Lying about future prospects for research position..

[Sparkles]

OK. I went and asked med students.....only 5....today if they lied and they all did. One guy added extra EC's and the other 4 lied about volunteer work. Now I'm beyond disturbed. They all said they didn't have enough extras if they didn't.

 

 

A girl said to me that she spent so much time on getting a 3.9 GPA she had no time for other activities besides the summer time. For references she used friends.

 

Again.....

 

In the future I'll bring up a post about this again but since I'm only in first year I'm going to volunteer as much as I can. Because of this thread I phoned operation red nose, Edmonton food bank and a program to help seniors shovel snow off their walks. I want to be honest and get in as much volunteer work as much as possible.

[avenir001]

OK. I went and asked med students.....only 5....today if they lied and they all did.

 

I'm very moved by these liars' honesty about having lied on their applications:D

[Sparkles]

I'm very moved by these liars' honesty about having lied on their applications:D

Yeah.....and I would have asked more but I only know these 5.

 

They were little white lies as the girl put it. Not harmful. And one guy only lied about 2 extra volunteer things. I met up with these people in the summer....I was interviewing med students....tell you about that later.

 

They are great people and I feel they should be where they are. Perhaps this 5 is not the norm?

 

I'm getting the feeling alot more people lie than we think.

 

I think I'm going to ask some of them to come on these forums.....maybe we can get their point of view!!

[Jochi1543]

I have tons of REAL stuff on my CV....no need to lie.

 

Jus' keepin' it REAL here.

 

[AMmd]

but then again ECs dont count that much...

if that person had 2.9 GPA (instead of 3.9) and had real ECs... she wouldnt even be considered... so its always the marks that are looked at first. (because they cant be falcified:confused: )

 

... however, lying is bad...

[haiku_guy]

All this "lying" discussion really pisses me off.

 

Although I imagine that a fair number of applicants exaggerate the number of hours etc on EC's, I can't believe that people would make up whole new ones.

 

I guess my integrity just balks at this, and makes me run screaming for the door.

 

No wonder it's impossible for so many good, honest applicants to get in. This makes me sick. Maybe they should also have a polygraph test to get in as well. They do that when you apply to be a cop.

 

That's it, I'm writing my MP again about the number of spots in medical schools in this country.

 

Geesh...

[TimmyMax]

Hey,

 

I'd also like to chime in and say that I never lied about anything on my application back when I was going through. I guess the times have changed a lot since then!

I agree on the mandatory polygraph test- a few of my classmates wouldn't have passed for certain!

[AMmd]

Maybe they should also have a polygraph test to get in as well.

That's it, I'm writing my MP again about the number of spots in medical schools in this country.

hahaha polygraph.. that is funny...

good for you i think we should all pressure the government especially now that is unstable to increase the number of spots available for med students!

who's with me?

People have the power! (Im serious btw)

[haiku_guy]

People have the power!

 

Power to the people!

 

Write your MP!

 

Write the political parties!

 

Write your MLA!

 

Write your town/city council!

 

Write your mom

[Jochi1543]

 

Write your mom

LOL! "Everything i$ going well...But I'm getting a little $tre$$ed with exam$....."

[muchdutch]

Yeah.....and I would have asked more but I only know these 5.

 

They were little white lies as the girl put it. Not harmful. And one guy only lied about 2 extra volunteer things. I met up with these people in the summer....I was interviewing med students....tell you about that later.

 

They are great people and I feel they should be where they are. Perhaps this 5 is not the norm?

 

I'm getting the feeling alot more people lie than we think.

 

I think I'm going to ask some of them to come on these forums.....maybe we can get their point of view!!

 

Yeah - 5/5 have lied, them's pretty high odds. Hmm, stats majors? The chances of asking 5 random students and getting 100% confirmation by chance alone would be..... something small (my brain hurts!).

Sure, they say that they are 'little white lies' but it is a very slippery slope that they may travel - little white lies to get into med school, larger white lies for CARMS, full-blown lies while in residency... When does it end?

 

That is pretty disappointing though....

