Tuition and federal/provincial support

[Guest Lorae]

Ok... maybe I'm being overly optimistic because I'm *not* a medical studen yet but I am trying to start my planning for if I do get accepted.

 

I've come to terms with the fact that my tuition will be between 15k and 17k per year. I don't like the fact that they charge med students differentially just for the sole fact of potential income (and they know the banks will give it to us).

 

I have 2 major issues though:

 

1) a lot of your med school "professors" are clinical physicians or residents who have been told teaching is a part of their job - and they do it without any extra pay. If I'm paying through my ass shouldn't my teachers at least get paid the salary of an associate professor or sessional lecturer??? Where does the tuition money actually go??

 

2) why do I qualify for the exact same amount of federal and provincial funding (aka interest deferred) as my sister who is doing a 4.5k/year anthropology degree????? If they are able to charge me 3 times the tuition shouldn't I qualify for 3 times the interest free support???

 

 

hmmmm... i think this might qualify as my first official rant :smokin

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there Lorae,

 

I don't like the fact that they charge med students differentially just for the sole fact of potential income (and they know the banks will give it to us).

 

It's not just medical students who are charged huge tuition fees in university. Other programs, professional and otherwise, pay equal or higher fees. Check out the yearly tuition fees of a number of graduate programs at UofT :eek :

 

www.sgs.utoronto.ca/Current/fees/fullyearfees.asp

 

As to where the fees go, well UofT curently has a heck of a lot of construction projects at various stages of completion at the moment, for one...

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest Lorae]

oh yeah - i meant to say I disagreed with differential tuition for *any* group of students (based on future earning potential).

 

I don't know what the answer it to the rising cost of education. You could make everything equal... but then you have all people paying something like $9000 per year - which isn't necessarily fair to the undergrad arts student who won't have much job potential without graduate studies.

 

Frankly I can deal with the fact I will have to pay so much, but I'd really like to see increased (interest free) loan availability.

 

hmmm... maybe the governments have a deal with the banks.... (we'll charge 17k per year tuition but we won't increase loans - that way they will come to you for a 125k prime +1% line of credit... MWAHAHAHA *evil grin*)

[Guest aneliz]

This is something that med students have been *screaming* at politicians about...and nobody seems to a)listen or b)care.

 

Where does the money go??? Back into the university as a whole. It is the university of X that gets your tuition money...not the faculty of medicine! They are using their professional programs to subsidise the rest of the university...why? Because they can and they need the $$$. They are limited in what they can charge the undergrads...but they can pretty much charge the med, dent, law, business and other 'professional' students whatever they like...so they do. According to our dean, the extra money from UWO med students has been 'invested' into the building and the facilities....they are spending MILLIONS to upgrade the med sci building....specifically the research labs and office space for basic science faculty....unfortunately, these areas only indirectly impact on the medical students (they are much more applicable to the graduate students) and are causing a lot of construction noise and dirt and aggravation for a project that is not even going to be done by the time we graduate...that is what our tuition money is going to.

 

Apparently it has also gone to set up some new scholarship funds...but they really don't make that big a difference seeing as they don't even offset the tuition increase....

 

As for government aid...this is a HUGE problem. MAXIMUM OSAP doesn't even cover the FIRST INSTALLMENT of our tuition...let alone living expenses, books, etc. Result - must borrow from banks...who are getting a little bit more twitchy about med students these days (no more banks crawling over each other to offer the med students loans seeing as the first group with the huge debts have graduated and are having difficulty paying...some have even declared bankruptcy according to some rumours...). Problem with borrowing from the banks is that you have to borrow MORE from the banks to pay the interest on what you have already borrowed = exponential debt increase.

 

Get out and talk to your MPP...

[Guest UWOMED2005]

The good news is that you will be able to pay the bills. . . even if it means you're slaving hard for years just so that one of the major banks can crack a billion dollars in profits yet again. The banks really are quite supportive (or opportunistic) when it comes to med students.

