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Information For Those With Eu Citizenship Considering Irish Medical Schools

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This post is mainly directed at North American students with EU citizenship who are considering going to medical school in Ireland.

 

I am a North American currently studying medicine in Ireland. I want to make future applicants aware of a new rule that has been brought in this year regarding how Irish internship places are allocated so you can all make an informed decision before committing to study overseas. While most North American students who go to Ireland for medical school ultimately aim for residencies in North America after graduation, some who have dual EU citizenship may consider staying in Ireland for their intern year. This is especially relevant for that subset of people. 

 

First I'll explain how the old rules for internship allocation worked. Prior to the implementation of a new rule this year, internship places were allocated to all EU citizen applicants before being opened up to non-EU citizens. Within the EU citizens group, no differentiation was made between Irish or International students; jobs were allocated based on class ranking of final year grades (i.e. those who score higher get to pick their job first).

 

This year a new rule was brought in stating that students who obtained their place through the Irish Central Applications Office (CAO) will be prioritized. This effectively means that all Irish students (home students who applied through CAO) will be allocated jobs before international students even if the international student has EU citizenship (students who applied through Atlantic Bridge did NOT obtain their place through CAO). This doesn't necessarily mean that international students with EU citizenship won't get an intern position, but it does mean that every home student (regardless of class ranking) will get to pick a job before international students get to. If there are more applicants than positions available which there likely will be, international students (even those with EU citizenship) are at a higher risk of not getting a job at all. 

 

I'll refrain from commenting on how I personally feel about this new rule, but I thought that people should know about it's existence so you can make a more informed decision. I don't believe this new change has been publicized or made very clear. Hope this helps someone and good luck in all your applications.

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So essentially if you have EU citizenship, you should apply through the CAO stream instead of ABP. But i suppose if you did that, you would probably have the stats to get into a north american school anyways? Since I imagine domestic Irish admissions through CAO is just as difficult as North America.

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I don't think CAO is open for North American students who could otherwise apply through Atlantic Bridge, the people who apply through CAO are mainly those who did secondary school in Ireland. I'm not saying people should start applying through CAO, I don't think that's even possible. Just making people aware that if they go to an Irish school then Irish students will be prioritized for intern spots. 

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I don't think CAO is open for North American students who could otherwise apply through Atlantic Bridge, the people who apply through CAO are mainly those who did secondary school in Ireland. I'm not saying people should start applying through CAO, I don't think that's even possible. Just making people aware that if they go to an Irish school then Irish students will be prioritized for intern spots. 

Even if they have EU citizenship? 

 

Thats good to know, sucks for those who thought they good backup with Internship in ireland. Looks even less likely now.

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Even if they have EU citizenship? 

 

Thats good to know, sucks for those who thought they good backup with Internship in ireland. Looks even less likely now.

 

That's my understanding of it but to be clear I've never researched that specifically. But in the years I've been in Ireland I've never met a North American who had applied through the CAO unless they applied for direct entry from high school or attended high school in Ireland. Worth confirming I guess just to be sure.

 

Yea sucks it's not good news but better than finding out once you've already committed. 

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Perfect example of a country doing what is best for its own people (Canada could learn -> open more schools and consider a normal two-tier system to give those hard working residents a future for a job).

The only thing I can say to maybe give a positive spin is that many Irish med school grads try to leave and seek opportunity elsewhere like USA because of the appeal of the lifestyle in America and higher pay compared to Ireland. So for all those who graduate, some will leave, leaving the possibility for at least a few jobs that will need to be filled.

 

The bigger concern is really the new Carms changes regarding DO students from the USA, and DO initiatives to increase its reputation in Canada. Some US schools already have "Canadian initiatives" to accept more Canadian students, train them, then send them back for residency in Canada. Next cycle DO students will likely be seen more favourably than IMGs and will be taking some of these residency spots. With the way things are going, many really should consider doing the DO degree before going abroad.

