Tristan Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 I was curious about what kind of marks do you need to STAY in medical school. Is there a minimum average needed in every course or a minimum cumulative average to earn your degree? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madz25 Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 just need a "P" (pass). but if you keep getting marginal passes (i.e. JUST squeaking by) then you'll be in danger of having to repeat. each school is different, is there one you were wondering about in particular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristan Posted October 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 I was curious about all of them actually. Thank you for that Info. this is very interesting to know. I thought there was a minimum mark for each course to pass to move on to the next block Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaegwon Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Well its not usually quite so clearcut. At Queen's, the listed minimum grade to pass is 60% (we have one set of exams each semester). However, if you are just scraping by, if you really bomb a certain subject, or if you are struggling in clinical skills, you may need to do some remedial work. Conversely, in some instances where extenuating circumstances are involved, students may continue on despite a failing mark (likely after having taken a repeat exam). Also, our exam questions are weighted to be worth varying amounts depending on how many people get them right and wrong. I believe this is done to minimize the impact of very easy or unreasonably hard questions and to provide an appropriate spread of marks. Therefore, getting 60% of the questions correct on the exam doesn't necessarily translate into a final mark of 60%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlatan Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 I was surprised too when someone told me that all you need is a "P" or "Pass" to stay in medical school. In my opinion, the use of a % or minimum grade system would have been be more appropiate. Seriously, I wouldn't want some guy who barely pass (eg. 60%), for instance, his/her anatomy or infectious disease exam, to be my physician. It would be pretty scary if a physician makes 40% of his/her diagonisis wrong, or botches surgeries 4 out of 10 of the time. In light of this, the pass/fail system of medical schools seems blatantly unacceptable. LoL, maybe my view is navie and simplistic, so please correct me if I am wrong. There must be some sort of advantage to the pass/fail system over the % or grade system...any med students shed some light on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agregson Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 The idea with the pass/fail system is to eliminate some of the competitiveness that is present in med school. The reality of it is that exams are often detail focused and don't necessarily reflect what you know or what is important. Just because someone can ace an exam in cardiology doesn't necessarily make them a good clinician in cardiology. The skills required to succeed in exams vs. clinical encounters aren't really the same. That being said there is often a correlation between exam performance and clinical performance, but not always. In clinical medicine it is important to know what is common and what kills people. Everything else can be looked up...unfortunately the exams aren't designed to reflect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlatan Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Yeah agregson, I was thinking along those lines too. This makes sense because for instance good surgical skills come with hands-on practice. However, if you just need 60% to pass, then having exams at med school seems pretty pointless. P.S. IMO, a competitive atmosphere is a very good motivator for growth and success, so I don't get why med schools are all against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon01 Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 P=md P=60% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuantum Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 The P/F system is used to eliminate the competition in med. school so you learn how to better work with future colleagues. To be a physician, I imagine you need a degree of independant decision making. However, you need to be a good team player as well. This involves providing and getting the necessary information from those who know it best. You need to be able to work with other professionals because this often leads to better patient care when a patient receives a more holistic treatment. Also, as a physician you need to be able to realize your own weaknesses and not be intimidated to ask for help when you need it. A P/F doesn't necessarily do this, however, it might make it easier to ask someone else when you just don't know because they aren't worried about trying to beat you. Afterall, as a future physician, your success is my success which is the patients success. We all need to be highly trained to provide what is best for the patient. For those who say there is nothing wrong with competition - I totally agree. Competition is healthy and it keeps us on our toes. However, written tests may not necessarily reflect clinical skill and the ability to translate patient language into the necessary medical jargon. It is far more important to be able to recognize what clinical symptoms a patient has, translate that into underlying pathology, and come up with the necessary diagnosis. As someone mentioned, everything you get tested on actually isn't always something you will need. Some schools have adopted the H/P/F system and that still allows for competition. But then again, how do you compare H/P/F to P/F schools when CaRMS comes around...clinical performance in 3rd and 4th year (i've heard) tend to be more important than academic performance in 1st and 2nd year. This is not to say you shouldn't try or nor is it an excuse to slack because the first two years (at my school at least) are designed to be the basis for the rest of medicine. It's like learning words before you start forming sentences - if you don't know what the words mean, you can't make coherent sentences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaegwon Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Medical schools are against cultivating an ultra-competitive environment for good reason! It makes for a horrible learning environment. Its really not essential to know everything in medicine by the end of year two (in fact, its impossible). That's why the 60% argument isn't a good one. Exams are important. They are designed to provide some spread in the class and identify those who excel (so that its not like an elementary school track meet - everyone gets a participation medal , and also to ensure that people who clearly aren't succeeding can be identified. The actual percent score is really arbitrary...would it be more reassuring to have really easy exams on which everyone scored 90+%? I don't think it would. Also, even with an H/P/F system, there are no shortage of reasons to try hard. If someone needs the external motivation of competing for marks on top of everything else, perhaps they are in the wrong profession. One needs to continue to be motivated long after medical school to be a good doctor. However, everyone in medicine is pretty smart, and is used to being near the top of the class...obviously, not everyone can be in medical school. Therefore, promoting a really competitive atmosphere might promote more memorization of details in the short term, but at what expense? The primary function of the pre-clinical years are to ensure everyone has a knowledge base that they can build upon during clinical training. I don't think that this end is served by forcing students to sacrifice balance in their lives for an extra few points on