Prepping for Med School (non-science student)

[Guest marcinTO]

Hi All,

 

I am a "mature" student who is completing an MBA at present, having no life science background since high school (10+ years ago). I expect to have an MBA GPA of 3.9-4.0, so I would hope to get admitted to Mac Med (my #1 choice).

 

I am trying to use the time between now and the 1st day of class (2004 or 2005) to get up to scratch in whatever courses I'll need to succeed.

 

So my questions are:

 

1) What courses should I take (or books should I read) to have enough knowledge to start med school without a disadvantage. I'm getting the impression everyone else knows a great deal about anatomy, biology and physiology.

2) How much organic and inorganic chem will I actually need.

3) Can I omit physics (my math skills are strong)

4) What can I do to have a better than intro level grasp of years 1 & 2

5) Why does Mac not require any life sciences courses. Are all life science materials taught from scratch?

6) And most importantly, how well do you think someone can fare who has a pretty bad memory. Does med school force your memory to improve.

 

Thanks a lot,

Marc

[Guest macMDstudent]

1) An understanding of anatomy and physiology would be a great starting point. The people without a life science background in my class have all raved about a book called:

 

Principles of Anatomy and Physiology, Tenth Edition

Gerard J. Tortora, Bergen Community College

Sandra Reynolds Grabowski, Purdue University

ISBN: 0-471-41501-4

©2003

 

I have not used it personally since I had a pretty strong background in those areas previous to meds, but I think it is a good starting point.

 

2) I would suggest that biochemistry would be more important than organic chemistry. There may be enought in the Tortora book to get you started, I'm not sure. A very basic manual of biochemistry would be enough to get you up to speed.

 

3)Totally omit physics. There has been no need for it as yet. Maybe if you do radiology or something will it become necessary, but until then forget it.

 

4) See #1. Seriously, if you grasp all the concepts in the whole Tortora book, you will be ahead of your class. If you want to go hard core, then may look at some pharmacology, immunology, genetics, microbiology.... The problem here is that the list is endless!

 

5) There are no life science courses per se. We learn about each system's anatomy, physiology and pathophysiology as we do each problem. Therefore if you have an overview before starting, you're doing well.

 

6) Medicine is a lot of memory work, there is no way around that. But don't worry, medical education is based on repetition, so what you study on paper in years 1 and 2, you will see in the wards as a clerk and then be responsible for as a resident. That is why it takes so many years. That's normal!

 

Overall, I would say worry first about getting in because to be honest, that is the hard part. Once you're in, you will get through the program, so in reality I don't think you really have to do anything until you arrive on campus!

[Guest marcinTO]

I really appreciate your reply, thanks. After reading that so many nurses, chiropractors, physiotherapists, etc, were applying, I figured I'd be way behind the curve - thanks for the reassurance.

 

My follow-ups are:

 

I know Mac utilizes the 'case method' in teaching, and also gets students in the hospitals in year 1. Do any other schools in Canada use this method? Why do applicants often choose Mac and Ottawa as competition?

 

And on the financial side, after year two, is your salary from your clerkship enough to cover both tuition and living costs in Hamilton? Are most clerkships in Hamilton's hospital or are they available in Toronto? Do you still attend classes in year 3 at all?

 

Lastly, if I wanted to become a general surgeon or a trauma surgeon, what would be the path and commitment I would be accepting?

 

Thanks again, I REALLY appreciate the advice,

Marc

[Guest peachy]

Why do applicants often choose Mac and Ottawa as competition?

Because they are the two schools that don't require MCATs.

[Guest macMDstudent]

I think it is pretty much standard now in all med schools to get first year students some clinical exposure.

 

As far as the clerkship stipend goes, that is long gone. It used to be clerks got a small salary that would just about cover tuition, but I think Mike Harris got rid of that (or was it Bob Rae?). I don't remember how long ago that was now, but just expect to pay your tuition through all 3 years of the program and not make any money until you're a resident.

