studying abroad may actually be worth it.

[BedroomBully11]

Thread Closed.

[NLengr]

I have a very good friend who was a student in Toronto and right after High School flew to Poland and is now studying at the Wroclaw Medical University, she loves it and needless to say she will be done in six years oppose from eight.

 

Everyone has this ominous feeling when considering studying abroad but in actuality it has it's benefits. It's much cheaper then going down to the states, also you don't have to be a borderline genius to be matriculated. I know a professor from York U who is doing a presentation ENCOURAGING students to consider studying abroad, the reason being because there is a shortage of Doctors in Canada and the schools make it next to impossible to even have a chance.

 

If you have the money and the strength to be away from home for a longevity of time, then I say its completely worth the experience. And YES you can come back to Canada and be licensed as a Doctor here. It may be a little bit harder but it is definitely not impossible.

 

There is not a shortage of doctors in Canada. There is at best a maldistrabution of specialty training and geographic location.

[Comeon]

It is silly that so many premeds find underhanded ways of entering the medical profession. A shortage should not be fixed by individuals who do not have the capacity to become good doctors - and I bet it is rare to get these from sloppy IMG programs.

 

I have a very good friend who was a student in Toronto and right after High School flew to Poland and is now studying at the Wroclaw Medical University, she loves it and needless to say she will be done in six years oppose from eight.

 

Everyone has this ominous feeling when considering studying abroad but in actuality it has it's benefits. It's much cheaper then going down to the states, also you don't have to be a borderline genius to be matriculated. I know a professor from York U who is doing a presentation ENCOURAGING students to consider studying abroad, the reason being because there is a shortage of Doctors in Canada and the schools make it next to impossible to even have a chance.

 

If you have the money and the strength to be away from home for a longevity of time, then I say its completely worth the experience. And YES you can come back to Canada and be licensed as a Doctor here. It may be a little bit harder but it is definitely not impossible.

[BedroomBully11]

There is not a shortage of doctors in Canada. There is at best a maldistrabution of specialty training and geographic location.

 

I agree, but I am just stating what I saw from a lady at York University.

[BedroomBully11]

It is silly that so many premeds find underhanded ways of entering the medical profession. A shortage should not be fixed by individuals who do not have the capacity to become good doctors - and I bet it is rare to get these from sloppy IMG programs.

 

 

I do not believe that going to a medical school abroad makes you a "bad" or

incompetent doctor? You're simply "a doctor".

 

My Doctor herself actually came from Poland and she is far from incompetent. I think it is HILARIOUS how some people (like yourself) pretty much think that because you did some extracurricular activities, got some good test scores and did well in your undergrad, think you are going to be extremely good Doctor's. The reality is NONE of that determines the type of Doctor you will be. You know how many chump Doctor's I have met that don't give a flying fu** about their patients, tons.

 

I honestly think people like yourself will be one of them. Instead of simply putting constructive criticism into the thread, your much more amused by how funny you think it is that your in med school, and someone else on here is trying to find a more abnormal (and possibly beneficial) way to get into Medical School.

 

And just so your clear, I don't want to be a Doctor. I did and have recently realized it's not for me. I am simply here to try and help offer suggestions to students who may not end up being as lucky as you, although I am sure many of them deserve the position you are in much more then you.

[Comeon]

Did I upset you, bro? I am glad that you have figured out what makes a good doctor with no medical experience. I hope your mother is proud of you.

 

I do not believe that going to a medical school abroad makes you a "bad" or

incompetent doctor? You're simply "a doctor".

 

My Doctor herself actually came from Poland and she is far from incompetent. I think it is HILARIOUS how some people (like yourself) pretty much think that because you did some extracurricular activities, got some good test scores and did well in your undergrad, think you are going to be extremely good Doctor's. The reality is NONE of that determines the type of Doctor you will be. You know how many chump Doctor's I have met that don't give a flying fu** about their patients, tons.

