dentistry looking more appealing

[Guest MJ]

Is anyone else finding yourself in the same predicament? I applied to both meds and dentistry, with dentistry being the backup. However, dentistry is looking more and more appealing. The hours are better, less training in terms of the # of years (and possibly knowledge?), and more money. Anyone else having similar thoughts?

[Guest plugger]

Finally all you med try- hards are coming to your senses - its good to hear from someone who is actually interested in enjoying life. You know, all the good stuff, time at the cottage, taking your kids to their hockey games, travelling the world, enjoying dinner with your spouse (stress-free) and all those toys you can afford, (the one's you wanted as a teen but could never have) - ah yes, the life of a successful dentist (not the lame type who cannot work with people, but the one who cares about his patients and has a keen sense for business)- it's a great profession. And of course, you don't have to stay in school until you're forty to make good money- sounds good to me! But please - STAY OUT OF THE PROFESSION IF YOU'RE JUST ANOTHER MED SCHOOL REJECT- THERE ARE ENOUGH WINERS AS IT IS. If meds is what wou really want, then stick to it -if your grades are good enough for dentistry, then they should be good enough for medicine. DON'T SELL YOURSELF SHORT! I have an opinion just like everyone else - I wanted meds too, then realized I didn't enjoy research, you make more money working than volunteering(duh?), and from almost all the premeds that I spoke to, we really didn't get along. Don't get me wrong, I have a few friends in MEDS but they tell me they are defintely the minority. So I chose to pursue Dentistry and have found the positives blow away the negatives. If you don't have a sense of humor, stay out of the dental profession- there are enough social retards. Finally, if you need an ego boost, stick to meds, hey you may even enjoy it.

[Guest bad hombre]

damn it people! i was pretty sure i wanted to do meds. i read a post, and now i don't even know. i mean, it's just a post right? but wtf. maybe you guys are right. maybe dents IS really better. thing is, i don't know if it's the thing for me or not. i used to think so (i've shadowed some dentists before) but now i'm not sure anymore. arghhh.

[Guest toothy]

it doesn't seem right that I would be trying to steer people away from dentistry, but somebody ought to take the other side of the argument. The points raised about advantages of the dental career are valid, but I'd just like to remind you of the biggest problem--the work itself.

 

I am not familiar with all medical specialties, but dentistry seems to have a huge amount of time in surgical-type procedures. Not a whole lot of fancy diagnosis here. Unlike at the hospital, you're the only doc at the operatory. Just you and the teeth, 8-12 hours a day everyday. Think of the small amount of tolerances allowed in filling a tooth. The drill is sharp, the space in the mouth is limited, and you better not damage the adjacent teeth! Sure, the consequences of accidental damage is not great, but try telling the patient they got a permanent nick in the other teeth due to your lapse in concentration!

 

One of the biggest disadvantages of a career in dentistry is the stress involved. It's mostly self-imposed, but it could be overwhelming sometimes. If you decide to pursue this path, you better love making neat little shapes in teeth (or be prepared to do so).

[Guest plugger]

I could not agree more. A friend of mine who is a pediatric dentist said that he couldn't take doing general dentistry because he said it was too stressful - this coming from a man who works on children all day. He told me that he was such a perfectionist that if he couldn't do veneers and bridging to the best of his abilities each and every time, then it wasn't worth doing at all - he cited this as his major reason for specializing. Dentistry can be very stressful, it involves precision and a whole lot of concentration and patience (most people do not like you!). I had one dentist tell me that dentistry would be simple if you didn't have to work in someone's mouth! - So think hard about what you want to do - its a great profession if you can concentrate consistently for long periods of time and don't mind being told that a patient would rather give birth than to see your face. It comes with the territory I guess.

[Guest Ian Wong]

It really depends what you want out of life. If I thought for a minute that I'd enjoy the actual work of a dentist, I think I'd jump at the chance. Less training, less working hours than doctors, no pager, equal or more money, no government involvement, etc.

 

However, I'd hate the actual work. I'm not studying this hard now, nor did I study hard in undergrad so that I could go into a job I hated. I'm not interested in drilling into teeth, putting on crowns, doing root canals, etc. It just doesn't make me excited.