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I have my own feelings about the Cdn application system, it's not going to change. I really think residency should be merit based on step scores and LORs and students who go abroad but do the electives and get higher board scores should be ranked higher. I think this should apply to all canadian citizens despite where they chose to study (some do go to the USA or UK as a choice actually, because of other research opportunities or personal reasons). I think if you hold a Canadian passport, complete training at an accredited university, and get the highest board score, you deserve to be right up there, especially if you go out of your way to do electives back home and network.

Not sure how others feel about this, but it's my opinion.

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I have my own feelings about the Cdn application system, it's not going to change. I really think residency should be merit based on step scores and LORs and students who go abroad but do the electives and get higher board scores should be ranked higher. I think this should apply to all canadian citizens despite where they chose to study (some do go to the USA or UK as a choice actually, because of other research opportunities or personal reasons). I think if you hold a Canadian passport, complete training at an accredited university, and get the highest board score, you deserve to be right up there, especially if you go out of your way to do electives back home and network.

Not sure how others feel about this, but it's my opinion.

Well generally speaking, those that do electives in Canada do in fact have much better odds of matching...its pretty much a pre-requisite and getting Canadian LORs.

 

USMD students are for express purposes considered CMGs and do just fine if they so choose. 

 

UK, well again, one should know the political situation before going abroad and can't claim this sort of stuff afterwards. The good thing about the UK is that they would be gauranteed a spot there for their training. Otherwise they can still apply back just like other IMGs, and will likely probably have a better time at any rate anecodtally. Otherwise the US is a fine option.

 

The only reason the US allows so many IMGs is because they have spare spots, most countries do not. At least in Canada, the majority of spots for residency are high quality. This cannot be said of the US. Vast variablity.

 

Also in the US, you bet your dollar that US grads are favoured over IMGs(US-IMGs and non-US IMGs). So its not effectively too different in some senses. So it most definitely is not all meritocarcy there either, actually a far cry from it in many ways. Even amongst US graduates, some programs favour top 10 schools over state schools etc - even though they are all US grads. 

 

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and you are not alone in the way you feel.

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So essentially if you have EU citizenship, you should apply through the CAO stream instead of ABP. But i suppose if you did that, you would probably have the stats to get into a north american school anyways? Since I imagine domestic Irish admissions through CAO is just as difficult as North America.

 

CAO is essentially a high school application process, in order to apply you would most likely need to have done high school in Ireland. 

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Perfect example of a country doing what is best for its own people (Canada could learn -> open more schools and consider a normal two-tier system to give those hard working residents a future for a job).

The only thing I can say to maybe give a positive spin is that many Irish med school grads try to leave and seek opportunity elsewhere like USA because of the appeal of the lifestyle in America and higher pay compared to Ireland. So for all those who graduate, some will leave, leaving the possibility for at least a few jobs that will need to be filled.

 

The bigger concern is really the new Carms changes regarding DO students from the USA, and DO initiatives to increase its reputation in Canada. Some US schools already have "Canadian initiatives" to accept more Canadian students, train them, then send them back for residency in Canada. Next cycle DO students will likely be seen more favourably than IMGs and will be taking some of these residency spots. With the way things are going, many really should consider doing the DO degree before going abroad.

 

Unfortunately with respect to Ireland, the number of med school grads who leave is high but they also train more than they need in Ireland, they expect some Irish grads to leave, also almost everyone does internship in Ireland regardless of whether or not they want to leave Ireland for residency. 

 

I also don't think that DO students will be seen more favourably compared to IMGs, i think it will be a similar process for both. PDs when looking to fill IMG spots are essentially looking at candidates coming from a very very wide range of backgrounds and I really doubt they are going to prefer students from any particular schooling system initially, they may develop stronger feelings once they take a few DOs and see how they do but initially I don't believe there will be much preference either way, maybe some initial curiosity for sure. 

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Wow, that's terrible.  It should really be challenged as it sounds like a big violation of EU human rights.  UK foundation year is likely still open to Irish/ EU grads though?

 

Yes it is. 

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Wow, that's terrible.  It should really be challenged as it sounds like a big violation of EU human rights.  UK foundation year is likely still open to Irish/ EU grads though?