 

I agree with you Haikuguy - polygraph is a good idea. My sister-in-law just got into the police and she said this was the most nerve-wracking part of the whole process. One must consider that while students would be nervous for interviews, think of how nervous they'd be for this? Also, they're not 100% accurate, but it may be the only option to 'weed out' the liars who lie through their teeth or use their friends as references as previously mentioned.

[Jochi1543]

Also, they're not 100% accurate, but it may be the only option to 'weed out' the liars who lie through their teeth or use their friends as references as previously mentioned.

I think a questionable polygraph score shouldn't exactly be grounds to tossing out the application entirely; in my opinion, it should just lead to a 2nd, more careful screening of the app w/ phone calls and such. So people who just get nervous and mess up wouldn't suffer.

[muchdutch]

Some people can just lie through their teeth though.

One of my teachers told me of a student who entirely faked having a managerial position at this company that him and a friend made up. It was really sickening to hear it. He did end up getting into UofT though. He came back to tell my prof about how he faked one of his EC activities and my prof got really mad... and the guy was like "well you gotta do what you gotta do"... and my prof just kicked him out of his office (since he was one of his references).

 

I was talking about this with my 'other' yesterday. I think you're right and some people just can lie extremely well. If you think about it, if you say you go and volunteer in a 3rd world country and people ask you about it, you can pretty much guess what an answer of someone who actually did it would be "It was a big adjustment, it made me realize what's important, it was very eye opening, it secured my decision for medicine, it made me realize how lucky we are in Canada, blah, blah, blah". And if you're a really good liar, you could probably go on to say "I formed a really great relationship with a 6 year old orphan boy named !bile (throw out to all you Russell Peters fans...) who had AIDs and blah, blah, blah". IF you have the confidence to believe it's correct yourself, then you could get away with it.

 

I was also saying how karma is such a bitc& - IF I were to lie on my application, I would without a doubt be called on it, and I don't have the confidence to lie about anything and get away with it - never have, and probably never will. But that means that I probably won't be called on the stuff that is true. That seems to be my relationship with karma.

[haiku_guy]

I think that this goes straight to the heart of a major question. Are we getting better applicants as requirements get more stringent?

 

I personally have serious concerns that the increasing requirements are starting to have a negative effect. This thread tells me that it is becoming so competitive that fewer and fewer people are actually able do all the required things and still get in. Get a 4.0 GPA, volunteer an obscene number of hours, travel, excel at the MCAT, research, save a baby from a burning building while simultaneously bathing lepers and curing AIDS.... Not only that, but we are losing top-notch university-educated people to foreign countries simply because we lack infrastructure here to train them in their (admittedly lofty) career goal.

 

Are we going to end up with doctors that are simply robots, who work, work, work and don't remember how to play? Are we also going to end up with physicians who are willing to do something totally unethical in order to get ahead. It appears so. Would you want to be in a clinical trial run by someone who lied to get into medical school? I think not.

 

The point is: Write your MP, tell your neighbors, rant and rave about how you, the 4.0 student who did research, volunteered and got a 45T MCAT still can't get into a Canadian med school because someone else lied on their application.

 

Anyway, I'm off to save babies from burning buildings while simeultaneously bathing lepers and curing AIDS.

 

Geesh...again...

[SarahZ]

Wow Sparkles , that news disturbs me.....my EC involvement exists and I was honest but its not outstanding, so maybe I am effed lol

[Gavanshir]

I probably shouldn't say this but I don't think there is any problem with a little lie here and there. As long as nobody gets hurt, you should do whatever you can to get ahead. It's really a jungle out there and there is no point in being super idealistic in the process. Again, as long as no one gets hurt and you reach your goals, and you don't get caught. My uncle made up a green card number on his med school application because he wasn't a US resident back then, well look at him now... one of the top cardiologists in nyc/nj area. I've learned that you'll just get screwed by the next man if you don't use some tricks of your own.

[Smurfette]

A girl said to me that she spent so much time on getting a 3.9 GPA she had no time for other activities besides the summer time. For references she used friends.

