTP, culminating in the terrible documentary DPT: Vaccination Roulette.

 

Starting in 1998 with Wakefield it was the MMR "connection" to autism and claims have wiggled around from there to thimerosal and to "too many, too soon" etc.

 

It seems every step along the way the science and medicine side believes that if they can just compile enough evidence it will convince people. That seems unlikely to me. There is the old saying that "you can't reason someone out a position they didn't reason themself into." The saying is, of course, not always true, but it should be a reminder that reason and data only go so far. If someone has taken a position based on emotion than hitting them over the head with evidence and data is not going to address their concerns.

[Wayward son]

They love the idea that there is a huge conspiracy against them and the fact that they can be society's warriors against evil just by becoming part of grassroots anti-vaccine movement. Imagine if you could save the world by reading a few websites and then telling people to stop doing one particular thing (get their kids vaccinated). It becomes something to can talk about with their friends and something they can become an "expert" in by reading a few websites and joining a mailing group.

 

I think this idea has a lot going for it. It also provides simple answers. People don't like complex answers to complex problems. For instance the idea that the world is being run by a small number of people, say the illuminati, means that there is a pretty straight forward solution to many of the world's problems from high gas prices, to wars, to the financial collapse. Expose the illuminati and give the power back to the people. Until that time you are one are the "smart ones" who has figured it out and therefore part of the solution.

[Birdy]

I am the mother of a child with autism, who coincidentally was not vaccinated with any of the vaccines they blame for autism prior to his diagnosis (it was due to a mixup with medical records because we moved when he was a baby. He is in the process of being brought up to date now.) I have no doubt that my son has been autistic his entire life. Even looking at videos of him as a tiny baby, well before he was vaccinated at all, it is possible to see that his development was atypical - lack of eye contact, no cooperative or imaginative play, etc. Even then, at around 18 months of age, he had a very sudden regression where he went from verbally precocious to almost completely nonverbal, and what little gains we had made in social interaction vanished in a matter of days. How easy it would have been to look at something he'd been given at that age and say 'that's what did it!'

 

Being in the autism community, I know many parents who are looking for something or someone to blame - some external factor on which they can pin their child having autism. They do not wish to even consider that their own genes may be the cause of it, because it is then their 'fault' instead of some nebulous, evil Big Pharma they can blame.

 

I have many friends who are staunch defenders of the vaccine-autism connection, despite all evidence to the contrary. Presenting evidence that debunks their strongly held conviction is taken as a personal attack. It is almost as though it is a religion to many, to be unquestioningly believed. It is easier for them to ascribe financial motives to doctors, to believe otherwise well-intentioned doctors are illinformed or greedy, than it is to believe that maybe, just maybe, they are wrong.

 

That said, I would treat their children. I would make my recommendation for vaccines known, regularly, but I would still treat the child, and would hopefully be able to get them to avoid some of the worst quackery that snake oil salesmen present as treatments for autism. While not vaccinating can, on its own, present a risk to the child and their community, some of the quack treatments (chelation being the most dangerous that comes to mind) that some parents seek out present clear, immediate dangers to these children. Hopefully, I could get the parents to listen to reason on at least that point.

 

 

Edit: I am not yet a medical student, so I apologize for posting in this part of the forum which is clearly intended for med students. This thread came up when I was searching the forums for anything autism-related, as I was curious whether there were any other students who are also parents of children with autism.

[boodog]

I am the mother of a child with autism, who coincidentally was not vaccinated with any of the vaccines they blame for autism prior to his diagnosis (it was due to a mixup with medical records because we moved when he was a baby. He is in the process of being brought up to date now.) I have no doubt that my son has been autistic his entire life. Even looking at videos of him as a tiny baby, well before he was vaccinated at all, it is possible to see that his development was atypical - lack of eye contact, no cooperative or imaginative play, etc. Even then, at around 18 months of age, he had a very sudden regression where he went from verbally precocious to almost completely nonverbal, and what little gains we had made in social interaction vanished in a matter of days. How easy it would have been to look at something he'd been given at that age and say 'that's what did it!'

 

Being in the autism community, I know many parents who are looking for something or someone to blame - some external factor on which they can pin their child having autism. They do not wish to even consider that their own genes may be the cause of it, because it is then their 'fault' instead of some nebulous, evil Big Pharma they can blame.

 

I have many friends who are staunch defenders of the vaccine-autism connection, despite all evidence to the contrary. Presenting evidence that debunks their strongly held conviction is taken as a personal attack. It is almost as though it is a religion to many, to be unquestioningly believed. It is easier for them to ascribe financial motives to doctors, to believe otherwise well-intentioned doctors are illinformed or greedy, than it is to believe that maybe, just maybe, they are wrong.

