Gavanshir Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Hello, I have recently applied to a research lab of a prominent doctor for a summer position. Do you think that it is justifiable to lie if he asks what you are planning to do after your B.Sc. by saying that you will be staying in the field and probably seeking graduate studies instead of saying the truth: that you will be applying for medicine? I don't like to deceive people and like to be honest about everything from the getgo but at the same time I can't help but think that he will probably not want to hire someone who he knows is mainly doing research to have it on his medschool application. Thanks for any insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMmd Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 probably, especially if you are going to ask him for a reference letter after. also you shouldnt do research just so you can put it on your cv... you should be interested in it.. else you are wasting everyones time and money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuantum Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Generally speaking, you should try not to lie. In this particular situation, since you will likely want a letter of reference from this person attesting to your character, you will probably not to start off by lying to him. Research is sort of becoming a requirement for med. school (sort of like volunteering and ECs are requirements). They aren't actual requirement, however, so many people have it that if you don't, people start to wonder. You should let this pressure you into research if you have no interest in it at all, however, I think doing the research purely to use it as a means is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBCGuy Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Don't lie. Personally I don't think anything worth having is worth being dishonest for. But that is just me. There are certain times when "white" lies are neccessary (ie when you friend gets a rediculous hair cut and he asks you if it really THAT bad, of course you are going to make the situation sound a bit better than it is), I don't think this is one of those cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavanshir Posted December 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Well I don't know if I can even take into consideration that he will be writing me an LOR in the future if in the short term, by telling him that I will be applying for med I am reducing my chances of ever even working with him by a good amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachy Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Well I don't know if I can even take into consideration that he will be writing me an LOR in the future if in the short term, by telling him that I will be applying for med I am reducing my chances of ever even working with him by a good amount.Besides the fact that you shouldn't lie to him, you're really not doing yourself any favors. I guarantee you that if you outright tell a summer supervisor that you aren't interested in medicine, and then you turn around and apply, it's going to work out badly for you. Not only will you get a bad letter from him, but he will think poorly of you in general, you're going to get a bad reputation in the lab, etc. You never know who he will tell that you lied to him. Seriously, if a particular researcher really hate premeds that much (and there are, indeed, PI's that feel that way), then you don't want to be in that lab. Go find another lab with a supervisor who will be supportive of your career goals. Keep in mind, also, that a good portion (probably the majority) of good undergraduate life science students looking for summer research positions will be premed. Of course, that doesn't mean that you should go into your interview and say "Yeah, I am really just doing this to look good on my medical school application!" There's nothing wrong with emphasizing your love for research in your application as long as you don't lie about your medical school goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkles Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 I had an advisor/counsellor at school tell me that MOST students lie about volunteer and EC's to get into med. Her honest opinion was that you pretty much have to......she doesn't like it but that's the way it is. So although I wouldn't encourage lying you may have to in the future on your application anyways....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackers Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 You want to go to medical school. Laudable goal. What's your backup plan? Not everyone is successful in their applications out of undergrad (I wasn't), and grad school is a good backup plan for those who are committed to the sciences because a B.Sc. does not open up the same job prospects as a Master's or doctorate. If you could say without a lying bone in your body that you're going to apply to med school and grad school, that might get you off the horns of your dilemma. But if you aren't even going to consider grad school, your honesty will get you an answer quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Law Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 I agree with the posts so far. Do not lie. If the person hates premed students, then you're going to have a tough time getting a reference letter for med school regardless. There is nothing wrong with wanting to go to med school. Personally, if the researcher hates people who are interested in med school that much, then I really wouldn't want to be working in their lab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daryn Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 I agree. Don't lie. I think when they ask you that question, they genuinely are interested, that's all. But do let me emphasize that many people do get into medical school without any research experience, so don't think that you have to do this. You want to get the summer position because you are interested in the project, period. Besides, this person is an MD. He of all people should know about the idea of blending research into a clinical career. Personally, my supervisor is very supportive of me, thankfully. I never did lie. When he interviewed me I simply told him that I was still deciding, and that hopefully my