Ottawa - Housing

[Guest doctorfunk]

Seeing such inspirational people on this board receiving the bad waitlist letter has honestly made this day somewhat bittersweet for me... But it's not over - hang in there!

[Guest wassabi101]

Congrats Tappety Tap and Tanya for being good waitlisted! Ottawa U just called me back regarding my ambiguity as to being on the good or the bad waiting list, and I'm on the good waiting list as well! It's really too bad we have no idea of our rank :\

 

I really don't know what to say to those who got bad waitlisted except that I'm really sorry and am just as confused as you are. As my interview did go horribly and my GPA is the lowest it can be to get an interview, I can confirm that for some of us, like me, it might just very well be luck. The only advice I can offer is to meet with the school- For example at McGill and U of Montreal, I know you can meet with the medical advisor and go over your application file.

 

For now, I guess all we can do is wait! Does anyone know a bit more about the waitlist (moderators?) and how they differentiate between the English and French program? For example, if I'm # 50 on a total list of 80, and there is a 50th spot but it's in the English program, do they skip over me until they get to an English applying applicant??

 

Thanks-

wassabi

[Guest j282]

Really sorry to hear that you didn't get in.

 

I think that most valuable quality that a physician can possess is maturity. You have time and time again on this board shown this characteristic. Your life experience simply solidifies this. I look around my med school class as see a few rather immaturish 22 year olds chasing after each others monkey tails all day, and I ask myself, what kind of lies or acting show did these apes put on during the interviews to fool everyone and deprive some outstanding candidate such as yourself a spot.

 

My advice is if you spell age descrimination, apply elsewhere, you can't fight the system but you can make this happen.

 

I wish you the best. Any questions about UofT meds, please feel free to ask. Anything at all!!!!!!!!

[Guest novacanuck]

Peter,

My condolences go out to you....I have yet to hear from Ottawa. Did you get this letter in your email or was it snail mail.... I'm from NS so I'm not sure whether I would have received it snail mail yet...

Again, my heart goes with you.

Ben

[Guest mollybear]

Hi Peter,

 

I haven't ever written a message to you but I have followed your posts on this board. Your contributions to this board and your willingness to help others has definetly inspired many, myself included. Just like everyone else, I was shocked to read that you didn't get in. Sometimes it really doesn't make sense who gets in and who doesn't. I wish you all of the best and don't give up trying! I think you really have what it takes to be a GREAT physician!

 

MB

[Guest bad hombre]

Peter,

 

Hey man, I can't believe that letter. All your posts indicate that you are a terrific person and would make a fine physician, it's just too bad the admissions folk couldn't see that >:

 

There's a saying in spanish that's loosely translated as "the third time is conquered" I'm sure this will come true for you in the next cycle.

 

Best of Luck

 

hombre

[Guest bad hombre]

Peter,

 

Hey man, I can't believe that letter. I've been reading your posts for some time and they all indicate that you are a great person and would make a fine physician. It's really unfortunate the adcom couldn't see that >: .

 

There's a saying in spanish that is loosely translated as "the third time is victorious" i'm sure this will come true for you in the next cycle. best of luck!

 

hombre

[Guest MDWannabe]

Hi Peter,

 

I haven't been on this website for a while, but I did actively follow your pursuit last year when I was applying. I have a somewhat similar profile to yours, similar age, family not located where I was planning to go to school (so I have to commute every day), different background and life experience. I did get into Mac in 2002 and would be happy to talk to you if you apply next year. Speak to JMH or MacMDStudent (moderators in the Mac section if it comes down to it), and they will get you in touch with me.

 

Follow your dream - it's worth the pain!

[Guest mojbird]

Hi every one,

I just want to say that I didn't get in Ottawa either how ever, we can't judge the Commitee cause we never know how people reacted at their interview. Sometimes, taking to much or being so proud isn't very good at the interview. I am just saying that don't judge the commitee and dont say that Ottawa can't choose properly because they didn't accepte some people. I am so so sorry that some of you didn't receive a letter as you hoped. neither have I. But stop with this bad ottawa stuff... Ottawa can't judge.... etc

I wish you all the best and good luck.

[Guest lsaville]

I agree that Ottawa has a tough job making their choices. We don't see how others preformed in the interview. I also think that it is unfair to make a decision based on one interview. There are so many people I know well that didn't get in to med school but deserved it...and many others that I know that got in and shouldn't have. We shouldn't bad mouth the process but instead look for ways to improve it. It's a tough job for them and there may be better ways to make selections.