 

As it happens, I'm looking into a field that is probably the closest to dentistry as far as the anatomic area goes. As an ENT surgeon, depending on what fellowships I do, I could be the guy taking out oral cancers, removing tonsils, lasering polyps off vocal chords, operating on thyroid cancers, doing nose jobs or ear jobs, fixing facial fractures, fixing perforated ear drums, etc. I'll be spending a lot more time in residency, and despite that probably making the same kind of salary as a busy dentist, but I'll go to work enjoying what I do. That's worth getting an extra day off a week, because you'll be doing the same job for the next 20-40 years.

 

As a med student, I've had the opportunity to deliver babies on my own, give shots, cut out dangerous skin moles, assist in surgeries, diagnose, set, and cast fractures, suture up cuts, and in general just learn an incredible amount of useful health information that is directly applicable not only to my patient's lives, but to my own. Those rewards make the long hours more bearable and worthwhile.

 

Yes, I'll be working harder and longer in training than any general dentist (and probably most dental specialists too), and once out of training, definitely working longer hours then them too, but I'll be doing something that I love, and that I'll still find interesting 10, 20, 30 years down the road. If dentistry strikes your fancy the same way, it's an awesome field of its own. It's just not for everybody.

 

Figure out what interests you, and then go for that.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Saber]

Hi

No offense plugger but by the tone and underlying thoughts of your posts you really seem bitter about not getting any med school interviews due to your poor Verbal performance on the MCAT. In fact all arrows point to the fact that you wanted medicine but just couldnt make the cut, so infact Dentistry is YOUR second choice. Now you must validate the greatness of your fate to the world and to yourself.

 

To tell you the truth, dentistry is a great Gig, however you do feel limited in the scope and depth of what you can do for your patients. It can and will become very tedious. I was in dental school (admittingly, I did not get into medicine, but then got accepted into med school after 2nd yr of dentistry) Dentistry is a tough job, you will never hear anyone say how much they love their dentist, nor will you ever gain the same respect as an MD within the medical community. All the dentists I have spoken with say that Dentistry is treated like a second class citizen, right from the get go with students "settling" for it when the dont get into med school.

 

The money issue: The money is there but start up costs are huge, it takes years to get rolling and then your overhead always hovers around 50-65%. Everything is disposable in dentistry and there is rarely if every a patient who just comes into chat during an appointment without the use of instruments/materials etc.

 

Its great that your happy with where you may end up (if accepted) but remember dont cut up people who are headed to medicine or land in dentistry because it is their second choice, you may just be throwing stones at yourself

 

Take care and good luck

Saber

[Guest plugger]

You shouldn't make assumptions,

I wanted medicine yes - in high school - that's before I had even begun to research the profession. My mother works for a family physician who told me that I'd better take a long hard look into the profession before deciding that indeed I wanted to have anything to do with it. Thank God I did. The only reason, thereafter, I took the MCAT was because my parents had said that I might not get in to DENTS - this is of course after I had shadowed a dentist for a few months. I thought, hey my marks are good enough for meds so why limit myself. My motivation for further education was starting to fall - and I actually almost left halfway through MCAT - what a waste of money. I was willing to do anything just as long as I didn't have to go back for another year of undergrad - I was finding my undergrad experience after first year pretty useless. Anyways to sum up, the only reason I chose to apply to MEDS was to keep my options open - I always have -but I have felt for a couple years now that life as dentist is a lot more appealing to ME, maybe not you, but for me and have chosen to pursue dentistry. I knew trying to get into MAC was a crap shoot, and I hadn't really done any big time research - so I had little chance at Ottawa after my third year, so I decided to write the MCAT and I wish I could have that summer back. Right now I just want exams to be over so I can relax and hey maybe you're right - maybe you have known what I've wanted all my life after all, you are in med school (dentists everywhere- we all bow down to you Dr.) - Psyche

[Guest Saber]

Hey man if dentistry is what you want then thats excellent!!! You will enjoy it and love the schooling. I also believe you will be really successful at it because if your heart's in something you will kick ass. I think thats the point, persue what you are really keen on rather than what the herd is doing. I was laughed at when I switched from Dents to meds partway through but for me it was important to go after what I was interested in.