experiences would help me make that decision. If I don't get into medical school this year, he wants me back to do a MSc with him. But yes, never lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muchdutch Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 I had an advisor/counsellor at school tell me that MOST students lie about volunteer and EC's to get into med. Her honest opinion was that you pretty much have to......she doesn't like it but that's the way it is. So although I wouldn't encourage lying you may have to in the future on your application anyways....... And here I was telling the truth on my applications - thinking that honesty and trust would be admirable in a physician. How wrong I was. I'm probably not even in the same league as most others!!! *dreams shattered* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkles Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 And here I was telling the truth on my applications - thinking that honesty and trust would be admirable in a physician. How wrong I was. I'm probably not even in the same league as most others!!! *dreams shattered* Did you get accepted? Believe me.....this has been on my mind ever since I found out also! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Law Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 I know that I won't be lying about them when I apply. I'm going to be hoping for the best, but really... I want to earn this myself. If I faked things and got in, I wouldn't feel right. To me lying just seems so desperate. If they lie, well then, good for them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahZ Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 daryn's right if you are interested in the work, tell him that. I don't see how it could put you at a disadvantage to say you are interested in both research and medicine. Noone can say for certain they want to do graduate work without research experience.....I started my research year super keen, when I got in the lab I loved working with patients, still super keen, when I had to spend 4 months on data analysysis and rewriting a paper a zillion times...not so keen. So for someone with no research experience to say they want to do graduate work is as naive as someone to say they know for certain they want to be a doctor without any previous exposure to sick people. Did you get accepted? Believe me.....this has been on my mind ever since I found out also! As a current applicant, not only is it unethical but it would be a huge risk to lie about anything, you are required to put a reference/verifier for every activity. However I do think that people try to pump up what they do do in their essays,..I don't think this is unethical, merely selling oneself. I doubt many people lie, and if a few people get in that do, whats the point in thinking about it, i certainly don't think the majority do! Sometimes academic adivisors aren't the best resource, mine tried to tell me that if I didn't take biochemistry I couldn't go to medical school,...and I live in the maritimes where there are no course prerequisites, and biochem isn't needed for the mcat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfette Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 And here I was telling the truth on my applications - thinking that honesty and trust would be admirable in a physician. How wrong I was. I'm probably not even in the same league as most others!!! *dreams shattered* Hello! Don't worry - my application's all true too. (Except that part where I wrote that I saved 25 helpless babies from a terrible fire...j/j ). I really don't think it requires lying to get into medical school. It's true that it is competitive, but there are also over a thousand people who get into Canadian med schools each year. I think if you are a solid applicant without any gaping holes in your application (eg. a poor GPA, no major volunteer work, no basic interview skills), you have a good chance of making it. It's not worth it to lie. You are going into a profession where honesty and trust are important above all else. What kind of a way is it to start your career by lying on your application? *Think about it* Anyways...about the original question. I agree with the other posters. (1) You said that your proposed supervisor is a physician - he's probably more sympathetic to medical school than you think. I find that people don't really hate premeds per say - what people don't like are those premeds who just want to do things to put it on their resume without any actual interest in their work. They might have had a student or two who got the job, then spent the whole summer goofing off because they already had a bullet-point to stick on their application. Show a genuine interest in the work and a little bit of humility and you'll probably be fine. (2) If you lie, you will not be able to get a reference letter from him. (3) You should be interested in their work. Don't waste your time if you're not. You might think it'll add something to your resume, but in the long-run it won't be as good as you think it will be - wait till you go to interviews and they ask you to tell them about your research: "well I ran some electrophoresis gels for a grad student cuz I didn't know anything and wasn't really interested in working on a project of my own". Unless you're interested and are willing to put the work in to your project, don't bother. (4) Feel free to tell him/her that you are interested in their work and that you're excited to do research, but don't lie about your future career goals. Note: you do not have to tell them about your career goals unless they ask, but don't lie (or strongly imply to the contrary) about it. (5) There are supervisors that will be willing to accept you knowing that you are interested in medical school, provided that you are interested in actually working/learning in their lab (not just wasting time their cuz it's adding something to your resume). If research doesn't work out in your early undergrad years, don't worry. Most of the time it's not very fruitful research anyways because you don't know enough to do anything significant. If you're desperate for research later on, you can always do an honour's thesis or a directed studies course. You'll get your "research experience". Most supervisors are willing to accept these students because they know you'll work