 

Nearly all of McMaster's clerkship rotations are in Hamilton hospitals. Some parts of it can be done in surrounding smaller communities or in Thunder Bay and northwestern Ontario. The Toronto teaching hospitals are for U of T students. Some electives may be arranged at U of T but not the core elements of clerkship.

 

At Mac, every clerkship rotation has learning days or rounds in the morning. There is definitely academics going on throughut clerkship, including an exam at the end of each rotation. Post clerkship there is what is called Unit 6 which is (from what I understand) review sessions for board exams as well as talks on developing a greater understanding of the Canadian health care system, jurisprudence and practical issues related to the practice of medicine.

 

General surgery is 5 years of residency, I'm not sure if any additional training is required to be a trauma surgeon. It's a long haul, any way you look at it though, considering you are looking at 3 + 5 = 8 years to get there.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Virtually all, if not all Canadian med schools have some early clinical exposure (I think McGill saves up their clinical skills for the second half of Med 2, but maybe they still see patients prior to that?), and the same can be said about problem-Based Learning, aka Case-based learning. The differences come in the degree that PBL is employed (some schools rely on it to a very large degree, and others include a significant component of lectures to complement the PBL).

 

As far as general surgery (by the way, it's really tough to know until you've done the rotation, and a lot of people change their minds after seeing how hard the general surgeons work on a daily basis) goes, it's a five year residency in most cities (Vancouver is six years I think), and trauma is an additional fellowship after that (1-2 years?).

 

That's not to say that a general surgeon can't also handle trauma, but if you really want to get good at things like penetrating gunshot trauma, you'd probably have to head to a US city for that type of experience.

 

Ian

[Guest macMDstudent]

I was thinking about this since my last post. For me, not having to write the MCAT was a bonus, definitely considering all the courses it is based on I had taken 15 years ago.

 

However, the main reason I only applied to Mac was the program itself. As a mature student, I did not want to be in a didactic program and have to sit in lectures all the time, and cram for exams. I wanted the PBL. I wanted more freedom to structure the program myself. I did not want to have to repeat a number of courses I had taken previously that are part of the medical curriculum in a didactic system. I wanted to finish in 3 years instead of 4. Plus, I could attend the school without moving my young family or living away from them!

 

For me, it was not the application process that I was concerned about as the reason to choose Mac, it was the program that was best suited for me. I recognize it may not be for everyone though, and each person has to decide what they are after in their education.

[Guest MDWannabe]

Hi Marc,

 

Essentially, with the above three aspects, you are talking about me. Except my last science goes further back than that, and I haven't experienced a closed book exam in, well, in too long to remember. Yet I, and some others (but frankly not a lot of others) like me are currently in the Mac program.

 

I reiterate what the wise macMDstudent said above: you can do this without the sciences, or even with a weak memory. It just makes it more of a challenge! Your memory is probably stronger than you think - you just haven't had to apply that skill in MBA school (if your school was anything like mine).

 

I think, in retrospect, Tortora would be a great book to review, just to give you a feel for the anatomy/physiology side, and how it all fits together (a big weak point in us non-science types). It's not absolutely essential by any stretch, but it would certainly help, in my view. I do know some others that insist that most of us are pretty much fully caught-up by the end of first year.

 

Covering the full science spectrum is probably an unproductive pursuit at this point unless you want to hedge your bets by applying to other programs too. This is not necessarily a small point, given the numbers game involved here.

 

As to your GPA, you should be aware that your MBA GPA is unfortunately not relevant. All master's degrees are entered as one year (no matter how long they take to finish), and are entered at the average of the applicant pool (traditionally in the 3.5-3.6 range). They will however count any undergraduate course you have ever taken, and average it out with the result of your imputed 1 year calculation for your MBA.

 

I would say at this point, though, that you should realize that while McMaster could easily be interested in your application, you will have to make a pretty good case as to why you avoided the sciences up to now, and why it took you so long to get to your decision to apply. You can't assume that you are a shoo-in simply BECAUSE you have an interesting background.

