Australian School Chances Of Staying After Graduation?

[blue_panda]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have a friend who recently got accepted into one of the Austrailian Schools and wants to attend. From what I've read on these forums, matching into Australian internship/residency is extremely difficult as an international student. I tried to convince her that going to Australia was not in her best interest especially seeing as how her MCAT and GPA would be high enough to get into a number US medical schools but she wouldn't listen. She seems to believe, very strongly, that she would have no problems matching into residency in Australia as long as she acquires citizenship or permanent resident status by graduation. My question is: If you are an international studying in Australia and somehow managed to get PR or citizenship status, would you be matching with the native graduates and be guranteed an internship/residency spot during matching?

 

Thanks.

[JohnGrisham]

Should always try for the US first if they have the stats, before anywhere else, unless there are special considerations (like citizenship in said foreign countries etc).

[Edict]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have a friend who recently got accepted into one of the Austrailian Schools and wants to attend. From what I've read on these forums, matching into Australian internship/residency is extremely difficult as an international student. I tried to convince her that going to Australia was not in her best interest especially seeing as how her MCAT and GPA would be high enough to get into a number US medical schools but she wouldn't listen. She seems to believe, very strongly, that she would have no problems matching into residency in Australia as long as she acquires citizenship or permanent resident status by graduation. My question is: If you are an international studying in Australia and somehow managed to get PR or citizenship status, would you be matching with the native graduates and be guranteed an internship/residency spot during matching?

 

Thanks.

 

I tried to find the post but I read somewhere that they can even kick you out of the program in Australia for getting citizenship, but i'm not 100% sure on this. I know its not like this anywhere else in the world though. 

[JohnGrisham]

^that. You have to enter on the correct citizenship status, as they have set quotas and streams. Changing part way can cause problems. Figure it out beforehand. On one hand as non citizen its easier to get in, but more expensive. As citizen its harder to get in but cheaper, and much better for matching. YMMV do research first.

[uoit101]

Contact Oztrekk. For Dentistry, i was told that if you change your status AFTER being enrolled, you're kicked out of the program and you'll reapply next year as a Domestic applicant after taking the GAMSAT etc. I'm assuming the same holds true for Medicine. I'd definitely do more research before doing this. 

[McMarauder]

regarding resident status change:  in my dental school class, there have been students who obtained australian PR partway through the program, and they were able to stay, but pay the local fees instead.  not sure how relevant that is for medicine.

[bangsar]

my research shows you can be kicked out of medical school if you apply for PR during your studies as only few seats are allocated for International students and the standard is lower for international students entry.  As far as my research and going and meeting school reps , even though they say internship is not guaranteed , no one has been denied internship at least from Canada to date.

[uoit101]

Look into the 10 year moratorium rule as well.

The 10 year moratorium is based on your residency status at the time of enrollment, regardless of whether or not you obtain PR during med school or not. This might not be that big of a deal, but definitely something else to consider. 

[steinmaster]

Hi, I'm originally from Canada and in my 4th year of medicine at UQ and I can tell you that as a medical student, you will not receive your PR nor citizenship at any time during medical school in Australia unless you marry an Australian (there are other ways to achieve PR and citizenship, but you would have to be on a different visa, which is not applicable if you are studying here). If you match in Australia after completion of medical school, you can then apply for PR, and then citizenship, but not beforehand. I noted that someone said no Canadian has yet been denied internship in Australia - this is no longer valid. I know several students who have successfully completed medical school (I should probably call them doctors now) and they did not match in Canada nor Australia and they now have massive loans and no job. The main problem for international students is that they have increased the number of seats for Australians several years ago (which is entirely in their right) and now there are not enough internship positions for everyone. They have introduced the CMI program (Commonwealth Medical Internship), but there are many restrictions and not everyone is successful in gaining an internship this way.

 

Looking back on my situation, I'm not convinced coming to Australia to study medicine was in my best interest. I find I'm paying exorbitant tuition and receiving sub-standard training due to the large mass of students - clinicians just don't have enough time for each student. For example, on completion of my 3rd year of medicine I returned to Canada for an optional 2-week 'observership' in BC and was asked to cannulate a patient who came into emergency with chest pain... I had to tell them that I had never cannulated a patient before and the doctors could not believe it... a soon-to-be 4th year med student who had never cannulated a patient before?! - I was so embarrassed. This is a basic skill Canadian medical students learn in 1st year and this lack of training in Australia makes it harder for Australian taught students to receive residency positions in Canada. 

