How long does it take?

[Guest nuck123]

Hello

 

I'm just wondering how long it takes to establish yourself as a doctor. Once you do med school, then you do a residency, then after that what happens? I've heard that some people have to do fellowships and then specialize even more after that. So how many years does it actually take to set up a medical practice?

 

Thanks

[Guest MrNeuroscience]

What type of physician do you want to become? It will vary depending on specialties, sub-specialties and geographic areas.

[Guest NeuroObsessed]

"What type of physician do you want to become? It will vary depending on specialties, sub-specialties and geographic areas."

 

NEUROSURGERY in Ontario?

[Guest MrNeuroscience]

What a coincidence!

 

Well, I'd say following four years of med school, six years of residency, and because you can never get enough of the brain - another year or two of fellowship (however you are a full fledged Neurosurgeon at that point) when it's all said and done 10 to 12 years. (Not to mention the fact that a lot of Neurosurgeons pack in a masters degree somewhere in their training... either by doing a combined MD/PhD [add 3 years] or by doing a masters following residency [add 1-2 years])

[Guest nuck123]

How long would it take to become an oncologist?

[Guest Steve MD09]

As a general rule, medical school is 3-4 years, residency is 2-6 years, and I think fellowships are 1-2 years each. Family medicine requires the shortest amount of postgraduate training, surgical subspecialties require the most, and everything else is somewhere in between. Search for the Royal College of Physicians & Surgeons website to get specifics on various programs.

[Guest TheChosenOneDDS]

more the reason why medicine are for people who are truly dedicated. it takes about 5-6 years (depending on which med school you went to), just to be a family doctor. that's not including undergrad. If you aren't willing to commit, I say quit while you're ahead. Because those 5-6 years minimum are very tough, if you want even more specialized training that's like almost 8-9 years ONTOP of 3-4 years undergrad, that's like 11-12 not including fellowship years post secondary. Usually people who are 11-12 years post secondary can start making big bucks in other more lucrative careers. The life of a professional in health care is not easy money if that is why you want to do it. Not to mention the interest and opportunity costs you have lost....because most people are in debt....it adds up. You will only be richer and better off than most people and see the real coin roll in after 35.....

 

So take that into consideration. Otherwise, being a doctor if you're not a surgeon or on call, is a pretty sweet job. Dermatologists, general physicians, general dentists, orthodontists, some opthalmologists, radiologists, and optometrists have REALLY sweet jobs.

 

 

That is why I don't get why some people are so impractical to the point where they would do a master's, ph.d, etc, just to get into meds because it takes too much time and costs too much money and wastes too much resources. It is prob easier and less time consuming to fork out more cash initially and go to the US or Ireland if they want to be an MD that bad....rather than wasting both money and youth.....call me pragmatic but i don't want to be starting to just work when i am 50...not to mention all the other aspects of life put off just so you can "try" to get into med school.

 

 

People who are like that, are true losers to the sense of the word. Because chances are they might not even suceed and when they die, they will have nothing to show for....sure you might have all these degrees, but with no family, no kids, no real accomplishments in the world, you're no better than some bum who wasted away as a booze hound....at least that is my two cents. People should know when to draw the line, that is my message i guess.

[Guest MrNeuroscience]

^I guess no one can ever claim you hold back

 

As for people who complete a master's or a PhD being "losers" I'm happy to say you are horribly mistaken. (I for one have not yet completed a graduate degree, but I hope that I will before my career is through). If you look at any of the designations of some of the top clinicians it does not simply say MD, there are fellowships and graduate degrees on top of that. If all people did were complete MDs then the medical community would remain stagnant, and slowly, if ever, move forward. Research clinicians are the people that connect the bench work to the bedside work.

 

Granted some people do go into graduate work because they did not get into medicine (not because they are actually interested in it) a lot of folks do not and are actually interested in what they do. Instead of using your blanket to generalize, hide under it to think before you type.

[Guest kylerh]

I believe this is the break down.

 

undergraduate degree(3-4 years)

 

med school (3-4 years)

 

residency in INTERNAL MEDICINE(3years)

 

fellowship is MEDICAL ONCOLOGY(2years)

 

This is a field that I'm interested in along with radiology.

[Guest TheChosenOneDDS]

Mr Neuroscience, i don't think there are people who just do a ph.d because they didn't get in, i'm sure there are those who are genuinely interested. But those aren't your typical kind of person. They become profs. THey wish to dedicate their lives to academics, that's a whole different story.