 

I honestly think people like yourself will be one of them. Instead of simply putting constructive criticism into the thread, your much more amused by how funny you think it is that your in med school, and someone else on here is trying to find a more abnormal (and possibly beneficial) way to get into Medical School.

 

And just so your clear, I don't want to be a Doctor. I did and have recently realized it's not for me. I am simply here to try and help offer suggestions to students who may not end up being as lucky as you, although I am sure many of them deserve the position you are in much more then you.

[kmartelli]

It is silly that so many premeds find underhanded ways of entering the medical profession. A shortage should not be fixed by individuals who do not have the capacity to become good doctors - and I bet it is rare to get these from sloppy IMG programs.

What if most of them are way better than Mac students? Would that mean Mac is a sloppy program?

[Comeon]

Not going to happen in a million years.

 

What if most of them are way better than Mac students? Would that mean Mac is a sloppy program?

[OzTREKK]

Just to add my two cents, there are many benefits of studying abroad, but there are also many drawbacks as well.

 

The one thing that everyone needs to realise is that different people study medicine in various places around the world for different reasons. Whether it be fulfilling a dream and goal, for the actual experience, or some other reason...

 

It is disheartening to hear when some place a stigma on those that do choose a different pathway.

 

The issue in Canada is that there are too few places at medical schools and the only reason why some don't gain admission is purely based on supply of places available at medical schools and the demand by students applying.

 

If you look at class sizes, the largest medical class size in Canada is UBC at over 250. UofT is over 220 and the rest sit around the 100-125 mark.

 

Looking at countries like Australia, universities like Melbourne, Sydney, Queensland and Monash all have class sizes over 350. Now, some many say how can you teach a class of that size and what are the quality standards. Actually each medical program is accredited by the AMC and the AMC, based on their audits, outline how many places a medical school can have, based on their facilities and the publics needs. University education is a federal responsibility meaning that the government takes a look at the overall picture and allots funding and places based on need.

 

I am not saying this is perfect, but a different point of view.

 

There are three main reasons why class sizes are smaller in Canada; lack of funding; the fact that university education is a provincial responsibility and not a federal one (hence why there are out of province quotas on places and whereby one province cares little for what happens in another province from a health care perspective); and finally because the profession itself is heavily regulated and regulate the number of doctors in the country.

 

One thing to further note on this issue, is that it is the regulating bodies that announce to the federal government in Canada whether they need more professionals. Based on such recommendations, the federal government then entices and grants permanent residency to those from overseas, only to see the regulating bodies not accredit these new professional migrants. This is a major issue in Canada and hence why we have so many 'true' IMGs not working as doctors. The regulating body signaled to the federal government to grant more permanent residencies to incoming migrants but then that same regulating body will not license them to practice.

 

Bizarre, I know! I have contacts within the Foreign Credentialing committees here in Canada and the above described issue is a major problem and disconnect.

 

When it comes to admission standards at medical schools in Canada, I meet with a number of Canadian medical deans each and every year and there are two things that they mention each year; the fact that some students don't gain admission in to medical school in Canada not because they will not become good doctors but more because we have a limited supply of places due to funding and capacity restrictions, and secondly because we have to administer 'demand management tools' which are imperfect and they let many good students slip through the cracks. Demand management tools are admissions tools that are used to get through the large number of applicants, hence why Canadian medical schools use biographical data, personal statements, volunteer experience, etc. There are so many students that have fantastic GPA results and MCAT scores, so to get through all the numbers, they have to employ 'demand management tools'. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

A few years ago over dinner, one Canadian medical dean mentioned that he would like to go to the top of a staircase and throw all the applications down the stairs. The first 100 that land at the bottom will be granted a place. Although this does not happen. The dean mentioned that the admissions process is not perfect, he knows that they do not admit some fantastic students that will make great doctors. Unfortunately nothing is perfect.