 

Anyone thinking of coming to Australia to study medicine needs to take a step back and really consider their options. I'm not saying don't do it, but realise that you're paying a lot of money with absolutely no guarantee of having a job at the end of it. Many people (including myself in earlier days) are so focused on getting into medical school and becoming a doctor because it's honorable, heroic, 'the best job ever' and to be honest, that's a load of BS. It's a good job, but so are many other jobs - it's what you make of it. And if you put half the energy into any other interest as you put into medicine, you will most certainly be successful. 

 

You can pass this information on to your friend - I hope it helps.

[B3.572A]

Hi, I'm originally from Canada and in my 4th year of medicine at UQ and I can tell you that as a medical student, you will not receive your PR nor citizenship at any time during medical school in Australia unless you marry an Australian (there are other ways to achieve PR and citizenship, but you would have to be on a different visa, which is not applicable if you are studying here). If you match in Australia after completion of medical school, you can then apply for PR, and then citizenship, but not beforehand. I noted that someone said no Canadian has yet been denied internship in Australia - this is no longer valid. I know several students who have successfully completed medical school (I should probably call them doctors now) and they did not match in Canada nor Australia and they now have massive loans and no job. The main problem for international students is that they have increased the number of seats for Australians several years ago (which is entirely in their right) and now there are not enough internship positions for everyone. They have introduced the CMI program (Commonwealth Medical Internship), but there are many restrictions and not everyone is successful in gaining an internship this way.

 

Looking back on my situation, I'm not convinced coming to Australia to study medicine was in my best interest. I find I'm paying exorbitant tuition and receiving sub-standard training due to the large mass of students - clinicians just don't have enough time for each student. For example, on completion of my 3rd year of medicine I returned to Canada for an optional 2-week 'observership' in BC and was asked to cannulate a patient who came into emergency with chest pain... I had to tell them that I had never cannulated a patient before and the doctors could not believe it... a soon-to-be 4th year med student who had never cannulated a patient before?! - I was so embarrassed. This is a basic skill Canadian medical students learn in 1st year and this lack of training in Australia makes it harder for Australian taught students to receive residency positions in Canada. 

 

Anyone thinking of coming to Australia to study medicine needs to take a step back and really consider their options. I'm not saying don't do it, but realise that you're paying a lot of money with absolutely no guarantee of having a job at the end of it. Many people (including myself in earlier days) are so focused on getting into medical school and becoming a doctor because it's honorable, heroic, 'the best job ever' and to be honest, that's a load of BS. It's a good job, but so are many other jobs - it's what you make of it. And if you put half the energy into any other interest as you put into medicine, you will most certainly be successful. 

 

You can pass this information on to your friend - I hope it helps.

 

Thanks for sharing. I wish you the best of luck in the match!

[guy30]

Hi, I'm originally from Canada and in my 4th year of medicine at UQ and I can tell you that as a medical student, you will not receive your PR nor citizenship at any time during medical school in Australia unless you marry an Australian (there are other ways to achieve PR and citizenship, but you would have to be on a different visa, which is not applicable if you are studying here). If you match in Australia after completion of medical school, you can then apply for PR, and then citizenship, but not beforehand. I noted that someone said no Canadian has yet been denied internship in Australia - this is no longer valid. I know several students who have successfully completed medical school (I should probably call them doctors now) and they did not match in Canada nor Australia and they now have massive loans and no job. The main problem for international students is that they have increased the number of seats for Australians several years ago (which is entirely in their right) and now there are not enough internship positions for everyone. They have introduced the CMI program (Commonwealth Medical Internship), but there are many restrictions and not everyone is successful in gaining an internship this way.