 

For the record I have a lot of respect for dentists and I dont think that MD's are any better, nor that the work they do is any more important (after all when was the last time a family Doc really cured you or helped you out in a huge way) I also found Dent students to be way more layed back and not freaking out over every little detail and grade. They were more social and "cool" so to speak without that "dorky" edge that med students are notorious for. I think that just says something about the ridiculous and largely inneffective selection process for med schools

 

So I think you will love dents and I wish you the best. BTW where do you find bikini models anyways?

 

Take care dude

Saber

[Guest plugger]

High school president

Good luck to you too.

[Guest Saber]

High School ey? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Guest UBCdent]

Just some comments about some of the above posts...

 

Despite the general perception that dentistry contains a lot of med school rejectees, I have found that in my class there were also people who got into med and chose dentisitry as their first choice and the majority were people who only applied to dentistry. Of course there are a some who really wanted med but decided to "settle" and I really hope those people will learn to love dentistry because otherwise it really is a waste of resources to educate them.

 

I personaly never wanted to go into medicine and thats after being concieved and raised by two physicians. I think the only thing I would have ever liked in medicine would have been ENT (go Ian!) and thats only because I loved the ENT doc I had to see throughout my childhood.

 

As for dentistry, I like all the same things most people have mentioned...shorter schooling, private practice (not paid by the government), potential for a short work week, and still being in the top 10% of national incomes. And eventhough people say dentistry is so limited and potentially repetitive and boring I've been exposed through shadowing to a wide variety of different procedures that I personally see as always presenting differently and therefore requiring a dynamic and ever changing treatment strategy.

 

As to people saying that med students are so much different than dents and that they don't think they can get along with a "med student" but dents are more "cool". I would have to say that in my class (which is totally combined with meds for 2 yrs) I have seen that sometimes you think this because there are so many more meds and therefore the number of social rejects/"all I do is study" type of people seems more because there are more. However, there are still those type of people that you wouldn't get along with in dents but since there are only 40 dents and therefore a much smaller number of inept people you don't really notice them as much. Overall, there are people in both meds and dents that you will get along with and this really shouldn't be an issue as to what career path you choose.

 

Finally, around how dentists are percieved by the population...it is changing and it is changing fast... thanks to better schooling that addresses more than just the surgical skills and deals with social aspects and patient interaction. Plus pain management improvements and all the new cosmetic services and more advanced/long lasting services that dentists are providing. Of course people hated dentists when all they used to do was drop and ugly chunk of metal into your tooth or rip out your tooth and leave a nice gapping space. But now people are seeking out dental services without experience any pain (cosmetics, filling replacements, ortho, etc). If your were in any of these fields your patients have actually sought you out and will be pretty appreciative when you send them home with a nice straight smile and shimmering white teeth.

 

Okay thats enough babbling on for now...All I can say is I love the field I'm going into and I'd encourage everyone to have a real good look at dentistry and medicine (or any potential career) before you commit yourself to many years of schooling, large debts, and a lifetime of working as a whatever you choose.

[Guest klutz]

okay, obvoiusly you need the social skills and the desire to help others, as well as a fair amount of business sense. In terms of manual dexterity, how good do you have to be?

 

Like someone else that posted earlier (bad hombre i think), i scored well on the perceptual section of the DAT but only average (around the median) on the soap carving. Will this make me a bad dentist or even a mediocre one? can one make significant improvements in manual dexterity if one pracises enough during dental school? thank you for addressing my concerns

[Guest Ratdick]

In my opinion, there is no relationship between one's DAT carving skills to their ability to drill preps, wax teeth, make inlays, fill teeth....

If this wasn't the case, then why doens't the states require a carving section.. instead they have a math/ orgo chem portion.

[Guest Milkytooth]

I have some additional information to add to your post. You mentioned that dentists do not carry a pager. This is not really true coz most of my dental friends carry either one pager or more frequently a cell. They also receive urgency calls and there are on call hours. Of course, it's not as bad as in med but this is still part of a dentist's life.

 

I would like to share my opinions regarding the $$$ aspects, which might be the major concern of most of you. It's true that per hour, dentists make more. You can bill from 0 up to 4500$ per hour. It really depends on the patient flow. This implies that a successful dentist can easily make up to 400K as annual net income. This is much more than a specialist physician whose salary is capped by the governement. Well, this is at least true in Quebec.