 

Best of luck!

[Guest j282]

I have a few friends who have completed MBA or undergrad business degress that went onto medschool. Interestingly they are not at Mac but at other schools because they weren't granted interviews at Mac. I'm in no way saying that you wont land an interview there but there are a few things you can do to cover your basis. While you are taking that General Chem, Bio, add to your list Physics and Organic chem. This way you will have all that you need to write the MCAT and be eligible for all schools including Ottawa etc. It will probably look favourably to Mac as you will obviously appear serious about this career move.

 

What was your undergrad in? What type of career did you have pre MBA and post MBA? I'm asking because often times these can strengthen your application.

Out of curiosity how old are you? Don't feel disadvantaged by age but do have a good reason as to why you have waited to apply.

 

MDwannabe how did you answer the question, why did you wait this long to apply. You have an MBA/llb, did you have sciences before? I know I was asked that question, and I blurted out some really silly answer.

 

Good Luck Marc.

[Guest MDWannabe]

What some people will do to get out of studying for the CRE!!

 

I'm not sure my particular story will be all that helpful, since I think, like everyone's, it's unique. It just has to make sense. In my particular case, I think anyone who was listening could sense my interest in medicine, which I could trace back at least 17 years. The evidence was there based on my actions. On top of that, I was engaged in a (financially) successful career, so I think the adcom understood the sacrifice I was making to follow this path. This decision was really against all common sense then applying in my life, except for the fact that it was really clear (at least to me) that medicine was where I was meant to be. This assertion was backed up by tangible life experiences along the way, and by the volunteer activities I had pursued over the years.

 

There is a feeling out there that if your background is eclectic/interesting/different than the norm, you are a shoo-in at Mac because it is a haven for such people. While there is some small element of truth to this assertion, you still need to make sense of your application. And the typical MBA I went to school with would not fit in well in this program. There is a different temperment here; and different motivations apply. Not better, just different.

[Guest marcinTO]

At present I am 29. I am a few credits shy of completing a BSC in COMP SCI with a mediocre GPA (about 70%).

 

For the last 8 years I've owned my own IT consulting business, which was a career choice made primarily by a lack of financial support during my first run at university.

 

I decided to do my MBA part-time, which will complete in April 2004, and I anticipate a GPA of 3.9-4.0 (U of T).

 

I don't have a particular angle per se for the med school interview; my honest response if asked today would be that it has always been my true passion ever since I was a child. I had to leave school to support myself, and it took until now for me to accumulate the funds and the GPA. I can devote the time and effort, and am 100% committed to succeeding.

 

Getting my MBA is really just a stepping-stone for me, which (a) improves my GPA ( proves to me that I can still succeed in academia © and, consequently has reinforced to me that business is not the career I want.

 

Do you have any further tips to give me an edge (or at least a fighting chance)? I know volunteering is useful but I don't really have the time (unless you know something good that is part-time weekends or something). I try to exercise or play sports when I have the free time, but between work, school, family, and science courses, I am pretty much full. Plus, with the SARS scare these days volunteering should have danger pay - then again that may demonstrate a commitment to the profession??

 

I would like to have a back-up in the very disheartening event Mac rejects me, but I don't think any other program appeals as much.

[Guest MDWannabe]

Hi Marc,

 

As I mentioned, the MBA will in fact do very little to raise your GPA, I'm sorry to say (see my last post). It will give you the equivalent of 1 year at about 3.55 (given past years' experience). In absence of relevant volunteer work, it is certainly open to show you are the right kind of person based on your paid work or the activities you do at home. Some on the adcom have in the past been swayed by those who helped a seriously ill neighbour, for example. Or maybe your work activities involve an analogous service to the community.

 

Be careful about saying you don't have enough time to help anyone out. Many adcom reviewers will wonder how you will cut it in an equally demanding job when you are out there practicing medicine. Managing to do it all is one of the things they are looking for; but your MBA-taught process management skills should help. I personally don't think that I ever worked harder than I did in my first year of MBA school at Western. It was a 6.5 day/week all encompassing affair!