 

There are also many international medical schools, for example in the UK and Australia, that are on par, if not superior to many Canadian medical schools. So, it is difficult to discount international medical schools just because they accept students from Canada that did not gain admission here in Canada. Again, the reason why so many in Canada did not gain admission is not because they are not bright enough or will not be fantastic doctors, it is purely because there are too few spots and there are imperfect admissions processes. If they can handle the pressures and workload of passing the course at one of these top schools, then they are no different than a graduate of a Canadian medical school that graduated. Both were able to meet the challenges and rigours of the program.

 

At the end of the day, studying medicine outside of North America is not a decision that should be take lightly.

 

The tuition costs are very high and there is no guarantee of returning to Canada or the US.

 

And just because it may be your dream to become a physician does not necessarily mean that you will be a good one. So realistically everyone needs to really self reflect and decide whether chasing the 'dream' is best for them, will I actually succeed and be a good doctor and are the risk worth taking?

 

All these factors need to be considered. You have to really ask yourself the question of why? Why do you want to become a doctor?

 

In any case, just my two cents on the issue and some food for thought.

 

Hope you are well and wishing you all the best no matter where you are!

 

Take care,

 

Matt

[kmartelli]

Not going to happen in a million years.

Haha, you sure about that? I've never worked with IMGs but I've worked with some international med students. I've never seen them say that aortic stenosis was a diastolic murmur, or that they wanted to give lasix to increase someone's potassium (what?!), or that they suggest starting an ACE inhibitor on someone with an eGFR of 18, but I've seen Mac students do this. I'm sure it's a great school, the point is it's not the school that determines quality, it's the students and how hard they work. And international students generally work much harder than Canadian students because they have to prove themselves.

[Edict]

Haha, you sure about that? I've never worked with IMGs but I've worked with some international med students. I've never seen them say that aortic stenosis was a diastolic murmur, or that they wanted to give lasix to increase someone's potassium (what?!), or that they suggest starting an ACE inhibitor on someone with an eGFR of 18, but I've seen Mac students do this. I'm sure it's a great school, the point is it's not the school that determines quality, it's the students and how hard they work. And international students generally work much harder than Canadian students because they have to prove themselves.

 

Yeah, i agree, you can't paint IMGs with a broad brush. There are a million kinds. Some are ranked #1 in their class at their home university and want to immigrant to a western country. Some just don't have the ability and are trying to get in another way. The term IMG is way to broad to even consider stereotyping it.

[craigdanny]

Haha, you sure about that? I've never worked with IMGs but I've worked with some international med students. I've never seen them say that aortic stenosis was a diastolic murmur, or that they wanted to give lasix to increase someone's potassium (what?!), or that they suggest starting an ACE inhibitor on someone with an eGFR of 18, but I've seen Mac students do this. I'm sure it's a great school, the point is it's not the school that determines quality, it's the students and how hard they work. And international students generally work much harder than Canadian students because they have to prove themselves.

 

there is actually a variability in competency from students at mac,

 

it's a great school but their way of teaching leads to things like that from happening.

[craigdanny]

Just to add my two cents, there are many benefits of studying abroad, but there are also many drawbacks as well.

 

The one thing that everyone needs to realise is that different people study medicine in various places around the world for different reasons. Whether it be fulfilling a dream and goal, for the actual experience, or some other reason...

 

It is disheartening to hear when some place a stigma on those that do choose a different pathway.

 

The issue in Canada is that there are too few places at medical schools and the only reason why some don't gain admission is purely based on supply of places available at medical schools and the demand by students applying.

 

If you look at class sizes, the largest medical class size in Canada is UBC at over 250. UofT is over 220 and the rest sit around the 100-125 mark.

 

Looking at countries like Australia, universities like Melbourne, Sydney, Queensland and Monash all have class sizes over 350. Now, some many say how can you teach a class of that size and what are the quality standards. Actually each medical program is accredited by the AMC and the AMC, based on their audits, outline how many places a medical school can have, based on their facilities and the publics needs. University education is a federal responsibility meaning that the government takes a look at the overall picture and allots funding and places based on need.

 

I am not saying this is perfect, but a different point of view.