Why are people always so quick to drop down the "human rights" card.... being in a privileged position to attend medical school in my mind is very far removed from human rights issues.

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Why are people always so quick to drop down the "human rights" card.... being in a privileged position to attend medical school in my mind is very far removed from human rights issues.

haha glad that I'm not the only one who failed to see the 'human rights violation' here

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I hate to be defensive, but I do have some background in this area (and this is the first I've mentioned rights laws in any of my posts that I can remember). The EU has very specific laws about discrimination in employment. Unless you contracted into an agreement to wave your rights as a condition of acceptance to medical school, there's definitely a case to be made that the HSE is required to treat you equally. I have no personal interest in this FYI. I just think it's unfortunate when people are quick to dismiss these options and are taken advantage of.

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I hate to be defensive, but I do have some background in this area (and this is the first I've mentioned rights laws in any of my posts that I can remember). The EU has very specific laws about discrimination in employment. Unless you contracted into an agreement to wave your rights as a condition of acceptance to medical school, there's definitely a case to be made that the HSE is required to treat you equally. I have no personal interest in this FYI. I just think it's unfortunate when people are quick to dismiss these options and are taken advantage of.

Oh for sure, i didn't mean to put you on the spot specifically - just the general sentiment about human rights related to medicine training spots etc. 

 

Countries take measures to do what they need to do to ensure their graduates have first priority on training spots etc. 

 

I definitely can see where you are coming from though re: people with citizenship being given a lower priority - i think the rebuttal would be that you are still treated equally in the sense that you are not being outright barred from applying, but just that there are a priority ranking system.

 

Much like how many employers use internal ranking system for seniority etc. Companies, employers etc reserve the right to have a certain structure to how they conduct their hiring practices within the context of the rules and regulations.  

 

Again, sorry if you felt singled out - that wasn't my intent!

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No worries.

 

I can see where you're coming from; people on this site do fall back on legal recourse without having a clue what they're talking about.

 

The issue here is that, after the application process, there is no difference between the ABP and domestic students. They get the same degree and take the same mixed classes. It'd be hard to argue that there's something different about this group that allows them to be treated differently for employment (unless the ABP forces you to contract into this which opens up a whole other can of worms).

 

Anyway, it's all academic until someone tries to challenge and then who knows what will happen. My experience has been these types of suits end in a one case exception settled quickly and then swept under the rug.

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No worries.

 

I can see where you're coming from; people on this site do fall back on legal recourse without having a clue what they're talking about.

 

The issue here is that, after the application process, there is no difference between the ABP and domestic students. They get the same degree and take the same mixed classes. It'd be hard to argue that there's something different about this group that allows them to be treated differently for employment (unless the ABP forces you to contract into this which opens up a whole other can of worms).

 

Anyway, it's all academic until someone tries to challenge and then who knows what will happen. My experience has been these types of suits end in a one case exception settled quickly and then swept under the rug.

To be fair though, the international seats and domestic seats have different implications behind them.  It gets murky now considering some of those in the international seats, also have EU citizenship...so i can see where you are coming from for sure. It is a odd predicament, that one citizen is slightly less than the other. But that the one with citizenship but living abroad gets essentially excluded from applying to the domestic spots, even if they wanted to, because of where they did high school...

 

Confusing stuff

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To be fair though, the international seats and domestic seats have different implications behind them.  It gets murky now considering some of those in the international seats, also have EU citizenship...so i can see where you are coming from for sure. It is a odd predicament, that one citizen is slightly less than the other. But that the one with citizenship but living abroad gets essentially excluded from applying to the domestic spots, even if they wanted to, because of where they did high school...

 

Confusing stuff

 

Forgive me if I am intruding on people's conversation or really shoot my mouth on things I have so few knowledge on. I just find the entire exercises of excluding students who happen to be on international seats with EU/Irish citizenship (no less) to be plainly terrible and exploitative. 