 

As for thinking, I think i've given it a lot of thought, and if my words offend you, that's just too bad lol...you're just twisting my words. There is a difference between people who do a master's and a ph.d versus people who do that just because they are chasing a dream they cannot reach. The latter are losers because there are more practical, quicker and more efficient ways of achieving their goals. That is all.

[Guest MrNeuroscience]

I'm not offended, I just believe that you are wrong. Calling someone a loser because YOU believe there are better ways of going about their goals (which perhaps you should write a pamphlet to be handed out with all rejection letters so people know how to deal with the disappointment) is blatently small minded. People find things to fill time. If you are apt in that area and have the connections, then why not work on a Masters until you can apply again to medicine. That does not make you a loser... in fact, I believe that doing NOTHING following a rejection would constitute being a loser (because you have simply given up).

I did not twist your words, they are there plain and clear.

[Guest TheChosenOneDDS]

let me put it this way. I'm one of the minimalists, 3 years undergrad, fast tracked through high school (4 years), 4 years dental school and now i'm about to do 6 years and guess what, I'll have an MD and I'll be ready to work. That's 13 years on top of high school.

 

Most people do even more + the extra year of high school (not anymore coz OAC is gone)...i dunno with an added 2 years for a master's, and another 3-4 for ph.d, when will you work?

 

I think I'm already getting too old...

[Guest Ollie]

So I'm one of those losers who did an MSc because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do and knew that my undergrad alone wouldn't get me in to med school. I even (gasp) took a year off to work and travel after my undergrad. So I started med school at the geriatric age of 26 and it was the best decision I could have made. I know that I haven't missed out on any of my twenties (grad school is great for maintaining your social life). I'm more sure of what I want to do in life and I'm more settled personally. I know all these things will make me a better physician (not that those that start younger won't be, this is for me personally).

 

So assuming that I do a 5 year residency, I will be 35 when I start to practive. So this gives me THIRTY YEARS of potential practice. This is compared to THIRTY FOUR YEARS if I had started right after undergrad. Big whipdeecrap.

 

You seem to think that trying out different things in life is mutually exclusive with having partner, starting a family, having accomplishments and generally being happy. Please tell me why this is so.

 

So by my calculations you are about 25. I only have a few years on you so I won't patronize you, but seriously, the older you get, the younger you will realize you are (I hope that makes sense).

[Guest debmd]

I've got to side with Mr. Neuroscience on this one. I guess it's a matter of perspective.

 

People who are like that, are true losers to the sense of the word. Because chances are they might not even suceed and when they die, they will have nothing to show for....

 

Perhaps DDS neglects to appreciate that success holds different meaning for different people. What does it mean for him/her? I can probably guess...

 

Life is not an assembly line to be traversed simply to get to a destination. There is no rush. It is the path that counts. Everything you do provides an opportunity to reflect on new experiences and gain insight into yourself and others. This is a good thing, especially in medicine where you are faced with people's experiences all the time. Life experience helps you relate and empathize.

 

Then again, I am one of those "losers" who completed a MSc and 3 years of work experience prior to entering medical school. I am pretty pleased with my accomplishments thus far. In a practical sense, my MSc/work experience was certainly not wasted in the academic sense and has already enabled me to continue pursuing research as a medical student. This is also a good thing (especially if you want to get into a competitive specialty and/or do research as a physician).

 

Finally, I might add, I am happily married. So, for all you folks out there worryied by DDS's predictions that a 2-year MSc may diminsh your chances for success, accomplishment and happiness let me assuage your fears!

[Guest TheChosenOneDDS]

There's a difference, you guys aren't losers because you didn't just do a masters then a PH.D and end up NOT getting in. You still got in within relative time.

 

2 years is not as bad as like 5. And to be honest, deb, you're a woman, i think....you will want to have kids, etc. So honestly, what kind of specialty will you want to do? ARe you willing to put off having kids?

[Guest MCSpiceRack]

oh snap

[Guest TheChosenOneDDS]

you know what, i'm out of line. I got too carried away. I'm not going to edit my message because I want people to see where i might have screwed up. I'm not afraid or embarassed about that.

 

But you know what each to their own. I just can't prescribe to that philosophy that you folks live by. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have generalized but that is how i feel. I like to get my things done, quick, efficient, practical and properly. I am not a person of much sentiment. May be that is why I am suitable to be a surgeon. I'm straight and honest.

 

Sorry.