 

There are three main reasons why class sizes are smaller in Canada; lack of funding; the fact that university education is a provincial responsibility and not a federal one (hence why there are out of province quotas on places and whereby one province cares little for what happens in another province from a health care perspective); and finally because the profession itself is heavily regulated and regulate the number of doctors in the country.

 

One thing to further note on this issue, is that it is the regulating bodies that announce to the federal government in Canada whether they need more professionals. Based on such recommendations, the federal government then entices and grants permanent residency to those from overseas, only to see the regulating bodies not accredit these new professional migrants. This is a major issue in Canada and hence why we have so many 'true' IMGs not working as doctors. The regulating body signaled to the federal government to grant more permanent residencies to incoming migrants but then that same regulating body will not license them to practice.

 

Bizarre, I know! I have contacts within the Foreign Credentialing committees here in Canada and the above described issue is a major problem and disconnect.

 

When it comes to admission standards at medical schools in Canada, I meet with a number of Canadian medical deans each and every year and there are two things that they mention each year; the fact that some students don't gain admission in to medical school in Canada not because they will not become good doctors but more because we have a limited supply of places due to funding and capacity restrictions, and secondly because we have to administer 'demand management tools' which are imperfect and they let many good students slip through the cracks. Demand management tools are admissions tools that are used to get through the large number of applicants, hence why Canadian medical schools use biographical data, personal statements, volunteer experience, etc. There are so many students that have fantastic GPA results and MCAT scores, so to get through all the numbers, they have to employ 'demand management tools'. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

A few years ago over dinner, one Canadian medical dean mentioned that he would like to go to the top of a staircase and throw all the applications down the stairs. The first 100 that land at the bottom will be granted a place. Although this does not happen. The dean mentioned that the admissions process is not perfect, he knows that they do not admit some fantastic students that will make great doctors. Unfortunately nothing is perfect.

 

There are also many international medical schools, for example in the UK and Australia, that are on par, if not superior to many Canadian medical schools. So, it is difficult to discount international medical schools just because they accept students from Canada that did not gain admission here in Canada. Again, the reason why so many in Canada did not gain admission is not because they are not bright enough or will not be fantastic doctors, it is purely because there are too few spots and there are imperfect admissions processes. If they can handle the pressures and workload of passing the course at one of these top schools, then they are no different than a graduate of a Canadian medical school that graduated. Both were able to meet the challenges and rigours of the program.

 

At the end of the day, studying medicine outside of North America is not a decision that should be take lightly.

 

The tuition costs are very high and there is no guarantee of returning to Canada or the US.

 

And just because it may be your dream to become a physician does not necessarily mean that you will be a good one. So realistically everyone needs to really self reflect and decide whether chasing the 'dream' is best for them, will I actually succeed and be a good doctor and are the risk worth taking?

 

All these factors need to be considered. You have to really ask yourself the question of why? Why do you want to become a doctor?

 

In any case, just my two cents on the issue and some food for thought.

 

Hope you are well and wishing you all the best no matter where you are!

 

Take care,

 

Matt

 

just to be correct, UBC class size is ~288, UofT class size is ~250

 

and many other schools have class sizes >120

 

UWO has ~174

McMaster has ~200

UCalg ~170

UAlb ~170

UdeM is ~250

McGill is ~170

[OzTREKK]

Hey craigdanny,

 

Thanks for the update. Yes, running off the Oxford Seminar stats the figures you provided are bang on, with an average class size across all Canadian medical schools approx. 145.

 

As well, just to note, some medical schools like UBC and Calgary have secondary medical campuses, in rural areas, which decreases class size numbers on any one given campus.

 

Thanks again for the update!

 

Matt

[rswim]

Matt -

 

I always enjoy reading your posts.

 

I also thought you provided an excellent service when I was looking at Aussie schools. You got me into a great one and fortunately for me I wound up getting accepted back in Canada and returned after only a few months in the sun baked glorious Australia!

 

I have had a unique experience of being on both sides of the great wall of envy and arrogance.