hard (it's a course - you're marked on it!) and they don't have to pay you. Good luck, Smurfette P.S. I realize that it's hard to stick up for your principles when it seems that "everyone is doing it" but hang in there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muchdutch Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Did you get accepted? Believe me.....this has been on my mind ever since I found out also! Nope. Not last year. And this year I improved on a few things, but certainly didn't lie about anything - I fear the same fate will befall me! SarahZ - I agree that it's not worth the lie because you have to have verifiers out there for everything you do, but how easy would it be to get someone to lie for you? A lot of people just don't give a crap these days about honesty and integrity. In fact, I know of a person who used their family members (ex - aunt's with different last names) to verify for a bunch of stuff they did but that they didn't do with their aunts (ex - triathalon training, etc.) They got in. I wouldn't really call that all that ethical - just because I say I do something doesn't mean I expect anyone to confirm it, excepting the people who do it with me. I agree with The Law about not lying - I want to do this on my own merit. It just seems unfathomable that 'most' people might actually lie their way in. It's such an unfair advantage they have over those who actually honestly earn their place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 I wouldn't lie - I'm gonna bet that the chances of him finding out are high - you've probably told quite a few people at this point that you're applying to meds, and what if he's having coffee with one of those people, and mentions that you work in his lab, and then the other person is like "Oh, yeah, I know him, great student, gunning for medical school!" And *pop* goes the bubble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavanshir Posted December 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Hi, well I sent the email this morning and didn't lie. This is what I said: I'm looking towards applying to medical school with graduate studes as my second option. Thanks for all your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMmd Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 good job. we are proud of you! is he an MD or PhD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavanshir Posted December 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 He is a world reknown MD! I won't say more just incase he ever sees it. The internet can be scary.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
007 Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 And here I was telling the truth on my applications - thinking that honesty and trust would be admirable in a physician. How wrong I was. I'm probably not even in the same league as most others!!! *dreams shattered* I didn't lie on my applications and I got in. Keep in mind that many schools have your application (or at least the activities portion of it) in the interview and will ask you to describe certain aspects of it and how it affected you etc so having padded your application with activities you didn't do or didn't do to the extent you say, isn't going to be helpful then. On another note, good job on being honest to the person you're applying to, Gavanshir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ans Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Keep in mind that many schools have your application (or at least the activities portion of it) in the interview and will ask you to describe certain aspects of it and how it affected you etc so having padded your application with activities you didn't do or didn't do to the extent you say, isn't going to be helpful then. . Exactly- if someone lies on their application it will become apparent in their interview when they can't give a good description of what they did in an activity or have good examples to back up what they are saying. I think lying on your application would be to your disadvantage because the interviewers will see right through you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 I wouldn't say "research as a second option". It really isn't lying if you just say, "I haven't completely decided yet, but medicine and research are both options that I'm considering." Especially if you're only in first or second year, it's perfectly reasonable not to be hard-set on anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Law Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 Exactly- if someone lies on their application it will become apparent in their interview when they can't give a good description of what they did in an activity or have good examples to back up what they are saying. I think lying on your application would be to your disadvantage because the interviewers will see right through you. Some people can just lie through their teeth though. One of my teachers told me of a student who entirely faked having a managerial position at this company that him and a friend made up. It was really sickening to hear it. He did end up getting into UofT though. He came back to tell my prof about how he faked one of his EC activities and my prof got really mad... and the guy was like "well you gotta do what you gotta do"... and my prof just kicked him out of his office (since he was one of his references). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirsteen Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 I wouldn't say "research as a second option". It really isn't lying if you just say, "I haven't completely decided yet, but medicine and research are both options that I'm considering." Especially if you're only in first or second year, it's perfectly reasonable not to be hard-set on anything. Hmmm, I'm not so sure about this response. When I was interviewed a few years ago for the various medical schools I had already received an acceptance to a PhD program for that fall. When asked about my back-up plan, I mentioned this pretty straightforwardly. At the same time, however, I affirmed that, even though I hoped to continue with research throughout medical school and beyond, between the two, a medical education at that time was the higher of my priorities. Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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