 

I finished dental and decided to give it up not because I did not have fun working on tooth and playing with the handpieces (or commonly known as drills). I like the mecanical part of the dentistry but I love more the biological part of medicine. In dentistry, you will never have the chance to fully understand human body because it is focused mainly in the head and neck area. So, if you are someone curious, eager to know more and like challenges in life, medicine is still a better choice. However, if you prefer an easier life, easy money and enjoy manipulating with high-tech stuffs, dentistry might be the right path.

 

BTW, working inside a mouth is not as awful as you imagine. And also, as a dentist, you are obliged to do all the procedures. If you dislike bleeding such as surgical tooth extraction or periodontal surgeries, just refer the patients to your collegues.

[Guest Milkytooth]

Typo error. As a dentist, you are NOT obliged to do all the procedures. It solely depends on your capacity and personality.

 

The major drawback in dentistry in my view is the patients. The competition is ferocious. Sometimes you have to "sell" treatments. But one thing is at true everywhere in Canada, you can not starve either being a physician or a dentist. The unemployment is almost non existing in both professions. Anyway, I was like many of you: did not make it for the med right after high school but was fortunate enough to gain a least entrance to dental. I did not regret those 4 years though. It was fun to know how to cast a customized post core, how to make a denture, how to shape a tooth abutment for a crown or bridge. But please do not forget the key to success in dentistry is to have ENOUGH PATIENTS. Ciao!

 

Milkytooth

DMD, medical student2

[Guest BC guy]

Milkytooth:

As a primary care MD, I would imagine you have to have enough patients also. As a specialist, you have to have enough patients too, except that you are relying on the GPs for referrals. I probably am missing something here, but I do not see the difference of patient load requirement for one to have a "successful" career between these two fields. And in both these fields you have to sell yourself to the patients or the GPs if you are a Specialist, in Dent as well as Med.

[Guest toothy]

milkytooth's statement about this is so true... To get the big bucks dentists have to be good at convincing patients to fork over the cash to do stuff they never knew they needed, and don't really benefit from. For example a patient could be perfectly fine with a slightly chipped tooth, but then as a dentist I convince him/her that it is totally unsightly and needs a veneer. The result, the patient gets a boost of self-esteem (which they wouldn't need if I didn't make it such a big issue) and the dentist gets a boost in the wallet.

The same goes for extraction vs. root canal+crown.

[Guest Milkytooth]

Thanks for replying.

 

Trust me! Patient flow really matters in Dentistry. A successful dentist knows how to propose a treatment to a potential patient. Being "skillful" at this or not makes BIG difference. Some dentists earn less than 100K/year whereas some can bill more than 600K/year. The BEST way to earn big bucks is to own 1 or 2 clinics. Having good patients (=loyal, relatively wealthy, highly educated coz they care more about their teeth and appearance) will let you hire other dentists and hygienists. Are you people aware that tooth cleaning can bring a lot of money coz in less than 30 min, you waste 25 cents of prophy paste in exchange of nearly 100$ (if you also take radiographs)?

 

BTW, a dentist should at least bill 100$/hour to balance the clinic expenses. My friend, who is working in percentage (35%), earns 55-60K last year, which is not too bad for his first year. The goal in all this is to own a clinic ASAP and to build a loyal patient pool to let you start your own pratice. But never purchase a clinic unless you are sure to have enough patients coz this way you might go bankrupt.

 

I quit dentisty not because I do not like the nature of the work (I still like drilling, molding waxes,... it's fun!). I do not mind patient complaining either coz I know I provide works of quality. The 2 aspects which prompted me to switch into med is that:

1) Dentistry is toot focused on head and neck. If you wish to learn more about human body, there is no other way than med. It really bugs me a lot and I realize this late in my 3rd academic year.

2) I hate selling treatments. I want to take time to do a good job. I want to do well-fitted crowns, stable dentures, fillings with nice morphologies. I do not want to put scraps into my own patient's mouth and charge high prices. I would feel guilty coz I would not want to be treated the same way by other dentists either.