 

A few observations now that I am nearing the end of my medical training in Canada (and looking forward to using some of my connections to establish an international elective with some great friends that I made down in Aussie land):

 

1.) The quality of the schools and education is roughly equal.

2.) The quality of the student body is GROSSLY different. At the Canadian school that I am studying at 90% of the class is extremely well qualified with very impressive resumes that undoubtable had a huge role in getting them into a Canadian school. I would also feel more than comfortable with 90-95% of my colleagues being a physician for one of my family members. The students in Canadian medical schools for the most part deserve the coveted spots that they occupy. In Australia, the class is much more varied. There are some brilliant people, but there are also a lot of pretty average students that would not have had a hope of getting in here in Canada. The Aussies for the most part went through the same arduous admission process as Canadians applying in Canada, but the Canadians studying abroad basically just had to sign on the dotted line and say they were able to shell out the big $$$. For this reason quite a few of the international students studying in Australia were very much sub par. It was somewhat embarrassing that some of them were going to be doctors.

3.) The quality of an education doesn't mean much without quality students. You could take a bunch of community college kids and put them through Harvard for four years and they wouldn't be the same as Harvard graduates even if they did manage to pass their coursework. You get out what you put in plus a little. The reason Canadian medical schools produce such world class physicians is because they only admit the very best and brightest (for the most part).

4.) I advocate strongly for international medical graduates and I very much hope that the very best and brightest have an opportunity to compete for a few spots to practice medicine with the Canadian graduates who have already succeeded in the competition to practice in Canada. There are no free rides but I think that it is important to give a small number of people a second chance at competing amongst themselves to gain access back into the Canadian system. In the sporting world this would be analogous to a "play-in", you don't get to knock out the teams that have already proven themselves but you do have a chance to compete for one or two last spots through the backdoor.

5.) It is extremely important that this backdoor entrance is fair for everyone and isn't purely based on who you know and how much influence/money you have.

 

Matt - I think you have a great business and you do a great job promoting a great opportunity for Canadian students but it is important that (like you mentioned) they are aware of the risks and challenges that they will face. There is not easy way to practice medicine in Canada (nor should there be). I think that if an Aussie school were to raise their admit standards to be on par with Canadian (not setting minimum MCAT scores but aiming for an average of around 31 in the admitting class with an average GPA of 3.8 from a reputable University (again not setting a minimum but having a goal of a minimum) it would very much improve the quality of students that go down there and it would improve the reputation amongst Canadian medical students and faculty.

 

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

[leviathan]

Matt -

 

I always enjoy reading your posts.

 

I also thought you provided an excellent service when I was looking at Aussie schools. You got me into a great one and fortunately for me I wound up getting accepted back in Canada and returned after only a few months in the sun baked glorious Australia!

 

I have had a unique experience of being on both sides of the great wall of envy and arrogance.

 

A few observations now that I am nearing the end of my medical training in Canada (and looking forward to using some of my connections to establish an international elective with some great friends that I made down in Aussie land):

 

1.) The quality of the schools and education is roughly equal.

2.) The quality of the student body is GROSSLY different. At the Canadian school that I am studying at 90% of the class is extremely well qualified with very impressive resumes that undoubtable had a huge role in getting them into a Canadian school. I would also feel more than comfortable with 90-95% of my colleagues being a physician for one of my family members. The students in Canadian medical schools for the most part deserve the coveted spots that they occupy. In Australia, the class is much more varied. There are some brilliant people, but there are also a lot of pretty average students that would not have had a hope of getting in here in Canada. The Aussies for the most part went through the same arduous admission process as Canadians applying in Canada, but the Canadians studying abroad basically just had to sign on the dotted line and say they were able to shell out the big $$$. For this reason quite a few of the international students studying in Australia were very much sub par. It was somewhat embarrassing that some of them were going to be doctors.

3.) The quality of an education doesn't mean much without quality students. You could take a bunch of community college kids and put them through Harvard for four years and they wouldn't be the same as Harvard graduates even if they did manage to pass their coursework. You get out what you put in plus a little. The reason Canadian medical schools produce such world class physicians is because they only admit the very best and brightest (for the most part).