 

I do NOT think it is impossible to do well in school AND to actually do volunteer work or extracurricular activities. Barring any serious academic difficulties, if you spend a *serious* (goofing off and reading the forums or msn-ing does not count) 1 hour out of class studying for every hour you spend in class, you can do well (I mean A- to A+ well). This is my experience from undergrad. For a standard full course-load you have around 15 hours of class, therefore if you spend 15 hours outside of class, then you should be fine.

 

# waking hours > 100 (wake up: 8am, sleep at 11pm)

School time = 30 (15 in class, 15 out of class)

Eating, shower, etc = 20

Transportation = 5

 

Do the math: 100-30-20-10=40. You have 40 hours a week at your leisure to hang out with friends, go to the gym, AND to do volunteer work or extracurricular activities. That's enough time for a full-time job.

 

It's just about good time-management.

 

Don't you think you'd feel a lot better about yourself if you managed your time well and in the process, accomplished a lot of different things and gained new experiences RATHER THAN spending your time thinking of stories that you could lie about?

[TonesRN]

And if you're a really good liar, you could probably go on to say "I formed a really great relationship with a 6 year old orphan boy named !bile (throw out to all you Russell Peters fans...)

 

I'm a HUGE Russell Peters fan, and the correct spelling is !xobile. Now we wouldn't want to upset the little African orphan boy by misspelling his name now, would we?

[TonesRN]

I probably shouldn't say this but I don't think there is any problem with a little lie here and there. As long as nobody gets hurt, you should do whatever you can to get ahead. It's really a jungle out there and there is no point in being super idealistic in the process. Again, as long as no one gets hurt and you reach your goals, and you don't get caught. My uncle made up a green card number on his med school application because he wasn't a US resident back then, well look at him now... one of the top cardiologists in nyc/nj area. I've learned that you'll just get screwed by the next man if you don't use some tricks of your own.

 

I do agree with you. Theoretically, its always great for people to strive to be completely altruistic and 'holier than thou', but in the real world, we sometimes have to bend the rules in order to get ahead. People tell these 'little lies' all of the time. Whether it's saying all of the right things in a job interview (whether it's true or not) or not completely being yourself on a first date (to impress your partner), people fabricate their motives all of the time to place themselves in a more advantageous position.

 

That being said, I did not lie about my EC's, but I'm not at all surprised about the applicants who do. There is, and will always be, a discrepancy about what should be done and what will be done. We live in a competitive world and sometime people will do 'whatever it takes' to reach their goal.

[TimmyMax]

Hey,

 

I think that a lot of it has to do with the greater number of applicants and the greater volume of information out there about the so-called "formula" that makes for a generally successful medical school candidate (good GPA, good MCAT, good ECs, volunteer work, research, etc.). Thanks to forums such as this one (which were in their infancy back when I was going through) plus the increased media coverage to doctor shortages plus more people interested in applying (and not just passively interested) plus the heightened expectations of parents/society, there are tons of people that can fit that premed "mould" nowadays and the key is really finding that one aspect of yourself or your application that will allow you to stand out from the crowd. I'm sure that of this year's applicant pool, about 50% would be more or less indistinguishable from each other on paper and would otherwise make fine physicians. The key is looking for that extra edge that will put your application over the top.

Unfortunately, rather than doing a little more soul-searching or putting in the extra effort to make good ECs/volunteer work great, it's a lot more convenient for people to embellish and lie about things rather than put in the work. Frankly, it's more a function of the "me first", "drive through" and "quick fix" society than anything else, but still it's sad to see, even among today's current crops of medical students and residents (and even patients!).

Personally, I think that it takes away from patient care in the end, in that people seem/are only willing to go only as far as will get them what they want and no further, but that's just me. I'm sure that this will create an uproar, but frankly, I don't really care. Whatever happened to the good old days?

[muchdutch]

# waking hours > 100 (wake up: 8am, sleep at 11pm)

School time = 30 (15 in class, 15 out of class)

Eating, shower, etc = 20

Transportation = 5

 

I think this is quite a gross underestimation. I think this is much closer to what may be for those who live with their parents and who don't work, but still is quite an underestimation.

