trymeover Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I met a few medical students this summer from a variety of schools and places. Now the Meds classes every year have a range of stats from 3.75-4.00cGPAs and 30-43MCATs. I met people from the lower end of those range of stats and I also met people from the higher range of those stats. The thing that bothered me though was that the few students I met who'd gotten into meds from the lower range of those stats... were all from one..uh..........demographic? They were... Caucasian. Now I thought long and hard about this because I met like less than 0.01% of the med students in Ontario, and so I wasn't even in a position to hypothesize let along conclude something. But like that made me wonder, are there any east-asian/south-asian meds students entering 1st year or 2nd year who were at the lower end of the spectrum in stats for their accepted class? Like were the few Meds students with the lower stats in the accepted pool caucasian? Let me clarify this again because this can be a touchy question/topic. I met students from all races who were average/brilliant/prodigious. I mean I met Caucasians with 4.0, 3.9, 3.8GPAs and 40, 38, 33 MCATs..... Asians with 4.0, 3.9, 3.8GPAs and 40, 38, 33 MCATs and all other races with a variety of stats. So I am not asking any questions about correlation of race and stats in the large scope. My query has to do with the few people who got accepted with the lower stats in their Meds classes. Furthermore, I don't want you to feel I'm using 'lower stats' in a condescending fashion because I'm not. 'Lower stats' in your meds classes would most likely mean very good stats compared to everybody in your graduating class in your undergrad university. And every student accepted into medical school is competent to be a doctor and that's all that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 So... what are you attempting to imply about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I met a few medical students this summer from a variety of schools and places. Furthermore, I don't want you to feel I'm using 'lower stats' in a condescending fashion because I'm not. 'Lower stats' in your meds classes would most likely mean very good stats compared to everybody in your graduating class in your undergrad university. And every student accepted into medical school is competent to be a doctor and that's all that matters. I can tell what you are trying to ask, even though you are trying to be sensitive (making it all confusing): I highly doubt it has anything to do with ethnicity. It could simply be that the number of Cauc. applying with lower stats are greater than the number of Asians applying with lower stats. Or it could be that all the Asians applying have great stats! Most medical schools are trying to increase diversity (affirmative action for aboriginals!) or favour their "residents" but there would be no way that they would accept lower stats of one ethnicity over another--also look at it this way, if there was a "racist" interviewer at the school, that's one interviewer out of dozens that take part in the application process. It would be quite phenomenal to find the entire group favouring Cauc. over Asian (I highly doubt the entire group is even Cauc. themselves!). Don't worry about the trend. The "fair" thing in this world is to accept the "best" no matter what their ethnicity (unless your trying to help a suffering minority through affirmative action)...so if a school gives 99 seats to Asians and 1 to a Cauc. it's not necessarily being racist--the 99 Asians and the 1 Cauc. were the best that applied. Saving 50/50 would not be fair: what's fair is accepting the best regardless of their ethnicity. (The same goes for males and females...you will find that some classes will have larger numbers of males and others larger numbers of females...it's just a fluctuation). Edit: Does that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamP Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 . It could simply be that the number of Cauc. applying with lower stats are greater than the number of Asians applying with lower stats. What i was about to say.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 What i was about to say.... Lol...I beat you to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamP Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Well I was debating even replying to this thread at all..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Well I was debating even replying to this thread at all..... I know...it's difficult to decide whether or not to encourage what could be a very "interesting" thread. So I like to try and stop it short. I think his (her?) intentions were well-meant, but can easily be misconstrued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I was going to make a comment about the type of people who go around telling/asking others about their "stats" and stratifying respondents by self-identified race, but I believe I'll refrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I was going to make a comment about the type of people who go around telling/asking others about their "stats" and stratifying respondents by self-identified race, but I believe I'll refrain. Difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I was going to make a comment about the type of people who go around telling/asking others about their "stats" and stratifying respondents by self-identified race, but I believe I'll refrain. Haha yeah, one of the most annoying types of people are the ones who come out after the exam results are posted and go "what did you get?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeaHatingBrit Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Ethnicity has nothing to do with it. I'm South Asian, I suppose .. And I got in just fine. So did 5 of my south-asian friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xi88 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I agree with all thr above posts about how there wouldnt be any preference for a particular demographic (at leasts the schools wouldnt disclose otherwise). However, I do believe that there is still politics behind it. Say for instance of top 100 applicants, 99 were Caucasian, and there was only one visible minority. This school would definately face some sort of racism criticism regardless. The criticisms would also occur if it were reversed and there were only one caucasian person. Although this is an extreme example, my point is that IMO, schools often tend to create classes with a more or less balanced proportion (relative to the demographics of the society the school is in) to prevent such criticisms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I agree with all thr above posts about how there wouldnt be any preference for a particular demographic (at leasts the schools wouldnt disclose otherwise). However, I do believe that there is still politics behind it. Say for instance of top 100 applicants, 99 were Caucasian, and there was only one visible minority. This school would definately face some sort of racism critisism regardless. The critisisms would also occur if it were reversed and there were only one caucasian