 

Looking back on my situation, I'm not convinced coming to Australia to study medicine was in my best interest. I find I'm paying exorbitant tuition and receiving sub-standard training due to the large mass of students - clinicians just don't have enough time for each student. For example, on completion of my 3rd year of medicine I returned to Canada for an optional 2-week 'observership' in BC and was asked to cannulate a patient who came into emergency with chest pain... I had to tell them that I had never cannulated a patient before and the doctors could not believe it... a soon-to-be 4th year med student who had never cannulated a patient before?! - I was so embarrassed. This is a basic skill Canadian medical students learn in 1st year and this lack of training in Australia makes it harder for Australian taught students to receive residency positions in Canada. 

 

Anyone thinking of coming to Australia to study medicine needs to take a step back and really consider their options. I'm not saying don't do it, but realise that you're paying a lot of money with absolutely no guarantee of having a job at the end of it. Many people (including myself in earlier days) are so focused on getting into medical school and becoming a doctor because it's honorable, heroic, 'the best job ever' and to be honest, that's a load of BS. It's a good job, but so are many other jobs - it's what you make of it. And if you put half the energy into any other interest as you put into medicine, you will most certainly be successful. 

 

You can pass this information on to your friend - I hope it helps.

 

I have to say that your experiences with sub-standard training are probably more specific for the University of Queensland as an institution, which has increased student numbers to unimaginable numbers over the last ten years and has just completely destroyed it's reputation as a medical school by ballooning class sizes and operating like a cash cow IMO.  For example, at UQ, there are so many international students that I think there are more international students than domestic students, and each class year intake is in the 500-600 student range now if I'm not mistaken!  Also, the rolling admissions process lowers the standard of students attending UQ.  At most other Australian medical schools, international students make up only a small part of the class size (about 10% of the class size at Melbourne).

 

I'm from the University of Melbourne (dual citizen) and I have to say the teaching in Melbourne is at a decently high standard with some pretty world-class hospitals we're learning in.  I've also found the cohort standard of international students at Melbourne to be decently high with the majority of the Canadian students I know having done a Master's/PhD.  I've done a few electives in Canada between 2nd and 3rd year and at least from my experiences, I've found that there are some differences between Canadian and Australian medical teaching, but neither necessarily makes one better than the other.  

 

Medical students in Canada seem to be given more responsibility and are integrated more into the team earlier on (such as being given a pager, expected to take the history on admission etc.), but I found the history taking and physical examination skills to be at a higher level in Australia (Melbourne), particularly since we're tested on doing short cases, hour long physician long cases, OSCEs etc. in 2nd year.  In that sense, I think that Australian students (at least from the University of Melbourne), knew more minutiae and random tests with eponymous names you can do on physical examination (not necessarily useful unless you're looking for rare diseases) earlier on in their training, whereas Canadian students were more practically prepared to actually work in the ward environment earlier on.  At Melbourne, we're not really required to do more ward type stuff (we do it more on a 'get as involved as you want' basis in 2nd and 3rd year) until the last semester of 4th year before starting internship.  This works for the Australian model of training however because people spend several years as a house officer in a hospital after graduation before applying for a speciality training program which gives them plenty of time to perform those 'clerkship' type roles but as an actual doctor.  

 

Ultimately I think at the end of medical school, the medical student product for clinical knowledge is the same in both countries after 4 years but the path getting there is a bit different (basic science teaching may be a bit less but students are generally required to have a biomedical science degree or equivalent prior to med school).  Also, I've been cannulating patients since MD2 and had done so many during my emergency rotation in 2nd year that I didn't want to see another vein again for the rest of 2nd year lol.  This would be a pretty standard level of ability for students at Melbourne so I find it odd that students at UQ don't have such basic procedural skills going into their final year..  though ultimately clinical knowledge and reasoning are more important IMO and these kind of skills can be easily developed/practiced through repetition as a student in final year or as an intern, just with a steeper learning curve when nurses are asking you to do it left right and center.

 

Different uni's so different experiences.  I do agree with your points at the end of your post though.  Unless you're a citizen of Australia, work/training places aren't guaranteed and it is a huge investment to make.  Much of medical learning anywhere in the world is based largely on self-directed study but this becomes even more important if you're an international student.  So if you do come here, opportunities are placed in front of you through access to patients, hospitals, consultant doctors etc, but it is up to you to make sure you make the most of them and do your own studying to make up any deficits in your knowledge.

[rogerroger]

FYI: Most CMG trained MD's suck at starting an IV. It's something you might do during med school, sure you might know the steps and technique, but it isn't something most do enough to get great at... If the RN can't get that hard IV started there so no way I will without cheating with an US machine...