[Guest piratefan]

i hope that any surgeon operating on me is a little less "honest" and a little less sexist... (i take issue with any comments beginning with "and to be honest, you're a woman"... )

 

while i'm definitely hoping to fast-track my way into medicine (ideally, entering after 3 years of undergrad), i definitely have a ton of respect for everyone who has racked up life experience, research etc before getting there... if anything, i feel like i'll be the one striving to catch up once i'm at med school (ie i'll be the loser).

 

just my two cents.

[Guest RedBull33]

Ollie, completely agree.

 

I've spoken to several individuals in my class, who, after 'fast tracking' their way into medical school, have wondered what it would have been like to take a year off, work, or if you can believe it, do an M.Sc. or PhD before starting med school.

 

Life experience must count for something. I don't go to U of T but isn't a quarter of their class composed of grad students?

 

DDS - you're obviously very proud of your accomplishments so far, but what will you do, since you don't 'prescribe' to the philosophy of trying different things out, if things don't actually work out perfectly for you? You might think this would be a disaster (judging from your previous comments) but a good dose of humility won't hurt, especially when you realize that as a surgeon you're not going to cure/treat everyone, and sometimes, it will be your fault.

[Guest TheChosenOneDDS]

well what do you mean if things don't work out for me? THings screw up all the time. Like I didn't anticipate the Iran war affecting my stocks that much. They fluctuated so much, I was getting worried at first. So failure isn't new to me. Put it this way, it went down like $10,000 but then after it came back up...so for me I'm used to this kinda thing about things not always working perfectly.

 

I'm going to be blunt. I'm going into surgery because I have the ability and because I have a true passion for it. Mind you I'm a bit arrogant. Most of the people in my class do not have grad degrees. Some dont' even have degrees I think. Only may be a few have masters. I would not waste my time if I didn't get into dentistry because it was what I wanted to do, and I'd probably be better off working at my mom's holding company at least financially.

 

With great power comes great responsibility as the cliche goes, and if it is my fault, just to make sure not to make the same mistakes again and realize where i went wrong. I guess that is where the experienec comes in but I don't see how getting a masters will help me with that...., that is more clinical experience.

[Guest muchdutch]

haha! I think redbull meant more along the lines of something a bit more major than your stocks crashing - that's only money.

 

Like what if you got into an accident and your hands were crushed/amputated - then what? Sure, this may be unlikely and certainly not something that anybody really needs to worry about or plan for, but do you have any perspective that there may be life outside of your perfect plan? I think that's what he's trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong, redbull).

[Guest muchdutch]

I don't get why some people are so impractical to the point where they would do a master's, ph.d, etc, just to get into meds because it takes too much time and costs too much money and wastes too much resources

 

but you said it yourself:

 

medicine are for people who are truly dedicated

 

so what better way is there to dedicate yourself to something than to strive to achieve it, no matter what the fiscal, emotional, or time costs?

 

not to mention all the other aspects of life put off just so you can "try" to get into med school

 

Who says people are putting off having a family, relationships, accomplishements etc. just to try for meds? Just because you're in school doesn't mean life stops. It may make things more interesting however...

 

there are more practical, quicker and more efficient ways of achieving their goals

 

but what if the goal is medicine? It sounds like in this statement you're referring more to the fiscal side of life, rather than the personal fulfullment aspect.

 

I'm certainly not trying to persuade you to my perspective, however I do believe that calling people 'losers' because they chose the scenic route (or whatever) is appropriate - this is a very narrow minded point of view as the life lessons one learns along the way are predominantly learned outside of the classroom and are invaluable. The life experiences I have learned along my route are worth multiple times the five-figure debt that I owe the government right now - I remember most of those experiences, but can hardly remember the basics of many of my classes.

 

I admire your dedication to your goal, but you really shouldn't judge others' decisions in life because they do not correlate to yours - wait to do that until you've spent a few years working/travelling/completing grad school/having a family/etc.

[Guest TheChosenOneDDS]

i am talking about medicine.

 

if you can't get in canada, apply to medicine in another country. you'll have your MD in no time.

 

understood?

 

hope so.

 

it is that simple. as for monetary, if i wanted money i wouldn't be a surgeon. I don't need to work, i just choose to.

and I have probably travelled to more places than most people here....

[Guest MrNeuroscience]

And I suppose you can gut fish and tread water better than a lot of us too.

The real question is "who cares". Some people like the journey, some people just want to get to their destination as fast as possible. Neither one is right or wrong and the onus certainly does not fall to you to decide for them.

[Guest TheChosenOneDDS]

i don't need to gut fish, it's already gutted for me i don't wanna talk about this anymore. So if there is nothing for me to help anyone with, I'm done with this thread. You guys can all have the last word, coz I know i already have the last laugh.