 

How many of you out there live 5 minutes from ALL of your classes. Sometimes it takes more than 5 minutes just to walk half-way across campus, nevermind if you drive (find parking, battle traffic) or take the bus. Eating takes WAY more than 20 minutes per day, especially if you can't rely on your parents doing all the cooking/cleaning/groceryshopping for you, not to mention showering etc. Also, you're negating things like doing laundry (again, if you live at home your parents may do this for you), cleaning house (NOT just cleaning your room), dishes, grocery, food prep, cooking time, cleaning up, any familial obligations you may have to aging grandparents or other extenuating circumstances etc. Also, this assumes you are in 5 classes without labs or seminars. Labs can suck up just as much time as a lecture, if not more. Not to mention having a job (transport to work, time at work, transport back, etc.). The few people I know who have managed to get stellar EC's, great GPA, good MCATs, lots of volunteer, etc. are the ones who, curiously enough, live at home, their parents do all of the cooking/cleaning/laundry, and they don't work (except maybe in the summer - and a few of those took the whole summer devoted solely to studying for the MCAT so no wonder they did well). Those who did not have 100% in all these areas are the ones who lived on their own or worked a lot of hours out of necessity, or just didn't have enough time to devote to studying for a variety of reasons.

So while I agree that time management is an important factor, sometimes it's really not as simple as previously stated.

 

Tones - my bad, certainly wouldn't want to offend little !xobile.

 

BTW, Timmy, I agree with you that people (for the most part) only seem willing to do what will get them what they want and no further. I think most everyone here can think of one or more people out there like that, including ourselves - how many of you out there are doing research not for the pure enjoyment, but for the boost it gets you into medical school? And how many of you would abandon it in a heartbeat if you were told you were accepted to a med school that starts tomorrow?

[lostintime]

Lol, out of curiosity, how many people in med school actually keep up w/ all the EC's they did in undergrad? That should be a good measure of whether they really are committed to those activities or not.

[avenir001]

Lol, out of curiosity, how many people in med school actually keep up w/ all the EC's they did in undergrad? That should be a good measure of whether they really are committed to those activities or not.

 

Maybe not...cuz once you're in med school, CaRMS is just around the corner:D

You can't run...you can't hide...EC's are here to stay for a long, long time.

[bioboy2007]

I do NOT think it is impossible to do well in school AND to actually do volunteer work or extracurricular activities. Barring any serious academic difficulties, if you spend a *serious* (goofing off and reading the forums or msn-ing does not count) 1 hour out of class studying for every hour you spend in class, you can do well (I mean A- to A+ well). This is my experience from undergrad. For a standard full course-load you have around 15 hours of class, therefore if you spend 15 hours outside of class, then you should be fine.

 

# waking hours > 100 (wake up: 8am, sleep at 11pm)

School time = 30 (15 in class, 15 out of class)

Eating, shower, etc = 20

Transportation = 5

 

Do the math: 100-30-20-10=40. You have 40 hours a week at your leisure to hang out with friends, go to the gym, AND to do volunteer work or extracurricular activities. That's enough time for a full-time job.

 

It's just about good time-management.

 

Don't you think you'd feel a lot better about yourself if you managed your time well and in the process, accomplished a lot of different things and gained new experiences RATHER THAN spending your time thinking of stories that you could lie about?

 

I agree with where you're coming from, Smurfette and I really admire if you live by such a schedule (cause I know I definitely don't!!) -- even though I disagree with your timeline, this still doesn't mean that I can't engage in meaningful and interesting EC's! Life is all about balance. Having a lot of extra time just means more time to slack off!

[Ollie]

Lol, out of curiosity, how many people in med school actually keep up w/ all the EC's they did in undergrad? That should be a good measure of whether they really are committed to those activities or not.

Well I don't, seeing as how I now live in a different city, but I have different stuff that I do now. There are tons of EC's to get involved with in med school. You would be hard pressed to find a current med student not involved in some form of EC. Residency programs like applicants who have a life outside of medicine!

 

How many of you out there live 5 minutes from ALL of your classes. Sometimes it takes more than 5 minutes just to walk half-way across campus, nevermind if you drive (find parking, battle traffic) or take the bus. Eating takes WAY more than 20 minutes per day

Um, I think she meant hours per week, not minutes per day.