3) To answer your question, BC guy, in Quebec children are insured by the province till 11 years of age and this excluding orthodontics and esthetics. You can not make a lot from kids coz government do not pay much for primary dentition treatments. As a physician, I will not have to worry about the patient flow. One of tutor told me that very few family physicians accepts new patients right now. The reason is simple: there are too MANY patients for too FEW physicians and this phenomenon is true in all medical specialties. However, you do not get paid much for each act: 10-15$ for a consultation or follow-up, 30-35$ for a COMPLETE exam which can sometimes take up to 45-60 min! A family MD normally sees 4-8 patients/hour. You can calculate by yourself and should figure out that family MD indeed do not make much... Any furthermore, there is this salary cap imposed by the government. Secondly, as a newly graduated MD, you only earn about 70-80% of your wages if you decide to work in the metropolitain areas whereas you earn 120% if you serve a remot area... The Quebec government wishes to attract more MD to settle down in the North of the province where the shortage of physicians is becoming alarming. Oh, this is true also in Dentistry. The need is greater in rural areas.

So, the verdict is that there are pros and cons in every profession. You will never discover the negative sides until you get in...

[Guest UBCdent]

Hey Milkytooth I was just wondering where you did your DMD. I was just curious because I'm in the first year of my DMD and we are totally combined with meds for the first 2 years. I guess I was just curious if you did your degree with meds for the first two years and if it was through that experience that you began to realize you enjoyed looking at the whole body and dealing with broader medical issues. Also, where are you doing you med degree now?

[Guest Milkytooth]

I did it at UofMontreal. I did not apply to McGill at all coz my English was not fluent enough. As the dental program at UofM is completely separated from med program, I had no choice but redo the first 2 years. In DMD, we do not use the PBL (problem based learning) method whereas in MD we do. Therefore, there is no possibility asking for credentials. However, I was not demanded to pass the premed year (anatomy, physiology, cell bio...).

 

I do not regret doing those 2 extra years though coz I was able to fill in those knowledge "holes" I carried throughout the whole dental program. And right now, I fill that I am much confortable talking about physiopathology. BTW, I am not the only one switching program. There is another female classmate of mine and she finished first in my old class. A real nerd but smart.

 

Yeah, my dental faculty dean used to talk about how bad the dental program would be if it were totally controlled by med: less research bursaries in dental disciplines, less dentists hired to teach classes, dental students being less prepared for future work market coz we all know that most dentists do not pratice in the same settings as physicians. DMD or DDS work on their own accounts whereas MD work mostly in hospitals except primary care MD. It is generally true that dentists nearly have no place in hospitals. Even oral surgeons have great difficulties finding one in a surgical teams. A hospital director would preferably go for a ENT rather than a OMS. However, I do think the same way. I think he was simply trying to protect his own position. I would rather do it with med students and build a strong basis in fundamental sciences. As to the manual dexterities, dental biomechanics, you can develop it gradually later. This is merely my personal opinion. One might think the same as my old faculty dean and I am fine with that too.

 

Hope this answered your question.

[Guest Milkytooth]

I am doing my MD at the same school.

 

During my fourth year DMD, I was matched to Eastman Dental Center, Rochester, for AEGD program and I declined it coz I decided to give med a try (I was not sure to get in at all). And later, I got an interview for master degree in Prosthodontics but I did not show up coz I received my acceptance to MD from UofM by that time. I applied only to UofMontreal, Laval and Sherbrooke.

 

At first, I felt a little bit depressed too. Seeing my old classmates working and making decent money where I had to study like a nut for exams was not funny at all. I talked, several times, to my parents about quitting med coz I simply felt overwhelmed by peer pressure (competition). Our faculty uses numeric notions for the first 2 years unlike pass/fail at McGill...

 

Anyway, stay in BC. It's more fun there. I do not like Montreal much coz it's too cold. In BC, you people have big campus and near the Pacific...