 

That said, I would treat their children. I would make my recommendation for vaccines known, regularly, but I would still treat the child, and would hopefully be able to get them to avoid some of the worst quackery that snake oil salesmen present as treatments for autism. While not vaccinating can, on its own, present a risk to the child and their community, some of the quack treatments (chelation being the most dangerous that comes to mind) that some parents seek out present clear, immediate dangers to these children. Hopefully, I could get the parents to listen to reason on at least that point.

 

 

Edit: I am not yet a medical student, so I apologize for posting in this part of the forum which is clearly intended for med students. This thread came up when I was searching the forums for anything autism-related, as I was curious whether there were any other students who are also parents of children with autism.

 

Definitely some interesting points. Having spent a significant amount of time in pediatrics it would appear to me that the big issue pediatricians have with the anti-vaccine camp is not simply the fact that those parents don't want to vaccinate their child, it's the fact that a lot of these parents also hold other false fixed beliefs regarding health care and have higher than possible expectations for speed and quality of care.

 

Some parents believe that chiropractors should adjust scoliosis in infants and among other things can treat colic, stomach pains (really??), etc, etc. Can you imagine a chiro manipulating a young infant? I could mention several studies here, but sometimes I'd like to think that common sense can trump science. Ethically rather than discharge this patient from my practise, I should be contacting children's services. How come parents can do this to their children? (PS I am in no way suggesting that all chiro is bad, but it really has no place in childhood).

[Birdy]

Definitely some interesting points. Having spent a significant amount of time in pediatrics it would appear to me that the big issue pediatricians have with the anti-vaccine camp is not simply the fact that those parents don't want to vaccinate their child, it's the fact that a lot of these parents also hold other false fixed beliefs regarding health care and have higher than possible expectations for speed and quality of care.

 

Some parents believe that chiropractors should adjust scoliosis in infants and among other things can treat colic, stomach pains (really??), etc, etc. Can you imagine a chiro manipulating a young infant? I could mention several studies here, but sometimes I'd like to think that common sense can trump science. Ethically rather than discharge this patient from my practise, I should be contacting children's services. How come parents can do this to their children? (PS I am in no way suggesting that all chiro is bad, but it really has no place in childhood).

 

Taking an infant to a chiropractor is something that I have seen unfortunately often. Fine and dandy for them - an adult making a conscious, but illinformed decision has every right to do so - but it terrifies me for their children. I'm always horrified when someone schedules a chiro appointment for their one week old. There's evidence that points to chiro being useful for a narrow scope of problems. Great, they have a niche. But for them to present themselves as a panacea - and some insist they can cure cancer, so this is not hyperbole - is irresponsible and and does a massive disservice to their pts. I have a bit of an issue with 'straight' chiropractic, so I'll cease my vent there.

 

It's confirmation bias. They only seek out research, however poor the methodology, that supports their position, and will argue their view until they are blue in the face, insisting it worked for so-and-so, so it must be valid treatment. Trying to convince them that the plural of anecdote is not data is nigh impossible.

 

It's the same thing seen amongst the anti-vaccine movement. After Wakefield's study was retracted and he was struck off the register, many (but not all) changed their tune from blaming mercury to blaming aluminum in vaccines, or blaming the immune response, saying it causes encephalitis, or... They believe it, so they will find support for it, no matter how flimsy.

 

But, still, I would hope that pediatricians would keep them on as pts, just to hopefully minimize any damage the parents' beliefs could cause the child. Even if they are frustrating patients to deal with. My son's pediatrician, who works primarily with ASD kids, is a saint for dealing with so many of these parents.

[thebouque]

this isnt nazi germany here...

 

Yeah Chrissy I know, and I'm not advocating it. I'm saying that people who find acceptable to refuse a pt because his parents don't want him to be vaccinated might as well ask for compulsory vaccination. As long as it's not compulsory, refusing such patient is a form of discrimination and is unacceptable and there should be disciplinary action against this pediatrician.

[tooty]

... Vaccines are a double edged sword imo. They are blessing but we have gone way way overboard with them....

 

Are there any clinical evidence to support harm done by vaccines?

[Wayward son]

why isnt there any talk of over vaccination?

 

Scientific evidence of over vaccination?

 

Don't all these vaccines overwhelm the immune system?

 

Evidence? According to this study not even close.