exams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madz25 Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 I was curious about all of them actually.Thank you for that Info. this is very interesting to know. I thought there was a minimum mark for each course to pass to move on to the next block Like someone already mentioned, it's not QUITE so clear cut. But in response to your question, there's no minimum average you're required to keep. In order to move on to the next unit/block, you have to cross that "P" line, so I guess that is the minimum mark? Remember though, med schools DONT let you just scrape by every time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon01 Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 I was surprised too when someone told me that all you need is a "P" or "Pass" to stay in medical school. In my opinion, the use of a % or minimum grade system would have been be more appropiate. Seriously, I wouldn't want some guy who barely pass (eg. 60%), for instance, his/her anatomy or infectious disease exam, to be my physician. It would be pretty scary if a physician makes 40% of his/her diagonisis wrong, or botches surgeries 4 out of 10 of the time. In light of this, the pass/fail system of medical schools seems blatantly unacceptable. LoL, maybe my view is navie and simplistic, so please correct me if I am wrong. There must be some sort of advantage to the pass/fail system over the % or grade system...any med students shed some light on this? Maybe your GP/surgeon/etc barely passed his classes or had to repeat some in the summer. How would you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
optimist Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 At NOSM, our pass grade is 75% for each theme. There are 5 themes and you need to have a 75% on each of them by the end of the year, over the course of 6 End-Module Assessments (aka exams). On a section with 10 questions, if you get 3 wrong you fail. But as long as you have a 75% on that section by the end of the year, you're okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughboy Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Seriously, I wouldn't want some guy who barely pass (eg. 60%), for instance, his/her anatomy or infectious disease exam, to be my physician. It would be pretty scary if a physician makes 40% of his/her diagonisis wrong, or botches surgeries 4 out of 10 of the time. In light of this, the pass/fail system of medical schools seems blatantly unacceptable. As others have said, P/F systems are designed to reduce intra-class competition and produce a more collegial atmosphere among students in preparation for practice (where being an uber-competitive jerk is generally a bad thing). Anybody smart enough to get into med school in Canada has enough brains and motivation to get out with an MD. It's one of the few good side-effects of the overly competitive application process. As well, doing well on a mcq test of random trivia is probably not a good indicator of clinical competence. Re: diagnostic accuracy. I wouldn't be surprised if there's literature out there showing that there's a significant difference between initial and final diagnoses, especially for "treat everybody who walks/rolls through the door" specialties like FM & ER (or even GIM). That's why you have a differential that changes as you work the patient up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 The reality of any teaching situation is someone is always going to be at the bottom of the class. Whether that person has a 65% listed on their transcript or that person has a P, they're still going to be in the same place in the class. The PO/P/F system just keeps people from competing (and therefore hurting relationships and burning out) for an 87 vs. an 85. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristan Posted October 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 thanks for all the information! this has certainly given me some great insight into medical school. my next question is kind of related...i was wondering about the marks in the first place...because i was really wondering how many from the start of class actually finish and graduate? I was assuming that probably a very low percentage actually finish and graduate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 Once your're in med school, usually you finish. There are a few exceptions (2-3 per class I would estimate? It really depends on the school though), but I think most who don't finish quit, people don't usually flunk out. The schools work really hard to select motivated, capable individuals, and they loose much $ if you don't graduate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristan Posted October 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 wow ok i really thought possibly 20 or so graduate from the class of 125 (give or take) that started. Alot of my fears of applying to med school have been changed. I was afraid if i got in and flunked out, it would be rather embarassing. Now it looks like that probably won't happen because of the way med schools are structured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 wow oki really thought possibly 20 or so graduate from the class of 125 (give or take) that started. Alot of my fears of applying to med school have been changed. I was afraid if i got in and flunked out, it would be rather embarassing. Now it looks like that probably won't happen because of the way med schools are structured. Yes, if you get in, you should be fine. Medical school training is increadibly expensive to society, so we can't afford many dropouts (which is why, I guess, it's so competitive to get in). If you get an offer, it means you're capable of getting the required marks and very most likely will graduate. The few that I knew who didn't graduate either : 1) decided it wasn't for them and quit or 2) had personal issues such as being too shy to interview patients (and refusing recommended therapy) or disagreeing with modern medicine and refusing to provide the treatments that the attending wanted them to give. When you have problems, the school will really try hard with you to get them fixed. For instance, in Ottawa (& probably elsewhere), if your marks are in the lower end of the continuum, they will meet with you to see if they can help bring them up in any way (ie if you had personal problems, they will help get you therapy if you think it could help, if it's more academic they will offer to get you a tutor if you need one, etc.). If you are unsure of your carreer choice at any time, they will meet with you and probably try to convince you to stay & find something you really like, and they will let you take a leave of absence (a yr) to think about it before you quit if you're still not sure... So yeah, med schools (at least in Canada) generally are super supportive and you'll surely get by just fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJack Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 P/F doesn't mean that doing well goes unrewarded. I know at my school, the top of the class gets an award. So, apparently, the marks are being recorded. They just aren't being released. My personal opinion is that P/F is kind of a ridiculous idea. However, so is getting numerical grades on arbitrary written exams. Perhaps its not the marking system that is to blame, but the nature of medical education itself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlatan Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 Since med schools use P/F system, undergraduates (who are less expereinced in their academic career and therefore shouldn't be made to handle more stress arising from competing with colleagues) should also receive the same treatment of P/F system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suon Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 your humour is tremendous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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