[guy30]

I think a slight difference as well is that in Canada, I think all RN's are trained and expected to cannulate.  But in Australia, only some nurses are trained to do it so it is often one of the intern/junior resident's main jobs in the hospital (and they get really good at it).

[Edict]

I have to say that your experiences with sub-standard training are probably more specific for the University of Queensland as an institution, which has increased student numbers to unimaginable numbers over the last ten years and has just completely destroyed it's reputation as a medical school by ballooning class sizes and operating like a cash cow IMO.  For example, at UQ, there are so many international students that I think there are more international students than domestic students, and each class year intake is in the 500-600 student range now if I'm not mistaken!  Also, the rolling admissions process lowers the standard of students attending UQ.  At most other Australian medical schools, international students make up only a small part of the class size (about 10% of the class size at Melbourne).

 

I'm from the University of Melbourne (dual citizen) and I have to say the teaching in Melbourne is at a decently high standard with some pretty world-class hospitals we're learning in.  I've also found the cohort standard of international students at Melbourne to be decently high with the majority of the Canadian students I know having done a Master's/PhD.  I've done a few electives in Canada between 2nd and 3rd year and at least from my experiences, I've found that there are some differences between Canadian and Australian medical teaching, but neither necessarily makes one better than the other.  

 

Medical students in Canada seem to be given more responsibility and are integrated more into the team earlier on (such as being given a pager, expected to take the history on admission etc.), but I found the history taking and physical examination skills to be at a higher level in Australia (Melbourne), particularly since we're tested on doing short cases, hour long physician long cases, OSCEs etc. in 2nd year.  In that sense, I think that Australian students (at least from the University of Melbourne), knew more minutiae and random tests with eponymous names you can do on physical examination (not necessarily useful unless you're looking for rare diseases) earlier on in their training, whereas Canadian students were more practically prepared to actually work in the ward environment earlier on.  At Melbourne, we're not really required to do more ward type stuff (we do it more on a 'get as involved as you want' basis in 2nd and 3rd year) until the last semester of 4th year before starting internship.  This works for the Australian model of training however because people spend several years as a house officer in a hospital after graduation before applying for a speciality training program which gives them plenty of time to perform those 'clerkship' type roles but as an actual doctor.  

 

Ultimately I think at the end of medical school, the medical student product for clinical knowledge is the same in both countries after 4 years but the path getting there is a bit different (basic science teaching may be a bit less but students are generally required to have a biomedical science degree or equivalent prior to med school).  Also, I've been cannulating patients since MD2 and had done so many during my emergency rotation in 2nd year that I didn't want to see another vein again for the rest of 2nd year lol.  This would be a pretty standard level of ability for students at Melbourne so I find it odd that students at UQ don't have such basic procedural skills going into their final year..  though ultimately clinical knowledge and reasoning are more important IMO and these kind of skills can be easily developed/practiced through repetition as a student in final year or as an intern, just with a steeper learning curve when nurses are asking you to do it left right and center.

 

Different uni's so different experiences.  I do agree with your points at the end of your post though.  Unless you're a citizen of Australia, work/training places aren't guaranteed and it is a huge investment to make.  Much of medical learning anywhere in the world is based largely on self-directed study but this becomes even more important if you're an international student.  So if you do come here, opportunities are placed in front of you through access to patients, hospitals, consultant doctors etc, but it is up to you to make sure you make the most of them and do your own studying to make up any deficits in your knowledge.

 

The entry standards aren't much different at other Aus medical schools. Sydney says on its brochure you are guaranteed an interview if your cGPA is over 2.7 and your MCAT is over 8/8/8. Of course, native Australian students have to be very competitive for medical school but I can't say the same of international students. 

[guy30]

The entry standards aren't much different at other Aus medical schools. Sydney says on its brochure you are guaranteed an interview if your cGPA is over 2.7 and your MCAT is over 8/8/8. Of course, native Australian students have to be very competitive for medical school but I can't say the same of international students. 

 

Most other Australian medical schools don't have a rolling admissions process like UQ if that's what you're referring to.  