 

I'm with the CMA/National Bank Line of Credit. It gives me $30,000/yr PLUS what I get from OSAP, which has a max of about $10,500 (with a bit more for your clerkship year.) That works out to about $160,000. . . enough to pay the bills during med school, but it will also leave you with a debt at the end equal to the cost of a small house (if you use it all.)

[Guest malsa]

Hi UWOMED2005 (or anyone else),

 

Is a $30000/yr loan typical for an incoming student? What is the interest like on that?

 

Same question goes for OSAP. If you have no previous debt, but no savings and little parental contribution, is $10,500 how much you can expect to get?

 

I haven't looked into this yet, and I was wondering because of bursary forms that will need to be filled out.

 

Thanks so much!

[Guest aneliz]

$11 000 is the absolute maximum that OSAP will give a first or second year med student (provided that you are single, have no kids and have been out of high school >5 years). If you haven't been out of high school >5 years, the maximum drops to the impressive sum of $6600. This is the absolute maximum...even if you are an orphan that lives in the dumpster out back and wears a paper bag to school each day....

 

Typical debt accumulation for one year of school (tuition + books + rent + utilities + other assorted stuff like clothes, etc) = ~$28 000 according to UWO's budget calculations... Most students have ~$25 000 debt (min) per school year.

 

Interest on $32 000 debt is costing me ~$115 dollars per month right now....

[Guest turtle]

just to clarify....do you use the balance on your loans to pay the 115$/month interest??

[Guest malsa]

thanks for the info, aneliz!

[Guest aneliz]

That's right....the $115 interest comes out of the line of credit...which of course increases the amount that I owe...meaning I have to pay even MORE interest the next month....and so the cycle goes....

[Guest marbledust]

I have mixed feelings about deferential fees. I am not overjoyed at the prospect of an enormous debt load when I graduate. It's a choice I had to make when I decided I wanted to do medicine. In addition to the tution costs, I gave up a relatively good salary. But I did it willing and accept that was the "cost" of fullfilling my dream.

 

But the truth is that the money has to come from somewhere to run the programs and offset other costs to post-secondary institutes, including putting up and maintaining buildings. If there is no increase in government funding, then there is little option but to increase tution.

 

It costs substantially more to educate future physicians than other post-secondary students, the average numbers I have heard numerous times are in the $280,000 to $350,000 range. It is also true that future physicians (and lawyers and MBA's) make higher incomes. Is it fair to anthropology students, etc to subsidize the education of medical students when the total cost of their educations is a fraction of ours? I don't think so. It would be nice to see an increase in government funding, but is it fair to average taxpayers to heavily subsidize a future physician or lawyer who will end up making a considerably larger salary than "average" Canadians?

 

A bit of a "devil's advocate" position to be sure. :hat

[Guest Lorae]

Hey aneliz... wait until it's 125k

 

at 6% that's $625/month interest!

 

*shudder*

 

I am a true believer that it's all worth it in the end though.

[Guest physiology]

I think the government can get away with it - all they have to do is tell the media that the average salary of a doctor (in BC) is ~$300 000, that they get paid during residency, and that the tuition (even at $15000) is still subsidized.

 

A lay person will read the $300 000 figure and say "Charge em whatever the hell you want!"

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Aneliz - you actually get a bit more OSAP in 3rd year because it's calculated on a 12 month school term, and they don't expect you to make any $$ during the summer.

 

Somehow, I do seem to be coming close to maxing out the available resources. At least that was the case in1st and 2nd year. . . I think 3rd year I might be able to run under with bursary assistance (bursary awards go up significantly with increased debtload). $30k is what is budgeted if you are on a very strict budget (ie limited textbooks, don't buy a palm pilot, stave on the car purchase until 3rd year and mooch rides for clinical methods in 1st and 2nd year) and lucky nothing bad happens to you (ie the car you saved money on buying an old used one breaks down and you have to throw $2400 into it for repairs.)

 

Borrowing money sucks. It runs against every fiscal principle I've ever been taught. But considering before I knew about the loans available I was thinking of a) not going to med school even if accepted joining the military or c) selling a major organ on the black market to pay tuition (ok, maybe that last one was an exagerrration) I'm glad the resource is available if you need it.