 

Where are these vaccines made? Communist china?

 

Is that a real question?

 

What about the special interests and lobbyists who have massive influence on what the research and government says? Arent the people who make the vaccines making absolutely absurd profits off of them? just looking on my youtube webpage there is an advertisement for the HPV vaccination.... come on now!

 

If you read the book "The Truth About The Drug Companies" by Marcia Angell (former editor of NEJM) you will see that while she attacks the drug companies none stop for their greed over drugs, she at the same time attacks them for not putting R&D in vaccines because vaccines are generally a money loser. There are a couple exceptions, making flu vaccines and HPV vaccines generally provide a decent profit, but still chump change compared to what a decent drug would.

 

What is the medium these vaccines are delivered in? Are these chemicals quite controversial?

 

Is this just typical conspiracy theorist "I'm just asking questions" crap? Do you really care about the answers, or will you bounce to the next complaint without assessing the answers. Do you have any legitimate reason or evidence to claim that the medium or chemicals are actually controversial among experts? Or just the nuts at Natural News or InfoWars?

 

Why exactly is invitro fertilization a multi billion dollar industry? What do people nowadays have such a tough time conceiving kids?

 

Delay having children until later in life. Obesity. Pelvic Inflammatory Disease.

 

Look what Governor Rick Perry of Texas Campaigned on! He wanted mandatory vaccinations for 12 year old girls for a sexual transmitted disease! Doesn't anybody find that socially awkward!?!? No conflict of interest there?

 

Socially awkward? I sure don't. The idea of reducing cervical cancer through a simple vaccine makes a lot of sense to me. And parents in Texas could simply exempt their child if they didn't want their child to be protected. Very simple to do.

 

... Vaccines are a double edged sword imo. They are blessing but we have gone way way overboard with them....

 

Again, what actual evidence do you have for this claim? What is your education in immunology, virology, vaccine manufacturing? Why should I give any credence to your claims, when they seem to be solely based on hunch of how you think things should work?

[NLengr]

why isnt there any talk of over vaccination? Don't all these vaccines overwhelm the immune system?

 

Where are these vaccines made? Communist china?

 

What about the special interests and lobbyists who have massive influence on what the research and government says? Arent the people who make the vaccines making absolutely absurd profits off of them? just looking on my youtube webpage there is an advertisement for the HPV vaccination.... come on now!

 

What is the medium these vaccines are delivered in? Are these chemicals quite controversial?

 

Why exactly is invitro fertilization a multi billion dollar industry? What do people nowadays have such a tough time conceiving kids?

 

Look what Governor Rick Perry of Texas Campaigned on! He wanted mandatory vaccinations for 12 year old girls for a sexual transmitted disease! Doesn't anybody find that socially awkward!?!? No conflict of interest there?

 

 

... Vaccines are a double edged sword imo. They are blessing but we have gone way way overboard with them....

 

I'm gonna say trolling. 2/10. Too over the top and obvious.

[pheochromocytoma]

why isnt there any talk of over vaccination? Don't all these vaccines overwhelm the immune system?

 

Where are these vaccines made? Communist china?

 

What about the special interests and lobbyists who have massive influence on what the research and government says? Arent the people who make the vaccines making absolutely absurd profits off of them? just looking on my youtube webpage there is an advertisement for the HPV vaccination.... come on now!

 

What is the medium these vaccines are delivered in? Are these chemicals quite controversial?

 

Why exactly is invitro fertilization a multi billion dollar industry? What do people nowadays have such a tough time conceiving kids?

 

Look what Governor Rick Perry of Texas Campaigned on! He wanted mandatory vaccinations for 12 year old girls for a sexual transmitted disease! Doesn't anybody find that socially awkward!?!? No conflict of interest there?

 

 

... Vaccines are a double edged sword imo. They are blessing but we have gone way way overboard with them....

 

srsly???

I'd say troll, but you have too many posts it seems.

Along the lines of you fertilization question, that's a pretty pre-school way of thinking... do you think that technology has been available/affordable since the beginning of the Earth?? or is it possible that it is new technology that is only now becoming more widely available? You have absolutely NO ammo against vaccines, the only thing you are armed with is speculative paranoia

[1234]

why isnt there any talk of over vaccination? Don't all these vaccines overwhelm the immune system?

 

Where are these vaccines made? Communist china?

 

What about the special interests and lobbyists who have massive influence on what the research and government says? Arent the people who make the vaccines making absolutely absurd profits off of them? just looking on my youtube webpage there is an advertisement for the HPV vaccination.... come on now!