4.) I advocate strongly for international medical graduates and I very much hope that the very best and brightest have an opportunity to compete for a few spots to practice medicine with the Canadian graduates who have already succeeded in the competition to practice in Canada. There are no free rides but I think that it is important to give a small number of people a second chance at competing amongst themselves to gain access back into the Canadian system. In the sporting world this would be analogous to a "play-in", you don't get to knock out the teams that have already proven themselves but you do have a chance to compete for one or two last spots through the backdoor.

5.) It is extremely important that this backdoor entrance is fair for everyone and isn't purely based on who you know and how much influence/money you have.

 

Matt - I think you have a great business and you do a great job promoting a great opportunity for Canadian students but it is important that (like you mentioned) they are aware of the risks and challenges that they will face. There is not easy way to practice medicine in Canada (nor should there be). I think that if an Aussie school were to raise their admit standards to be on par with Canadian (not setting minimum MCAT scores but aiming for an average of around 31 in the admitting class with an average GPA of 3.8 from a reputable University (again not setting a minimum but having a goal of a minimum) it would very much improve the quality of students that go down there and it would improve the reputation amongst Canadian medical students and faculty.

 

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

I agree with your comments about getting what you put into it, and the school having less to do with outcomes than the students themselves. That said, I disagree with what you consider to be a superior or mediocre student when you're using undergraduate GPA and MCAT as a metric to compare quality. If you tried to predict the GPAs of those students you considered 'brilliant' or 'average' in Australia, I bet you would find the results were pretty random.

 

And while there is some correlation between those factors and medical school performance, that correlation is extremely weak, and that is backed up by published research. The average r-values are somewhere around 0.2-0.3 depending on if you use science GPA, cumulative GPA, or MCAT subject scores. While MCAT and GPA are still the best tools we have at predicting success, all I'm saying is there are far too many outliers in both directions. To use my example above, you would probably not be guessing whose GPA in Australia was high or low with a correlation of 0.2.

 

If you look at the statistics of these correlations, you know that there are many people who were more deserving of a seat in a Canadian medical school than some of the ones admitted. These people who are statistical outliers should have a chance to prove their worth by applying to one of the limited IMG residency spots, if they want to work hard and take that risk. Having a 3.8 GPA cut off , in my opinion, would not really help the 'right' students get that second chance, and you would be fighting against the spirit of what these schools are about (to the students; of course to the schools it's all about money, but I digress... ).

[rswim]

I think we have beat this dead horse before.

 

 

What i consider "brilliant" has nothing to do with MCAT or GPA in fact I don't know 99% of me colleagues GPA or MCAT scores. I just mean overall talented people.

 

Show up at any annual music/art/sport/scientific presentation/charity/clinic etc and the talent of the students will blow you away. I am in awe everytime I go to some event, often totally unrelated to medicine, and see the hidden talents that people have. These are all things that would be invisible to the single double sided fill in the blanks application forms that a lot of international schools use for admission.

 

Anyhow - it was just an observation that I had between the two places. There were definitely some very impressive IMGs, there was just a much bigger range.

[leviathan]

I think we have beat this dead horse before.

 

 

What i consider "brilliant" has nothing to do with MCAT or GPA in fact I don't know 99% of me colleagues GPA or MCAT scores. I just mean overall talented people.

 

Show up at any annual music/art/sport/scientific presentation/charity/clinic etc and the talent of the students will blow you away. I am in awe everytime I go to some event, often totally unrelated to medicine, and see the hidden talents that people have. These are all things that would be invisible to the single double sided fill in the blanks application forms that a lot of international schools use for admission.

 

Anyhow - it was just an observation that I had between the two places. There were definitely some very impressive IMGs, there was just a much bigger range.

If you don't think of GPA or MCAT to consider people brilliant, then why do you want a higher GPA standards at international schools? Wouldn't a better argument be to have people who are more well-rounded? I wouldn't argue with that.