 

I didn't receive an acceptance email and am still hoping I am on the good waitlist, but for those of you who get in, it's up to you to improve the system for future applicants. Remember, you may be the one on the other side of the fence making these decisions sometime in the future.

 

She D

[Guest surfette]

Not to cause a stirr....but:

A lot of you are only seeing one side of the story. While trying to be supportive towards Peter....try to think of of the admissions committe trying to justify putting a fourty-year old through medschool who will only have 10 or 20 years worth of work for the province, when there is an equally qualified 20 year old, with less commitments (ie more time to devote toward studies), and a lot more years ahead of them to work.... possibly double what Peter has to offer. Remember that whatever amount of money you're paying for tuition, the province is coughing up (roughly) the other 80% it actually costs to put one student through medical school...so put yourself in other people's shoes (ie community members on the admission committe), who are thinking about investing their tax dollars in a doctor with twice the lifetime to work as the other....It's harsh words, I know, and it doesn't help that I'm not in the "I love Peter cult", but is it not possible that with our current shortage of doctors in our heath care system that the competition has just risen that high? Not to offend anyone...it just had to be said. Sorry Peter.

[Guest lsaville]

Not that I am a part of the "I love Peter cult", but that is very harsh words considering you don't know if you are speaking the truth. If what you say is true, then why does Mac consistently consider people who are older over those who are younger? Perhaps because they know they are investing in people who are more mature, know what they want in life and will be dedicated to becoming a great doctor.

 

And aside from his age, Peter has the qualities of a good doctor; he has only provided selfless support and advice to others. I don't know how med schools make their decisions because last year I told the truth (even if it wasn't the answer they wanted to hear) and they didn't take that into consideration at all.

 

There must be a better way to select future MDs.

 

She D

[Guest tantastic]

Under your arguement, the province should not allow females to practice medicine. It has been well studied that over 45% of female physicians leave the profession to raise families, early retirment etc. So all these females that are being admitted will really do very little in removing the physician shortage at all either, under your line of reasoning, none of them should be admitted.

 

You cannot descriminate on the basis of any criteria. It's not right. Just so your updated on current trends in Medicine. Tuition is privatized, the province of Ontario only has to pay approx 2% of the fees to educate a medical student the other 98% is paid by the student. This measely 2% is well offset by the cheap labour med students provide during residency. You might want to read up on this stuff, so you at least have a morsel of knowlege about current trends in medicine before you have your interview.

[Guest MA2003]

I am keeping out of this debate because I don't know Peter, and I am certainly not about to speculate on his experience or the thought process the adcom used to consider him. However, I do want to pick up on one of Isaville's points:

If what you say is true, then why does Mac consistently consider people who are older over those who are younger? Perhaps because they know they are investing in people who are more mature, know what they want in life and will be dedicated to becoming a great doctor.

 

It seems to me that this point is a commom myth about Mac. Mac does indeed accept older applicants, but certainly not "consistently over those who are younger." One needs only to look at Mac's stats to see evidence of this: www.fhs.mcmaster.ca/mdpro...s_2005.pdf

Perhaps they have higher numbers of mature students than some of the other schools, but the vast majority of the students are between the ages of 20-24 and have bachelors degrees in science. Therefore, I don't really think that referencing Mac necessarily supports your argument about mature students.

 

Similarly, check out the Association of Canadian Medical Colleges website: www.acmc.ca/AdmissionBook/AdBkWEB.html

In the year 2001-2002, younger students had a higher success rate than students over the age of 26, even when the numbers are adjusted to account for the fact that there were fewer applicants over the age of 26.

 

That is not to say that older students are not more mature; rather, mature age is not a necessary condition for the attribution of maturity. Clearly, many, many young students are deemed mature by the adcoms.

[Guest MayFlower1]

Hey surfette,

 

First of all...you don't have to apologize...no offense taken...you're entitled to your opinions. For the record, I have no problem with the admissions process at UofO or anywhere else...it is what it is. I would like to point out, however, that most of your assumptions are incorrect.

 

try to think of of the admissions committe trying to justify putting a fourty-year old through medschool who will only have 10 or 20 years worth of work for the province, when there is an equally qualified 20 year old,

 

Wow...that is quite a mouthful. First, there are more than several 35 to 40 year olds in med schools across the country. The myth that one could only work for 10 or 20 years is just that...one of the beautiful things about medicine is that you can work as long as you want, given you're competent...my plan had me working for an absolute minimum of 20 years and, more likely, 30 to 35. I hate to say it, and I can't remember the source (I'll look and post it later) but the average working life of a physician is approximately 20 years. Sure, many work more...but the mean is about 20 years. Second, as another poster has correctly pointed out...many women take time off to have children...many only return to part-time work after having children and many also choose to stop practicing altogether in order to raise a family. Should they be discriminated against for that? Absolutely not. If one were to discriminate against women, or people who are older...what about an individual with a terminal illness...what about people who smoke and are likely to die from cancer prior to practicing for 20 years...etc., etc. This is a very slippery slope and I would hope decisions are not based on criteria like these.