 

What is the medium these vaccines are delivered in? Are these chemicals quite controversial?

 

Why exactly is invitro fertilization a multi billion dollar industry? What do people nowadays have such a tough time conceiving kids?

 

Look what Governor Rick Perry of Texas Campaigned on! He wanted mandatory vaccinations for 12 year old girls for a sexual transmitted disease! Doesn't anybody find that socially awkward!?!? No conflict of interest there?

 

 

... Vaccines are a double edged sword imo. They are blessing but we have gone way way overboard with them....

 

Good luck getting into medicine. I hope you say that in your interview so they can keep you out. If you somehow pull it off, good luck staying out of the legal system. Where's your tin foil hat?

[thebouque]

It's incredible how everyone takes it so personal when someone questions the value/efficacy of vaccines. Geez, troll or not, you can answer the guy's questions about the medium etc.

[pheochromocytoma]

It's incredible how everyone takes it so personal when someone questions the value/efficacy of vaccines. Geez, troll or not, you can answer the guy's questions about the medium etc.

 

You didn't answer his question either.

It's not taking it personal, its about dispelling the myths and baseless speculation that are causing people to refuse vaccines thus jeopardizing both their, and others, safety. nom sayin? He tried to give potential evidence of vaccines causing harm by saying that more people today are gettin IVF, which is such a weak attempt at putting together a correlation it's like saying that traffic lights turn red and the ocean is wet... okay that's true but that doesn't mean that one explains the other

[Mourning Cloak]

come on guys… I only made 1 statement “Vaccines are a double edged sword imo. They are blessing but we have gone way way overboard with them”. It seems like I have commited blasphemy when I questioned the status quo.

 

This isn't questioning the status quo. This is ignoring all scientific evidence and espousing a bunch of crazy conspiracy theories.

 

 

Much of the rhetoric of my questions comes from Dr. Ron paul.

 

That would be your problem right there. Unless you're interested in obstetrical techniques from decades ago or racist rhetoric, you're going to the wrong source.

 

 

What we need is a really good epidemic to smarten these fools up. Parents in the 1950s understood what the deal was.

[thebouque]

You didn't answer his question either.

It's not taking it personal, its about dispelling the myths and baseless speculation that are causing people to refuse vaccines thus jeopardizing both their, and others, safety. nom sayin? He tried to give potential evidence of vaccines causing harm by saying that more people today are gettin IVF, which is such a weak attempt at putting together a correlation it's like saying that traffic lights turn red and the ocean is wet... okay that's true but that doesn't mean that one explains the other

 

I don't know the answer

[Wayward son]

http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2008/disappearingmale/

 

"We are conducting a vast toxicological experiment in which our children and our children's children are the experimental subjects." Dr. Herbert Needleman

 

The Disappearing Male is about one of the most important, and least publicized, issues facing the human species: the toxic threat to the male reproductive system.

 

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Science-Based Medicine: "The Disappearing Male" - A Pinch of Science, a Pound of Speculation

[Wayward son]

come on guys… I only made 1 statement “Vaccines are a double edged sword imo. They are blessing but we have gone way way overboard with them”. It seems like I have commited blasphemy when I questioned the status quo.

 

You didn't really only make one statement. The rest of your post was in the typical form of conspiracy theorists making statements through leading questions.

 

Media has long known that for instance asking a question like "Is Barak Obama really a muslim?" and leaving it at that without providing an answer or any additional information, is really not asking a question, but implanting the idea that Barak Obama is really a muslim. Fox News does this beautifully all day long.

 

Much of the rhetoric of my questions comes from Dr. Ron paul.

 

I knew where it came from. Ron Paul is a complete ideologue who has no critical thinking skills whatsoever. Any opinion he holds is not based on evidence but whether it fits with his extreme ideology. Instead of watching his videos you could spend the same time educating yourself from a legitimate source based on evidence instead of predetermined positions based on an unalterable worldview.

[Wayward son]

I don't know the answer

 

me too....

 

I am not really sure what the question is. Most people who are worried about vaccines are either referring to the medium that the virus is grown in, or claim that aborted fetal tissue is part of the medium in which vaccines are delivered in, or they are referrring to the adjuvant like squalene. The virus is generally grown in which ever purified protein they have found works best for the specific virus. In the actual vaccine the medium may be saline, water, oil in water. Some vaccines have immunologic adjuvants like squalene, oil, aluminum phosphate. Other vaccines like DPT produce their own increased immunologic response through being given together. If you are worried about aluminum phosphate then I would caution you against eating....food.