[Edict]

I think rswim means people who are overall talented. You can sort of know people who are talented when you see them. Its an overall feel you get, are they partying or are they studying a lot. Are they active in the school or are they missing classes. Do they ask questions that show obviously they weren't paying attention? Rswim has the unique experience of experiencing Australian and Canadian medical schools. I agree with what he is saying.

[leviathan]

I think rswim means people who are overall talented. You can sort of know people who are talented when you see them. Its an overall feel you get, are they partying or are they studying a lot. Are they active in the school or are they missing classes. Do they ask questions that show obviously they weren't paying attention? Rswim has the unique experience of experiencing Australian and Canadian medical schools. I agree with what he is saying.

I am sure there are more talented people in Canadian medical schools, no doubt. The problem is there are many Australian students who are more talented than some of their counterparts back in Canada. The admission system is inaccurate. Setting arbitrary GPA requirements wont fix that, just as they haven't in Canada.

[rswim]

I am sure there are more talented people in Canadian medical schools, no doubt. The problem is there are many Australian students who are more talented than some of their counterparts back in Canada. The admission system is inaccurate. Setting arbitrary GPA requirements wont fix that, just as they haven't in Canada.

 

I don't think that GPA and MCAT should be the primary scale used to compare one applicant to another.

 

I do suggest that some sort of flexible minimum standard with a goal of a decent average for the admitting class be achieved for IMGs and that it would improve reputability at least a little.

 

Like I mentioned there shouldn't be absolute minimum standards but I think that if you get a bunch of really bright all arounders into your medical school there will naturally be a pretty good AVERAGE mcat and gpa.

 

Even if a school like Harvard or a top Canadian school were to eliminate the MCAT from the their admission requirement I'd bet if you took all the student who were admitted the average would still be pretty high. From being involved in the interview process at my Canadian medical school I can tell you that they put VERY little weight on the MCAT and some otherwise very talented people with low MCATs still get admitted but despite the low emphasis on average MCAT scores are pretty high.

[BoyInTheBubble]

I agree with your comments about getting what you put into it, and the school having less to do with outcomes than the students themselves.

 

The quality of education/teacher is irrelevant to the performance of a "straight A" student. As in, they get straight A's regardless of the situation.

[leviathan]

I think med school plays a small part in didactics and how much you learn, but a good student can still overcome any deficiencies in a school unless they're major problems. Most of med school learning is independent anyway, and the school is just there to give you a schedule/curriculum to follow.

 

When it comes to clerkship though I have to admit there is a major difference in quality in Carib schools vs. Canadian. Yes you do rotations in the US but the quality can be either excellent and on par with Canadians (if not better in some cases), but they could also be terrible. Being a straight A student in undergrad and learning the knowledge-aspect won't make up for the lack of clinical experience if you end up getting bad rotations.

[A-Stark]

I think that makes sense. Is it fair to say that for somewhere like Saba there is much less standardization of rotations? I've met several students in community hospitals who were trying to obtain emerg shifts in the absence of a true rotation, and another doing urology with little to no practical experience (looked more observership than clerkship). Other students managed to get more or less the same rotations as Dal clerks.

[rogerroger]

It is silly that so many premeds find underhanded ways of entering the medical profession. A shortage should not be fixed by individuals who do not have the capacity to become good doctors - and I bet it is rare to get these from sloppy IMG programs.

 

 

I'm a CMG, yet I have worked with a lot of IMGs. You are wrong. Many of those who make it back from abroad are rock solid and have jumped through a lot of hoops in order to practice in Canada. It is way more competitive to practice as an IMG. If you are bad you are very likely weeded out early in the game.

 

I really think the medical school years have a limited role in determining how "good" a doctor you are. It is the stuff that comes afterwards which moulds the good physician.

 

With this said, because of the high selectivity in determining those who can return the financial risk of going abroad is massive. Unless you have easy access to large amounts of non-interest incurring funds I think the debt risk is too high to be a reasonable option for most.