 

with less commitments (ie more time to devote toward studies), and a lot more years ahead of them to work.... possibly double what Peter has to offer.

 

Again, an interesting assumption...but completely incorrect. I would guess I actually have as much or more time than most candidates to study, etc. I don't have to worry about income or working as we have ample financial resources. Second, I've already had my children...I'm married...so I won't be spending time looking for a soulmate or taking time off for maternity/paternity...

 

It's harsh words, I know, and it doesn't help that I'm not in the "I love Peter cult", but is it not possible that with our current shortage of doctors in our heath care system that the competition has just risen that high?

 

I have no idea what you've just said here. I think you should also take a look at what you call the "I love Peter cult". There are many supportive people in this forum...many whom I've been interacting with for two years or more. I think what you're mistaking for the "I love Peter cult" is really a bunch of people with exactly the type of supportiveness and social skills that are required by amazing doctors.

 

Not to offend anyone...it just had to be said. Sorry Peter.

 

Hey, don't worry about offending me...you might have offended others though...and, again, you don't have to be sorry...these are your opinions.

 

I assume that you are in med school or residency...if this is not the case...then I apologize...anyway, the point being, if you're going to become a doctor, you could learn a great deal by looking to those in this forum who truly exhibit amazing personal qualities...empathy...supportiveness...thoughtfulness...openmindedness...etc., etc. There is a great deal to learn here.

 

Peter

 

P.S. Thanks to all of you who have lent incredible support to me over the past two years...and, especially, in the face of bad news. I will be writing once I gather my thoughts and my backup plan has been realized...I'm not ignoring the forum or "hiding out"...I would just like to post when I have some positive news. My email address is available in my profile for those who might like to contact me for any reason.

[Guest me maniac]

Surfette,

 

Excuse me? While I realize you are entitled to your opinion and you say you don't mean to offend anyone, but understand this: I have just been offended. Before speaking your mind on a public forum, you should be aware of the facts. Namely: IT IS AGAINST THE LAW TO DISCRIMINATE ANYONE BASED ON THEIR AGE (or gender, or race...). Your statement is evidence that there are some "young" people applying to med school that obviously do not have the maturity to see anything beyond your own little world. Yes, I am assuming you are young, just as you are assuming I am "old". I am 37 (and proud of it :b ), married and have two kids to look after. I have a lot of responsibility, but at the same time I also have career goals like any other young person. You can't deny me that based on my age - after all, I have been paying for all the young 'uns subsidized education for the past 17 years through all the taxes the gov't squeezes out of my salary. Oh, I also worked full time during my undergrad because I wasn't eligible for student loans (oh, by the way, those are also subidized by all us old timer's tax dollars).

 

You say that we are not seeing both sides of the Peter/Admissions issue, but this arguement is not really about that, from what I have gathered from your post. Your blanket statement that all people over the age of 20 (or whatever) shouldn't be allowed into med school, is as riduculous as me saying that young people are immature - which obviously isn't the case. Why don't we just extend your statement to include: no one over 20 allowed to have kids (they will have fewer years to spend with their kids), or apply for new jobs (the employer will get fewer years of service)? As far as young people having more time to devote to their studies, your arguement is once again flawed. Speaking from personal experience, I spent less time studying than my younger counter parts, yet did better than them. Why? I use my time wisely because I have less of it and it is precious (it is also something you learn as you mature - as you will find out).

 

I don't know if you are in Med school or not, but if you showed your narrowmindedness in your interview as you did in your post above, the admissions committe would have seen that you are not, in fact, mature enough to be in this profession. (Funny how that admissions thing works - some people who deserve to get in don't while other who don't deserve to get in do.)

 

In your words, sorry for the harsh words, I didn't mean to offend - but it had to be said.

 

me

[Guest UWOMED2005]

This opinion gets presented from time to time. But I completely disagree with your opinion, as a medical student. The value a couple of late 30 to mid 40s students provides a medical school class is invaluable, well worth any potential practice years lost to that seat (don't forget some physicians retire early, so that might not even be the case.)

 

A lot of the stuff you end up learning about and talking about in PCL/PBL discussion groups is about life experience. That's what medicine is ALL about - helping people through illness, pregnancy, childrearing, etc. Almost every single one of us early twenty-year olds have NO experience in many of these areas.