 

As I've said above, you have the opportunity to really impress the adcom with your different background, but being different means that people who review your application will either be really impressed or really turned off (vs just like everyone else in the pool, but maybe just a bit better). In this scenario, luck plays an even bigger role than it does for the standard science student, because you need to run into the type of person that will be open to such a different application. There are some of those at Mac, but clearly not everyone is so oriented that way.

 

The other thing I want to reiterate. Make sure you can really communicate that passion you were talking about with concrete examples. Try explaining to a critical friend in 7 lines why you want to be a doctor, and why you would not be equally satisfied in some analogous profession, and see what they say!

 

Hope this helps a bit. Get back to me on this site if you actually do wind up setting up an application over the coming months.

[Guest me maniac]

Marc,

 

Hope you don't mind me muddling things up, but instead of reading Tortora, why don't you finish off you BSc in Comp by doing a few science courses? Take the bio or the organic and then...... I know you won't like this but.... take the MCAT. Calgary offers a similar program to Mac (3 years, fewer lectures than the "traditional" schools, and more PBL). By riding on the hope that you may get into MAC because of the kind of people/life experience they attract, you are reducing your realistic chances of getting into medical school. Don't limit yourself on where YOU think you may get in, but broaden your range by applying to more than one school.

 

Just my two bits.

 

me

[Guest marcinTO]

I'm not entirely opposed to the MCAT, but after glancing at a prep book I've come to realize that I'm over a year away from being able to score well on it.

 

The other concern I face is that my wife must remain in Toronto, so the further I am, the more difficult life will be.

 

How are the other Ontario schools comparitively? Does Ottawa have a method like Mac? Is U of T any good?

 

I know I shouldn't put all my eggs in one basket, but no other program sounds nearly as good, while being situated so close.

[Guest me maniac]

Marc,

 

I was in a similar boat to yours, at least in terms of family. I am 37 (!) and have two little kids and a husband with a business. I thought it was best for all if my husband could keep his business (ie steady income) so I only applied to UBC last year (it's about a 3 hour drive from where I currently live). I was planning on commuting on weekends. Of course, as luck would have it, I didn't get into THE ONE SCHOOL THAT I APPLIED TO. :\ The heartbreak was devastating, especially after working hard in undergrad for 5 years. This year, I also interviewed at Calgary and am on their OOP waitlist. Oh, I also got into UBC, but I really don't care too much for their program (sorry UBC'ers). I really want to go to Calgary for their program, even though it is counter-intuitive to what my original thoughts were on moving long distance. Go figure.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say (in a very round about way!) is that if meds is what you want to do - then do it! Just keep in mind what is best FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY, but do not limit your chance at the lottery by only buying one ticket (because sometimes, the admissions game is a numbers game too). There exists a fine balance between the two. What that balance is, only you and your spouse can figure out.

 

I wish you nothing but the best as you determine which path is the right one for you.

 

me

[Guest Mens Rea]

Me Maniac:

 

May I ask what your background is in (ie prior career etc.)

 

Did you find age a factor in the admissions decisions? What kinds of extra cirricular stuff did you participate in? Did you do your undergrad late? I heard that UofC only needs 2 years of undergrad but I'm not sure about that. In any case good luck to you, congratulations on your acceptance. Way to go

 

Marc, I apologize for coming into your post. Sorry buddy, all I can say to you is that I am in a very similar situation (30, no science, also have an MBA) so it should be interesting on how things turn out for us. Good luck to you, if you have any comments or advice for me, please feel free to post to me

 

Take Care All

Mike

[Guest me maniac]

Mike,

 

I started my BSc at the ripe old age of 31. Took me 5 years to do it, though. My first son was 1 1/2 years old. I had my second son during second year. I have been working as a lab technologist for the past 10 years. I have always been interested in the sciences, but the hospital lab left me professionally unsatisfied. I also realized that there was a whole lot about the medical field that I wanted to know more about.

