Toronto vs Queens vs Ottawa

[Cheezewhiz]

...................

[Birdy]

I can't comment on curricula as I am only familiar with what is on their websites, and I am sure you have read that.

 

I can say, though, that I highly recommend Ottawa as a place to live. Spent a decade there, and I'm really hoping I eventually get into UofO med because I'd really like to go back. OCTranspo is very thorough, downtown has a huge number of things to do, there are a variety of places you could live while still having relatively easy access to the hospitals. CHEO really is a wonderful hospital (spent a lot of time there as a patient and parent of a patient, can't speak to the clinical aspects.) Just overall, Ottawa really is a wonderful city to live in.

[future_doc]

My gut is Ottawa or Queen's. Personally, I would choose Ottawa but all are great choices and you cannot go wrong with any of these.

[thatonekid]

For the "why Queen's?" argument, I'd refer to this post:

 

Hey MrsSnrub,

 

I was literally talking about writing one of these last night. We're just in exam study mode so I'll write up a comprehensive one at some point in the next couple weeks, but I'll give a Coles' notes version for now.

 

But I should say that all Canadian med schools are great. In any case you're getting a good education, so these things below should be viewed as things that set Queen's apart, but don't necessarily make Queen's better or worse than other schools. The key is just to pick a school that best fits your interests and expectations. Also, some of these things other schools also have (for instance, NOSM has relatively new facilities as well as Queen's), so consider the whole package.

 

Reasons to Come to Queen's:

1) The facilities. They're top-notch. Lots of study space and multimedia in use. Nice to have a new sim lab and new equipment in it.

 

2) The class. 100 people is kind of a perfect size - almost everyone fits in somewhere. You're in the same room with the same people every day, you make some really tight relationships. Someone in our class found out her boyfriend got into Queen's meds and everyone started clapping for her. People in our class make cupcakes for others' birthdays. If it's nice out, a bunch of us play frisbee in the park beside the meds building during breaks between classes.

 

3) Proximity of everything. For probably 90% of our class, everything is within a 15 minute walk (class, three teaching hospitals, two big grocery stores, shopping, frozen yogurt, alcohol, etc). If you are particularly efficient you could easily get it all within a 10 minute walk.

 

4) The curriculum. Queen's had a pretty brutal reputation for its curriculum in the early 2000's. As a result they've completely revised the curriculum. The 2016s will be the third year with it. As a 2015, I can tell you that the curriculum is solid, and they take feedback seriously so it'll be even better next year. There is a great balance between lectures, small groupwork and "other" learning opportunities (such as having patients come in to discuss their conditions, or having lectures on the "art" of medicine). Other schools have a huge emphasis on SGL or lectures, Queen's is very balanced. Note that this might not be your style (there are certainly people who prefer all lectures or all problem-based learning).

 

5) Kingston. Probably this is the reason most people choose NOT to come to Queen's. But virtually everyone is pleasantly surprised by the town. There is a ton of things to do, from skating in the rinks that are set up all over the place in the winter (when there IS a winter), to a ton of great restaurants, to a huge number of cultural events sponsored by the town and the Queen's student body at large. Additionally, it's a short drive to Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal, so people do trips out for sports games, concerts, to go home to see family, whatever.

 

6) Huge amounts of things to do at Queen's. Something like a quarter of each class gets involved in student government. Over half the class participates in intramural sports. There are over 200 clubs at Queen's, and dozens of medicine-specific clubs (have an interest in emergency medicine? there's an interest group for that). Of course you can choose to do nothing and just chill, that's cool too.

 

7) Clinical exposure. Queen's appears to be more focused on clinical stuff than many schools. In first year, you will learn how to take a complete history and perform every aspect of a physical exam (I think the only thing we "missed" was rectal exams; we did however learn how to perform pelvic exams). Starting in September you will get opportunities to do observerships in the family medicine after hours clinic and put those skills to use.

 

8) Low faculty/student ratio and faculty who are super keen on teaching. Morale among faculty appears to be very high. They're always excited to have students come into clinic with them. By the end of first year, lots of people have done piles of observerships. I've done something like 30 across nearly 15 clinical specialties. Definitely gives me a better idea of what I want in a career.

 

Anyway there are lots more, but this is already like twice as long as I wanted it to be... If you have specific questions about stuff just ask!

[Birdy]

Thanks for the posts so far guys! I should note that I'm from Ottawa and did my undergrad here too. Part of me thinks a change of scenery would be nice, but at the same time I really am liking Ottawa's program the best of the 3 at the moment.

