Osteopathic schools

[Guest Jimbo]

What are your opinions of osteopathic medicine and going that route in the States?

[Guest Ian Wong]

DO's are not very well known at all here in British Columbia, and I suspect most everywhere else in Canada. There are no Canadian osteopathic medical schools.

 

As far as CaRMS is concerned, if you didn't graduate from a Canadian MD school, you can't match in the first round here, so applying to Canadian residencies for specialty training isn't really an option for DO's.

 

As far as DO's go, there's a lot of talk about how the osteopathic school of thought is radically different than the allopathic MD philosophy. However, with that said, I haven't heard of many more substantial differences other than the incorporation of OMM (osteopathic musculoskeletal manipulation), and the "holistic principle" of treating the patient as a whole, and not just a disease entity.

 

To the OMM side, it might be useful as a primary care physician, but learning that doesn't, in my mind, seem to be all that useful if you are entering certain other fields of medicine afterwards. eg. radiology, pathology, anesthesia, dermatology, most surgical specialties, or many of the non-practicing MD fields (eg. hospital admin/MBA, law/malpractice, epidemiology and community health, pharmaceuticals and biotech, etc).

 

Also, one thing that I've learned very rapidly in medicine is that if you don't use it, you lose it. Four years of OMM in medical school might sound like a lot, but if you don't keep practising it throughout residency (and you most likely wouldn't in any of the above fields), then once you've finished and are licensed to hang up a shingle and start practising some 2-5 years after med school graduation, will you really feel comfortable using it? More to the point, will you be getting paid to use it? And perhaps even more importantly, will there be good evidence that it works?

 

As for the "whole person" approach, I really think that depends more on the individual learning the medicine, and also the influence of the specialty. It's a cop-out to say that non-osteopathic medical schools don't treat the whole person. I haven't met many clinicians around here that just try to alleviate the symptoms of a disease without first looking for the root cause of the disease to see if that can be treated.

 

Also, holistic principles simply don't apply to many specialties with limited, or short-term patient care. eg. Rads, Path, Emerg. They also are unlikely to apply in many high-volume procedural-type practices. eg. Derm, Ophtho, ENT, Plastics, some internal meds subspecialties like interventional cardiology or gastroenterology.

 

As a result, I don't see much advantage gained going to a DO school versus an MD school. I do however think that an education gained in North America is going to be superior to one gained in some of the lower-quality foreign medical schools such as those in the Caribbean or in Mexico, which take in a large number of North American students each year. Given a choice between going there or to a DO school, I think DO all the way. However, if you wish to do a Canadian residency, getting into an MD school here should be your first priority.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest cali]

Since the DO title is from the US, what are the chances of getting a residency position in Canada and practicing in Canada? Can DOs even apply to CaRMS?

[Guest Jim]

No, the way I understand it if you go the DO route, you are committing to doing a residency in the states. And if you want to be treated as a physician and not an 'osteopath' with restrictions, you are committing to practicing in the US also.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Here's some further information that I dug up regarding osteopathic physicians. Here a quote from the article, as well as the URL:

 

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> Other Professional Occupations in Health Diagnosing and Treating<!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->

cnp2001noc.worklogic.com/e/groups/3123.shtml

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr>

Osteopaths may obtain a licence as general practitioners. Osteopaths have full scope of practice in New Brunswick, Quebec and Alberta, and limited scope of practice (to practise osteopathic manipulative medicine) in Ontario and Saskatchewan. There are two licences in British Columbia - one allows the doctor of osteopathy full scope of practice rights, while the other limits practice to osteopathic manipulative medicine. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

[Guest UNCchapel hill]

If you do a DO instead of an MD, forget about anything but Family Med/Rural Med, and forget about going to a good center. Although DOs have great training, you will be limited after graduation. I hate to say it but in terms of residency picks, you will be left with very few choices.

[Guest Beaver]

Is this true? I have read about alot of cosmetic surgeons that came from DO schools and then completed their residency in plastics, however they could have graduated a long time ago when things may have been different

[Guest Thewonderer]

According to some info on SDN forum, Canadian citizens graduating from US med schools are eligible to enter 1st-round in CaRMS. Apparently, a Canadian called up the CaRMS office for that info. I am not too sure about the validity, however.