 

I just hope that the students who are presently matriculating and were matriculated recently were grandfathered into the old system. To do otherwise is to lose entirely the veneer that the schools are in it for education and cultural friendship between Ireland and NA and instead present itself as money-making schemes. It should be, after all, the schools' responsibility that they do not create more EU citizens but international students than their residency systems can serve.

 

Fortunately, it seems that these students can apply to UK. To me and IMHO, it just means that the Irish schools have abdicate their responsibilities and load their problems onto other countries, particularly UK.

 

However, these are my thoughts and opinions, poorly searched and badly researched they are.

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This post is mainly directed at North American students with EU citizenship who are considering going to medical school in Ireland.

 

I am a North American currently studying medicine in Ireland. I want to make future applicants aware of a new rule that has been brought in this year regarding how Irish internship places are allocated so you can all make an informed decision before committing to study overseas. While most North American students who go to Ireland for medical school ultimately aim for residencies in North America after graduation, some who have dual EU citizenship may consider staying in Ireland for their intern year. This is especially relevant for that subset of people. 

 

First I'll explain how the old rules for internship allocation worked. Prior to the implementation of a new rule this year, internship places were allocated to all EU citizen applicants before being opened up to non-EU citizens. Within the EU citizens group, no differentiation was made between Irish or International students; jobs were allocated based on class ranking of final year grades (i.e. those who score higher get to pick their job first).

 

This year a new rule was brought in stating that students who obtained their place through the Irish Central Applications Office (CAO) will be prioritized. This effectively means that all Irish students (home students who applied through CAO) will be allocated jobs before international students even if the international student has EU citizenship (students who applied through Atlantic Bridge did NOT obtain their place through CAO). This doesn't necessarily mean that international students with EU citizenship won't get an intern position, but it does mean that every home student (regardless of class ranking) will get to pick a job before international students get to. If there are more applicants than positions available which there likely will be, international students (even those with EU citizenship) are at a higher risk of not getting a job at all. 

 

I'll refrain from commenting on how I personally feel about this new rule, but I thought that people should know about it's existence so you can make a more informed decision. I don't believe this new change has been publicized or made very clear. Hope this helps someone and good luck in all your applications.

Can I get the source for this? I would like to share it with my classmates. Thanks! :)

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Forgive me if I am intruding on people's conversation or really shoot my mouth on things I have so few knowledge on. I just find the entire exercises of excluding students who happen to be on international seats with EU/Irish citizenship (no less) to be plainly terrible and exploitative.

 

I just hope that the students who are presently matriculating and were matriculated recently were grandfathered into the old system. To do otherwise is to lose entirely the veneer that the schools are in it for education and cultural friendship between Ireland and NA and instead present itself as money-making schemes. It should be, after all, the schools' responsibility that they do not create more EU citizens but international students than their residency systems can serve.

 

Fortunately, it seems that these students can apply to UK. To me and IMHO, it just means that the Irish schools have abdicate their responsibilities and load their problems onto other countries, particularly UK.

 

However, these are my thoughts and opinions, poorly searched and badly researched they are.

Agreed on most points... Its a bit perplexing and I do hope those already matriculated are grandfathered.

 

And that ABP is telling its EU citizen applicants this upfront

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Can I get the source for this? I would like to share it with my classmates. Thanks! :)

 

The only place I have found the CAO rule mentioned through an official channel is in the FAQs section of the Guide to Application and Appointment to Intern Training in Ireland 2016, which was sent out to final year medical students by email. Attached is relevant page. Note points 1.6 and 1.8

 

 

Agreed on most points... Its a bit perplexing and I do hope those already matriculated are grandfathered.

 

And that ABP is telling its EU citizen applicants this upfront

 

The rule was brought in this year and applies to this year's graduates. No grandfathering. As a final year student, I did not receive an announcement regarding the new rule. I attended a talk given by the intern coordinator for our area on the intern application process early in the academic year but this new rule was not mentioned. The way most of us found out was by noticing the new question about CAO included in the application form and then reading the FAQs in the guidance documents. Unfortunately by this point the deadlines for applications in other countries had passed so some people who would have preferred to apply elsewhere if they had known about this new rule were then left with no alternatives.

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