 

Guess my post was unnecessary then, lol.

[holiday1001]

Guess my post was unnecessary then, lol.

you really have a scale here, of small university town to middle-size then to biggest in Canada

[Ozgrad]

The reason why Queen's doesn't have anything on their website about their curriculum is that they are midway through changing it. My panel explained it to me - it's something like the 3rd and 4th years are on the old curriculum, and the 1st and 2nd years are on the new one. Once they are happy with the new curriculum, it will go on their website...just so you don't think Queen's is hiding the information for some weird reason (or that you simply just can't find it)

[A-Stark]

Well, for what it's worth, my dad went to UofT, interned at Queen's, then did his residency at UofT, and to this day says that he wished he'd gone to Queen's for med school and residency.

[ABee]

I am a current UOttawa student so I might be a bit biased but...

 

I'm sure you'll be happy at either of the 3 places quite honestly.

My 2 cents on Ottawa:

1) Curriculum: Excellent for the most part. Like with any other school you'll have things you'll like less and some you'll like more but at the end of the day its extremely well rounded. We do have the afternoons off so you can do lots of electives to at least rule out some specialties (and to remind you why you chose medicine), we have CBL (sometimes feels like a private tutoring session from the doctor/tutor (which is often helpful)) and lectures which are usually good. Its also relatively large so there are lots of different specialists teaching us what they are good at. In clerkship we do all our mandatory rotations 1st (I guess it can be both a good thing and not depending on each person- but it probably does prepare you better for your electives)...we also have a lot of fun!

 

2) City: depending where you're from you'll probably think different things of it. Coming from Toronto I was still pleasantly surprised. Its big enough that there are places to go out to, but its definitely more "outdoorsy". Bus system is quite decent and the bus pass is included in out tuition.

[thatonekid]

Thanks for the posts so far guys! I should note that I'm from Ottawa and did my undergrad here too. Part of me thinks a change of scenery would be nice, but at the same time I really am liking Ottawa's program the best of the 3 at the moment.

Can I ask what you like best about Ottawa's program (I'm just curious because it's similar in some aspects to Queen's)

 

Well, for what it's worth, my dad went to UofT, interned at Queen's, then did his residency at UofT, and to this day says that he wished he'd gone to Queen's for med school and residency.

I know a lot of current residents who have come to Queen's from other schools who say the same thing!

[battleford]

One other thing to consider is research opportunities and residency matching. Toronto is a world class institution (no knock on Ottawa or Queen's, but they are not on the same level).

Anyone remotely interested in any of the more competitive specialties should consider Toronto for the research opportunities they would get.

[thatonekid]

I like the balance of CBL and lectures, as well as the whole ending at 1230 thing. My main drawback for Queens is the city rather than the program, although I'm finding it tough to actually get much info on the program other than what's been posted here.

Yeah, the Queen's website isn't really good for that kind of thing. Feel free to ask any specific questions that you (or anyone else) have.

[kc752]

My apologies for highjacking this thread, but I was wondering if anyone could comment on Toronto vs. Western?

 

I feel so fortunate to have been accepted to 5 ON Med Schools (I didn't apply to NOSM), and I think that I have narrowed it down to Toronto and Western (with Ottawa close behind). I loved the facilities and spirit at Western, and the curriculum sounds great...But I also really liked a lot of aspects about UofT including the research opportunities and location (I'm originally from Toronto, and love the city). Any advice/thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!! Thank you

[battleford]

My apologies for highjacking this thread, but I was wondering if anyone could comment on Toronto vs. Western?

 

I feel so fortunate to have been accepted to 5 ON Med Schools (I didn't apply to NOSM), and I think that I have narrowed it down to Toronto and Western (with Ottawa close behind). I loved the facilities and spirit at Western, and the curriculum sounds great...But I also really liked a lot of aspects about UofT including the research opportunities and location (I'm originally from Toronto, and love the city). Any advice/thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!! Thank you

 

As I look towards residency matching, I suggest you take that into consideration as well. While you can theoretically match anywhere in the country from any medical school, every school has a home-school bias. So if you have envision yourself doing reisdency in a particular city, it would be advantageous to do medical school there (but still not a sure thing)

[Davjw]

My apologies for highjacking this thread, but I was wondering if anyone could comment on Toronto vs. Western?