 

I personally think that DO is a great degree. I think that the difference between DO and MD is overblown. DO's do enter surgery and other specialities, albeit harder. But they should still be better than going down to the Carribean for that elusive "MD." If you work hard, many things are obtainable, but just make sure you explore all the options beforehand. I would pick MD program above DO program. But if you apply for 2+ years and DO is the only one you get in, go for it! You will be a "medical" doctor in the end.

[Guest UNCchapel hill]

I think the last message posted is correct in that the DO training is excellent, and offers better chances than doing your MD on the islands, but if you choose the DO over the MD there is a larger bias of primary care. One of my good friends is a DO grad from Michigan State (an excellent school), he told me that very few of his classmates even consider a surgical subspecialty, since their training is based more on primary care. They have the option to take the USMLE for allopathic students, this is a good way to get into subspecialties.

[Guest ATM]

Not for anything, but there are a lot of us out there who do see a major difference between

DO's and MD's. I don't plan on opening that door right now, but there is another issue that needs

to be addressed. If you only wish to apply to an osteopathic institution because you can not get into an allopathic school, then osteopathic medicine is not for you. There are not many true osteopaths practicing out there right now, but you will see osteopathy blossom in the 21st century. Apply to an osteopathic school because you believe in the philosophy, the art, the science, and the holistic healing approach of osteopathy... not because you can't get into an allopathic school. What we need are true osteopaths... not some pseudo-MD with a D.O. behind his/her name. To learn more about what I'm trying to say, read Dr. Robert Fulford's (D.O.) book, TOUCH OF LIFE. There you will learn that a true osteopath is uncomparable to an allopathic physician. So please... do your homework... understand exactly what an osteopath is (or should be)... and don't apply to an osteopathic school because its your second choice. Do it because you want to practice osteopathy in its pure form. Thank you... and Good Luck!

[Guest Thewonderer]

DO could be different or could be the same as MD... it all depends on the practitioner. If you go through DO training and in the end, throw away all the OMT's and all the DO philosophy, then you might not be a true DO but will still be a medical doctor able to prescribe medicine.

 

DO schools do accept applicants who are rejected by MD schools. and they do in the end matriculate at these DO school.

 

It is certainly very frustrating for DO supporters to see that happening. But in the reality of today's application word, if you want the best chance to practice medicine in the US, you are better off going DO route than any internationanl MD programs. And that's why I would advice applicants who want MD but might not get in to apply to the DO schools as well.

 

Honestly, I am just being a realist and try to give the best advice in terms of being able to practice in the US (with Canada questionable). So even though I do understand the DO purists' frustration, telling people not to apply to DO schools is not a sound advice.

[Guest ATM]

I understand that many students may see the osteopathic path as an alternative route, but there are also many who see it as the primary route... the only way. The problem is that those who are only applying to a DO school because they cannot get into their allopathic institution of choice, are taking up space that should be for those students who wish to study and practice true osteopathy. It is good to see, however, that a lot of the osteopathic schools are quite knowledgable about these students who view D.O. as the second rate/alternative choice. And the Reality of it is, that these schools want students who wish to practice True osteopathy. They do not want the "its my second choice" type of students. Yes, in the past there wasn't much concern for this, but now, more so than ever, osteopathic institutions want students who will take pride in the philosophy, practice, art, and science of osteopathic healing. DON"T EXPECT TO GET INTO AN OSTEOPATHIC SCHOOL WITHOUT A DEEP UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT OSTEOPATHY IS, HOW IT STARTED, AND HOW IT IS GOING TO CHANGE THE FACE OF HEALTHCARE. And while some may think that it is a good idea to apply to an osteopathic school because one can not get into an allopathic institution, there are plenty of admissions personal, at osteopathic schools, who see such a student as a second choice for their school. So when its your second choice, you also BECOME a second choice... And thats no joke. So do what you have to do... but regardless of which route one may take to become a practitioner, what we need are those who want to be doctors so that they can help people, touch people, talk to them, listen to them, etc. Today, there are too many students (and doctors alike) who are driven by their materialistic or socio-economic desires. Do not apply to school because you want to make a lot of money, a nice house and car... or because you yearn for some status associated with becoming a doctor. (There are enough doctors like that world... we sure don't need anymore like that.) Do it because you want to help your world... not your bank account... or you status-quo. BE REAL!

[Guest Osteo researcher]

I have to reply to clear up some confusion regarding osteopathic medicine. Though some of this will be just my opinion.

There is a big difference, when considering going for the DO degree, between wanting to stay in the states and hoping to move back to Canada. In the US DO's can do all specialties, not just primary care, there DO's in MD residencies in most specialties except for the most competetive ones, and there are also osteopathic specialties in emerg, ortho, etc.