person. Although this is an extreme example, my point is that schools need to create a balanced proportion (relative to the demographics of the society the school is in) to prevent criticism. Hopefully that just happens naturally from selecting the most suitable people from the selection pool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I agree with all thr above posts about how there wouldnt be any preference for a particular demographic (at leasts the schools wouldnt disclose otherwise). However, I do believe that there is still politics behind it. Say for instance of top 100 applicants, 99 were Caucasian, and there was only one visible minority. This school would definately face some sort of racism critisism regardless. The critisisms would also occur if it were reversed and there were only one caucasian person. Although this is an extreme example, my point is that schools need to create a balanced proportion (relative to the demographics of the society the school is in) to prevent criticism. That's affirmative action: slotting a number of seats proportioned to the "minority". But if we are to eliminate minorities (umm...not eliminate the people, but eliminate the fact that minorities suffer) then affimative action needs to be weeded out after a while. So that in the extreme example, no one would complain because they would understand that the 99 Asians were just the best (or vise versa). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Hopefully that just happens naturally from selecting the most suitable people from the selection pool Exactly...I will never say "there needs to be more women on that board" because I can only see men sitting at the table. If the men were the best ones for the job (or the only ones applying!) then they deserve it. If 50% are men and 50% are women great, but if we slot 50% for women and they're only half as good as the possible men that could be on the board then we are failing with our affirmative action. Some applications fail to ask ethnicity (some even fail to ask gender!) because it should play no part in the process (like I said, unless we are trying to help a minority that is currently suffering or falling behind in our society). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xi88 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 That's affirmative action: slotting a number of seats proportioned to the "minority". But if we are to eliminate minorities (umm...not eliminate the people, but eliminate the fact that minorities suffer) then affimative action needs to be weeded out after a while. So that in the extreme example, no one would complain because they would understand that the 99 Asians were just the best (or vise versa). I'm not saying that schools have affirmative action. It's just that if a particular entry class were to be significantly unbalanced, the school would try to fix it to prevent any negative criticisms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I'm not saying that schools have affirmative action. It's just that if a particular entry class were to be significantly unbalanced, the school would try to fix it to prevent any negative criticisms. Oh I know! I just think it's sad that that would be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Oh I know! I just think it's sad that that would be the case. Depends on how they try to fix it. If they bias the selection process then it isn't as good. If they address the root cause of why fewer high quality applicants come from a particularly demographic it is better. The last 20 years considerable efforts have been made to try and encourage more diversity in science, starting at the high school level or earlier. While progress is often slow I think progress has been made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Depends on how they try to fix it. If they bias the selection process then it isn't as good. If they address the root cause of why fewer high quality applicants come from a particularly demographic it is better. The last 20 years considerable efforts have been made to try and encourage more diversity in science, starting at the high school level or earlier. While progress is often slow I think progress has been made. I believe weeding out affirmative action once bias seems to be eliminated is the way forward. In the end, the numbers will "even" themselves out. And the numbers should reflect the proportion of "good-candidates" applying from each ethnicity blindly (meaning, no one should even have to look at the ethnicity, it would just happen). I agree...wonderful progress has been made and is continuing to be made. All these schools are run by highly intelligent individuals: I'm sure (hope) that they are doing what they deem as true and right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I believe weeding out affirmative action once bias seems to be eliminated is the way forward. In the end, the numbers will "even" themselves out. And the numbers should reflect the proportion of "good-candidates" applying from each ethnicity blindly (meaning, no one should even have to look at the ethnicity, it would just happen). I agree...wonderful progress has been made and is continuing to be made. All these schools are run by highly intelligent individuals: I'm sure (hope) that they are doing what they deem as true and right. It is fun to take a look at the graduating class photo of various med schools in the 60s/70s (or earlier) and compare it to a the previous years class. Not quite so many white men filling the ranks anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 It is fun to take a look at the graduating class photo of various med schools in the 60s/70s (or earlier) and compare it to a the previous years class. Not quite so many white men filling the ranks anymore Lol. Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Not to mention the ~58% women http://www.afmc.ca/pdf/2-08-09EnrolmentbySex.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Not to mention the ~58% women http://www.afmc.ca/pdf/2-08-09EnrolmentbySex.pdf hehehe, which just by the way reinforces the idea that they do track this sort of stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trymeover Posted July 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 I know...it's difficult to decide whether or not to encourage what could be a very "interesting" thread. So I like to try and stop it short. I think his (her?) intentions were well-meant, but can easily be misconstrued. Haha, thanks. I knew I was putting myself in a potentially ugly position posting this thread. I just wanted some people who are more intelligible than me on this subject to clarify and discuss this issue with me so I could put it to rest in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontariostudent Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Not to mention the ~58% women http://www.afmc.ca/pdf/2-08-09EnrolmentbySex.pdf Yeah, my supervisor was telling us today how often he is the only male in the OR and it's weird for him... he then went on to say that the worst part is that the women are often better physicians than the men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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