 

I feel so fortunate to have been accepted to 5 ON Med Schools (I didn't apply to NOSM), and I think that I have narrowed it down to Toronto and Western (with Ottawa close behind). I loved the facilities and spirit at Western, and the curriculum sounds great...But I also really liked a lot of aspects about UofT including the research opportunities and location (I'm originally from Toronto, and love the city). Any advice/thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!! Thank you

 

I have the same decision to make, so I'd be interested to hear anybody's input on the matter as well. I feel pretty good about this though, two excellent schools. I feel like I'll be making a good decision either way.

[aani]

I don't mean to introduce another topic to this thread, but I'm struggling to make my decision between Ottawa and Mac. Any advice? I would really appreciate it

[kc752]

As I look towards residency matching, I suggest you take that into consideration as well. While you can theoretically match anywhere in the country from any medical school, every school has a home-school bias. So if you have envision yourself doing reisdency in a particular city, it would be advantageous to do medical school there (but still not a sure thing)

 

That's a really great point! I will definitely take that into consideration.

[future_doc]

I don't mean to introduce another topic to this thread, but I'm struggling to make my decision between Ottawa and Mac. Any advice? I would really appreciate it

 

Ottawa gives you an extra year to decide for CaRMS.

[NLengr]

Toronto and Mac are the programs that will be recognized internationally, particularly if you want to do global health. i hate to say it, but even the bottom students from U of T are known to have their stuff down for residency programs. And if you ever want to do research or academic medicine, Toronto is the place to be.

 

No, no they aren't. They are the same, on average, as clerks from every other school in the country. They have no special advantage except in their own minds.

[thatonekid]

No, no they aren't. They are the same, on average, as clerks from every other school in the country. They have no special advantage except in their own minds.

+1

 

Every school prepared their students for residency. Some schools may have some "name" advantages, but they are not as extreme as people make them out to be.

[NLengr]

+1

 

Every school prepared their students for residency. Some schools may have some "name" advantages, but they are not as extreme as people make them out to be.

 

Even than, a name advantage is probably only existing in the us. Canada has none since everyone knows every school

[thatonekid]

Even than, a name advantage is probably only existing in the us. Canada has none since everyone knows every school

True. But the poster did say "internationally", so there may be something. But it's not something I would choose a med school over.

[DanInVan]

They have no special advantage except in their own minds.

 

Thanks for speaking for us.

[Med0123]

Originally Posted by aani

I don't mean to introduce another topic to this thread, but I'm struggling to make my decision between Ottawa and Mac. Any advice? I would really appreciate it

 

Statistics from CaRMS match 2012 http://www.carms.ca/eng/operations_R1reports_12_e.shtml

 

% of applicants matched to 1st choice discipline in 2012 match, 1st iteration (table 11):

 

McMaster: 88.3%

Ottawa: 95.2% (3rd in the country, MUN being 1st with 96.2% and UWO 2nd with 95.8%)

Canada: 90.8%

 

% of applicants matched to 1st choice rank list in 2012 match, 1st iteration (table 10):

 

McMaster: 50.3%

Ottawa: 60.6%

Canada: 61.0%

 

If you look at these raw numbers, it looks like Ottawa training gives you a better chance to reach the speciality you desire, but not necessarily at the location you desire the most.

 

HOWEVER, way more medical students from UofO choose FM as their 1st choice (40.6% vs 28.6%, table 27), therefore positively affecting the % of applicants matched to their 1st choice discipline and rank list.

 

CaRMS match statistics may be useful to help you choose a medical school if you are willing to move and establish yourself across the country, but you need to be careful interpreting these data.

[A-Stark]

I don't go to Toronto, but it's pretty evident their training is more rigorous. I mean, they continuously do better on specialty matches than Ottawa. Fact, not something only in their heads.

 

Not sure what's more "rigorous" about all-day lectures, particularly compared to PBL/CBL programs where students are expected to go through an entire case and do most if not all of the supplementary readings prior to coming to tutorial.

 

Honestly I haven't met many UofT students, but at least one I met on elective was bizarrely neurotic and beat herself up for not knowing the dose of Flagyl for standard pre-op prophylaxis. Does that mean anything? Not really...

 

Your claim, by the way, is directly contradicted by this year's match results. At Ottawa, 95.2% matched to their first choice discipline, but "only" 90.6% at UofT. The numbers for first choice program were 60.6% and 59.6%, respectively, which means that Ottawa still had a slight edge.

 

So... yeah.