 

Oh, one of my dental collegues got accepted into the perio program at UBC last year. He is in his first year. As you are still in your first year, maybe during your third year, you may have the chance being supervised by him. As to his name, I will keep it secret and let you discover it by yourself

[Guest walker]

Hi Milkytooth,

 

I was wondering if you have any comments about the meds/dents school system in quebec? I'm not trying to break up the country here, but I have the impression that maybe it's a little bit easier there? I am saying this because for one thing, it is more restrictive in that english speaking OOP applicants will not have an easy time trying to get into a french school like UoM of Laval. I also remember from the multiple times that I took the DAT, that the average french DAT score was a few notches below that of the english score. I think this may be due to the fewer people writing it. Did you think the acceptance rates over there are a bit higher than U of T or UBC?

 

Also, I was curious to know if they looked mostly at your undergrad or DMD grades for the meds application.

 

Thanks.

[Guest Milkytooth]

Go to your school library and you should be able to find this book. Check the entrance difficulty of each medical faculty.

www.amazon.com/exec/obido...86-9185416

 

The entrance difficulty to medical faculty at UofMontreal is ranked 4th after McGill, Toronto and UBC. So, is it easier to get in? I really can't tell. It depends on what type of students a Faculty is looking for. And to tell you a fact, for the past 3 years, UofM has been among the 3 best in the canadian national medical board exam. So, I do not think one should only look at the rankings provided by magazines. We have 2 PBL and 1 lecture per week whereas McGill has the inverse. PBL has been proven to be efficient in intergrating different concepts in medicine. And the MOST important factor is not how well reputated your faculty is across the country but rather how well you are ranked in your class, right?

 

As to your second question, med at UofM does NOT take into account what type of bachelor degree one candidate holds before application. Whether your undergrad is in art, law, engineer or any health related disciplines such as pharmacy, occupational therapy, physiotherapy, dentistry, chiropratics, vet med, you have EQUAL chance of getting accepted. The only difference is that those who are not from health sciences will have to pass through the PREMED year (preparotory year). So, actually with my dental degree, I did not have any advantage over other applicants BEFORE MD admission. However, I have to recognize AFTER MD admission, I have advantages over others in certain courses such as infectious diseases/microbiology, pathology, pharmacology, dermatology, ENT (big time!) whereas in neurology, G/O, locomotor, pneumology and others I did not feel having stronger basis than those from premed. As to those who did pharmacy before, well... you already know the answere. Physiotherapists are good at locomotor system (rheumatology and orthopedics) and neurology. Chiro are good at nearly everything coz their program (which lasts 5 years) is very similar to MD program; they even had the chance of doing delivery during their formation. Occupational are good at psy and interviewing patients... Don't you think recruiting people from different background enriches tremendously medicine, especially during PBL or small group discussion?

 

Dentistry, in comparison to MD, is definitively easier to get in, in Quebec. DAT means nothing coz it only serves to cut off those who will never develop enough dexterity to pratice dentistry, quoted from one of my teachers in Dentistry. I scored about about 18 in the 3D perception and carving (and other stuffs, I can't remember) and about 22-23 in the science parts (I think, for this, I was above the 90 percentil... not sure). You might think I did not score high in the manual part but actually I did quite well in prosthodontics (either fixed or removable) and other hand-related fields during my dental years. Near the end of the fourth year, the head of prosthodontic department even came to me and recommended me to apply for prosthodontics. And that was the reason why I got an interview... (but I did not tell him that I also applied to MD). I scored 91% overall in the US dental board 2 years ago.

 

No matter which school you are from (UofT, Harvard or whatever...), if you do not harm to your patients and if they like you, then you are a good practitioner! I never not want to be extremely rich, I simply want to serve my patients well. It's true that I want their cash but it is also true that I will give them my 110% and their tooth restorations will last the time they should...

 

Am I too naive? ;p

[Guest DMD]

I am a dentist specialised in Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery. Before entering Dental school i think I was the same as you guys. Anything you do in life is no real big deal, yes as a dental student you want to do everything and know everything. Once you start working you will soon find out the less you do (the more specific you are in your practice) the better of you will do.

Now i do the same thing day and night (extract teeth), and make good (great) money for doing something that most people would say is boring.

I think you should only go to dental school if you are really interested, or else you will be one of these want to be MDs that has a bad practice and is frustated in life. Don't fool yourself thinking that you will have an exciting life, and will be saving the world, but know that you will have a great life, good money and in the end fairly easy work.