 

I don't go to USyd but from what I understand, cGPA of 2.7 and MCAT 8/8/8 is a minimum requirement but not the competitive cutoff for admissions, which varies every year (though is still definitely lower than in Canada).  By comparison, the required GPA requirement for McMaster is 3.0 and UBC's MCAT cutoff is only 7/7/7 but you wouldn't rely on that for getting in.

 

As a domestic Aus student, I have to say that it's definitely not as difficult to get into med as a domestic student compared to in Canada as a domestic student however. Heck anywhere in the world is probably easier to get into med compared to Canada, including the US where there are way more medical school's proportionally.  In Aus, there's probably around 3-4 times the number of medical students but only 2/3 the population of Canada, meaning a lot more places for entry.  Also, admissions for domestic students are largely centralized and what state/province you grew up in doesn't factor into your getting into medical school whereas in Canada, this can make a huge difference.  An equally qualified applicant in Ontario for example, may not get in whereas the entry standard will be much lower if you're from Alberta or Manitoba and they would get admission.  Or if you speak french, you're pretty set for getting into medical school in Quebec compared to someone with the same grades in BC etc. 

[Edict]

Most other Australian medical schools don't have a rolling admissions process like UQ if that's what you're referring to.  

 

I don't go to USyd but from what I understand, cGPA of 2.7 and MCAT 8/8/8 is a minimum requirement but not the competitive cutoff for admissions, which varies every year (though is still definitely lower than in Canada).  By comparison, the required GPA requirement for McMaster is 3.0 and UBC's MCAT cutoff is only 7/7/7 but you wouldn't rely on that for getting in.

 

As a domestic Aus student, I have to say that it's definitely not as difficult to get into med as a domestic student compared to in Canada as a domestic student however. Heck anywhere in the world is probably easier to get into med compared to Canada, including the US where there are way more medical school's proportionally.  In Aus, there's probably around 3-4 times the number of medical students but only 2/3 the population of Canada, meaning a lot more places for entry.  Also, admissions for domestic students are largely centralized and what state/province you grew up in doesn't factor into your getting into medical school whereas in Canada, this can make a huge difference.  An equally qualified applicant in Ontario for example, may not get in whereas the entry standard will be much lower if you're from Alberta or Manitoba and they would get admission.  Or if you speak french, you're pretty set for getting into medical school in Quebec compared to someone with the same grades in BC etc. 

 

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/usyd-and-mcat.573181/

 

After you meet their 2.7 GPA cutoff your marks don't count anymore. Not sure about MCAT people are saying 28 or 30, but either way its not really that competitive, even for domestic applicants it must be at least a bit harder than that.

[guy30]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/usyd-and-mcat.573181/

 

After you meet their 2.7 GPA cutoff your marks don't count anymore. Not sure about MCAT people are saying 28 or 30, but either way its not really that competitive, even for domestic applicants it must be at least a bit harder than that.

 

It looks to me like USyd doesn't put as much emphasis on GPA but uses it as a minimum threshold in order to get an interview.  Just as certain schools in Canada don't use MCAT scores and only use GPA and interview, USyd appears to use the GPA only as a cutoff threshold and admission is based 50% on MCAT score and 50% on interview.  I would imagine the average GPA of students would be much higher since that would probably correlate with a higher MCAT score.  

 

Admissions are based on the entire package in the end and all because McMaster has admitted students with GPA's of 3.3-3.5 in the past, I don't assume that is the cutoff GPA for admission either but rather, that other parts of the application such as the interview are probably quite stellar to make up for it.  A MCAT score of 30 or in the low 30's is a pretty common score for admission into many Canadian medical schools IMO.

 

There are definitely some domestic med students in Aus which I think are at a lower standard than the cohort of Canadians I've seen in Melbourne (granted there's only around 10-15 Canadians), but quite a few very bright domestic students as well obviously.  I think the range of student is just a bit wider (also especially cause there are different types of government supported med student places here along with private universities in Australia as well which is also the case in the US) and I'm not sure if it's just a skewed population I'm seeing at Melbourne.  Generally I think the Canadians are definitely in the middle to upper third of students in terms of how they do in med school compared to the other domestic students in the class (who knows, don't know if this was just due to having more drive than other students).  I think last year the top student at one of the top clinical schools was actually an international student as well.