While it is true US medical grads can participate in the match in Canada, DO's aren't included in this. As far as the Canadian system goes, DO's are foreign grads. This makes it difficult to come to Canada!

I don't agree that people rejected from Allopathic schools should not apply to osteopathic schools. The different 'philosophy' is overstated in my opinion. You will, however, have to convince the admissions committee that you are really keen for what the DO school provides and know what it means to be a DO. You also have to be comfortable with having the DO designation, as there is some stigma even in the states, esp west coast.

I think if you are wanting to be a physician and want to stay in the states, and aren't paranoid about having DO instead of MD after your name, go for it. You will have almost every opportunity as a US MD student in your career.

[Guest ExPat]

Ian, your information re: CaRMS matching is not quite accurate.

 

Direct from the CaRMS website:

 

"U.S. Medical Students starting their final year at an accredited medical school will be considered in some provinces for the First Iteration, providing they are a Canadian citizen or have landed immigrant status in Canada."

 

www.carms.ca/procedure/us_index.htm

 

Check it out for yourself. As stated, it depends on the province, however there is still the possibility. I cannot comment on the relevance to DO's however.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Hi ExPat,

 

I agree with your link. That page that you quoted is new; the CaRMS site has just been re-vamped, and the previous site listed this, under the Eligibility requirement:

 

www.carms.ca/policies/policy_index.htm#Eligibility

 

"A single match in two iterations will take place. The first iteration will include only graduates of Canadian medical schools who have had no previous post-M.D. clinical training."

 

It has been brought up earlier in these forums that it is possible for American med school graduates to enter the first round of CaRMS, but this was in direct contradiction to the above Eligibility policy. I think it likely is, as you've alluded to, variable depending on the province and the program directors of each specialty. I think the best course of action for each individual in a US school wishing to match in Canada is to contact the program directors of the specialties they are interested in, and check whether those program directors accept applications from US grads.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest ATM]

The only reason why one may believe that the differences in the philosophy of osteopathic medicine (as compared to allopathic medicine) is "overstated" is that he or she has not truely grasped the central themes to this great medicine. I can understand why one would not be able to do so also. How can one see the difference when most of the D.O.'s practicing in this nation have abandoned (or never really understood nor learned) the path set by Dr. Andrew Taylor Still? The reason why many do not see a considerable difference between osteopathic medicine and its counterparts is that there have not been many true osteopaths in practice. Since there are only a handful, the public (doctors and patients alike) has not been exposed to, or have not yet experienced just what the philosophy, art, and science of osteopathy truely entail. You say that the difference is overstated, because you have not experienced the difference YET... and I stress the yet part. I keep hearing people refer to the "philosophy" of osteopathic medicine. The philosophy is just the beginning of the difference... for what good is a philosophy if its practice is not followed. So, there is big difference in the philosophy, but even more so in the practice of the philosophy. The only problem is that not many have really seen it in action. When you do... when the world does... medicine will change. I can assure you of that. You better buckle up ladies and gentlemen, cause we're all going for a ride. For those who wish to hold on to this belief that osteopathy is not very much different than allopathic medicine... well, soon you are going to see and hear of, and experience (if you so please) the difference.

One more thing... off the subject a bit... when true osteopathy thrives... treatment will be extremely cheap... and when people see it work... they will abandon the expensive medicine of today... as well as the rest of the money hungry industries that ride the back of medicine (e.g. pharmaceutical, insurance, etc.). So as I said earlier... HOLD ON... WE'RE GOIN' FOR A RIDE. peace

[Guest Ian Wong]

The above link that I posted has gone dead, and below are two links which contain similar information:

 

Human Resources and Development Canada Information:

www23.hrdc-drhc.gc.ca/2001/e/groups/3123.shtml

 

British Columbia Occupational Outlooks Information:

www.workfutures.bc.ca/EN/def/occs/3123_e1.html

 

The most relevant part of the first website is the following set of statements:

Osteopaths may obtain a licence as general practitioners.

Osteopaths have full scope of practice in New Brunswick, Quebec and Alberta, and limited scope of practice (to practise osteopathic manipulative medicine) in Ontario and Saskatchewan.

 

There are two licences in British Columbia - one allows the doctor of osteopathy full scope of practice rights, while the other limits practice to osteopathic manipulative medicine.

Ian

UBC, Med 4