[Guest aneliz]

Yes UWOMeds, I know that OSAP increases in 3rd year...but only because the 'school year' lengthens... I think max OSAP in 3rd year is ~$14 000? (I know that it is still short of our total tuition)...

 

(If you read my post carefully, you would see that I said max OSAP for a first or second year student was $11 000...:b )

[Guest UWOMED2005]

I think it was $14 000. And I did read your post. . . I wasn't trying to correct you but rather pass on some good news. Which you alread knew. My bad. Doh!

[Guest turtle]

Sorry if I'm just repeating myself, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this whole idea of paying off the interest of one's loan with the same loan.

 

So basically, each year more & more of your budget goes toward interest payments. Some of the schools have bursaries to help you out with this, do they not?

 

And Lorae: Is that 625$/month figure correct? That would be once you had finished school so how on earth does someone pay for that during residency and still have enough left over to eat & pay rent??

 

turtle

[Guest aneliz]

You raise some good questions turtle....ones that we would all love to know the answers to!!!

 

Yes, the $625 figure is most likely correct...making it really hard to even keep up with the interest payments let alone pay down any of the actual loan while you are a resident (PGY1 = ~$40 000 gross). Some residents continue to borrow money during their residency as well. Paying interest with the loan is a great scheme for the banks...exactly why they like to give med students lines of credit....you end up borrowing money from a bank to pay interest on money that you have already borrowed from them...and then next month you will borrow more money from them to pay interest on the money that you borrowed last month to pay the interest on the money that you already borrowed from them...and on it goes....great system if you are the bank!

 

Most med schools offer some bursary money....but it is not a get rich quick scheme...I suppose you could use it to pay your interest....but usually it comes directly off of your tuition, so you only owe the university $11 000 instead of $15 000 for example...rather than getting a cheque for $4000 to use as you wish.

[Guest turtle]

Thanks Aneliz...I think I get it now...though I wish I didn't have to!!

 

As someone who (when I get in!) will have to rely solely on loans/bursaries/etc. for funding, that is a pretty scary scenario. I mean, obviously it can be done, since there are people out there who are doing it right now. And it's not something that would stop me from choosing medicine....but as someone who already just scrapes by every month without $15000+ in tuition to pay and crazy interest payments to make, it is more than a little nerve-wracking...

 

turtle

[Guest seonagh]

Is it fair to anthropology students, etc to subsidize the education of medical students when the total cost of their educations is a fraction of ours?

 

One way that I tend to think of this is ...

When the government pays it is really the public that pays and as a member of the public do I and most people out there want to see more anthropologists or more doctors??

 

Seriously though, the investment in government funding must be somewhat guided by what the public needs and by demand for persons with the skills that subsidy dollars are buying.

Seonagh

[Guest moo]

Just curious, how much does the average med student in Ontario owe after four years? Just trying to compare it to my education, which for me will be about 160k (CAD) at a US school.

[Guest aneliz]

I think the stats from last year were that most owed somewhere in the range of ~$100 000 CAD...but that class was only paying $10 000 tuition not $15 000.... Projected debt for us is ~$125 000 CAD...

[Guest marbledust]

One way that I tend to think of this is ...

When the government pays it is really the public that pays and as a member of the public do I and most people out there want to see more anthropologists or more doctors??

 

I understand that this was written somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I didn't pick anthropology to slam the field, but to show to nearly all post-secondary education is quite heavily subsidized, some programs significantly more than others. Nobody's tuition at public universities covers the total cost of educating the student (except in rare program-specific cases).

 

I am sure too the public would love to see more doctors and fewer anthropologists. But if it costs ~$300,000 to educate one doctor, not even considering if the other non-financial resources needed to train medical students are available, the stark reality is that the is a limit on how many doctors that can be trained.

 

If the deferential fees were done away with we would be looking at cuts in medical school enrollments, not the increases we have seen recently.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Floating back to the top.

 

Ian