 

My age was not a factor to me. The only ones that had a "problem" with my age were"

 

1) my parents (why do you want to quit a well-paying job to be a student again? - what about your kids?)

 

2) the younger kids at school (only at first, though. once they got to know me, they were amazed that I could work at a job all night and then go to school all day.... after a while, they just thought I was nuts! I did make several life-long friends in undergrad, some of them in the over-30 crowd (yes, there was more than one of us!), some inthe early 20 crowd.) After they realized that I was just as fun as any 20 year old, they got over the age thing pretty fast.)

 

 

Age was a factor in the admissions process, but not in the way that you might think. I actually think it helped my application because it set me apart from the crowd (and that is the main point of the admissions process, as far as I'm concerned.) Only I felt like I had to defend my age. One person on the adcom actually told me that their particular school had been very impressed with the "older" students... they were very driven (perhaps because they had to sacrifice more to go school?) and they tended to do very well in med school. There are many more over-30 people applying to med school these days than in years past (not as many as the younger applicants, but still more than what you'd think). I was actually surprised at this number - mostly from "hearing" on this website, not from actually meeting people at the interviewing sessions.) I think it speaks volumes that you have tried other things, but want some sort of satisfaction out of your career (and life) and are willing to give up a secure career to get it.

 

My ec's are quite varied. I sat on the executive committee for my professional organization for over 7 years, volunteered at my son's preschool and elementary school, coached my son's soccer team for three years, collected blood samples from old men at free PSA clinics, volunteered at the CBS (Canadian Blood Services, formerly Red Cross), donated blood at CBS, did fund raising for our hospital's equipment purchases, did fundraising for bursaries through my cultural organization, and some other odd and end things. Not all of your volunteer stuff has to be in the medical field. The adcom wants to know how you've given to the community you live in. You will be surprised at the kinds of opportunities that are out there (like organizing Xmas parties and golf tournaments for your employer. I even put down things like looking after my 70 year old mom after she had her stroke - which was related to medicine, but from the other end). You just have to look. I had lots of ec's, but certainly not all of them were done during undergrad.

 

The thing you have to remember about the minimums quoted at any medical school (ie only 2 year undergrad before applying at Calgary) is that the other applicants out there give you a good run for your money. Many of the younger ones have travelled extensively during their summers off, while you've had to work to feed the kids. They are into all kinds of out-door adventures and sports, while I can't even ski anymore since I broke my leg 7 years ago!. They might not have ever had a paying job, but their ec's look incredible on paper (ie volunteering at a medical clinic in a third world country, while you work and toil to pay the bills (what?! take a month off from work to go volunteer overseas?! who's going to look after the kids??!). Competiion from the older crowd is also stiff. Many have done Ph.d's or MBA's like yourself. My lowly med lab diploma doesn't even rate next to those. So, even though med schools have those minimums, this, in no way, guarantees you an interview. In most cases (obviously, there are exceptions), you have to greatly surpass those minimums (I have a 3.93 GPA and didn't get into UBC last year). Also keep in mind that as an out of province applicant, your chances for even interviewing are pretty tough (this year, Calgary had 800 OOP applicants, and they interviewed about 80 - you're talking the top ten percent! :eek ). I consider myself lucky just to get to the interview stage!

 

Well, I think I've answered most of your questions. If you'd like to talk more, you (or Marc) can email me at manakmuhr@shaw.ca.

 

Good luck in your quest and remember, if you really want to do meds - you will find a way to do it! I am living proof! :b

 

me

 

Edited to say "whew! I didn't realized I was so long winded! It must be because it's 0400 and I haven't had a single disruption from the kids, the phone, the dog...." Sorry about that!

[Guest marcinTO]

Me,

 

Are you applying for the 04 intake, and is this your first year trying? The more I hear about the backgrounds of successful and unsuccessful candidates, the more encouraged or disencouraged I'll be to do all the science courses and write the MCAT.

 

What are your strong points for entry?

 

Marc