 

Having someone around who's been there for the delivery of a child, has treated common childhood infections, knows what its like to manage family and career. . . I think that's well worth giving up a seat for.

[Guest stargirl]

boy...this sure is a hot topic...

 

i just have two points to make...

 

I agree with MA2003 in that your age does not necessarily reflect your level of maturity...I think when it comes to meds, age can have a big impact though...you've seen more, done more, been through more...and i think that the older you are, the more sure you are about what you want...more clear about your goals and values and all that jazz...it's awesome that mcmaster recognizes that and doesn't summarily dismiss all applicants that fall out of the "average" age range!

 

And yes...the adcom has a difficult task...they have to decide whether or not you'd make a good doctor based on the 45 minute version of you...they don't see who you are every day (and not just when someone is looking...) I lived for 2 years with someone who later got in to med school (and not at Ottawa either so this is in no way Ottawa bashing!). I SAW the way that they interacted with / treated the people around them and I wouldn't want that person to be my doctor, or my child's doctor or even a complete stranger's doctor...the adcomms do the best they can and we should give them credit for that but you can't put them up on a pedestal...the system isn't perfect...the adcomms are HUMAN and they can make mistakes too...

 

i guess that's all...except for the fact that i am offended by your age remark as well surfette...i'm 27.5 - maybe i should start picking out my retirement home now!

 

stargirl

[Guest wassabi101]

Cheers to that!

 

Well said!!

 

wassabi

[Guest g22g]

What might a committee profile during the interview?

 

:\ Your age (but you say you can live to be 80)

:b your weight (If you are morbidly obese, you will likely not live past 60 and it would appear that you chose to poison yourself with food and do not medicate yourself with enough activity. Consequently, you appear to be a poor role model for effective healthy changes because your health education would be, prima facie, hypocritical; the counter argument of "well I understand how difficult it is" has some merit.

:b Your body language, do you slouch or twitch nervously, is your head consistently pointed up or down or favoring one side? Does this change after you have been asked the tough question from interviewer X. Are you combatitive or dismissive with your eyes, breathing, etc towards Dr. X?

The color of your teeth Difficult to get into dental school with Austin Powers teeth, right... Your oral hygiene is something that I think they believe you have total control of. Most procrastinators would have yellow teeth, while most OCDs would have pearls.

:lol Your voice? Do you use large vocabulary words (does your diction escalate in complexity) at the appropriate point, do you change the inflection of your voice to correspond to how passionate you might feel about a topic? Do you lower or slow your voice when you want to communicate a touching moment or contemplation. Do you pause after the question is asked? Do you ask follow up questions when appropriate?

0] What is your skin complexion, how much do you sweat, is your hair untidy, do you have nose / ear / neck hair, and when was your last hair cut?

:x How often do you drink the cup of water provided? Do you throw away the cup at the end of the interview or do you suppose that is someone else's job? Do you play with the cup after it is empty?

:rollin Do you smile? Do you over smile especially after you describe how much the death of your grandmother had such a deep emotional impact...

|I Do you lean into a good question? How did you articulate the question you had for them?

:hat Your Dress: Are your shoes clean, are you wearing open toed shoes, what hose / sock do you have on, is your shirt ironed, do you have an appropriate watch? Do you look at your watch throughout the interview? Are you self-conscious about your dress, like do you fuddle with your tie, your necklace, etc.

:eek How do you breath? Large and deep before you speak, from the stomach or the top of your lungs? Did you change your breathing after a tough question or with what you thought was a poorly answered one. Does your breath smell like lunch?

>: Are you wearing too much perfume.

:rolleyes Are you wearing too much makeup? (Anyone try eye shadow?)

How do you use your hands to communicate with? What about rings?

:rolleyes When you were in the waiting area were you in a group or by yourself, did you appear interested in what others were saying. Were other people interested in what you were saying? If you were by yourself, what was your reading material (the student code of conduct or a scientific journal? Or gasp, were you on a cell phone? How organized were you to get up?

I

First you can take the above with a huge grain of NaCl, as my scraggly cousin wore pajamas to his interview at Stanford and then turned them down for the MD/PhD program at UCSF. So don’t think too much of profiling, especially if you are a National Institutes of Health predoctoral awardee, near tops in your class at MIT, and you are so well read that you expresses your commitment to medicine like poetry. Seriously though beyond my gratuitous bragging of shared genes, my cousin was extremely comfortable with himself and asserted “If they don’t want me I don’t want them; and my choice of clothing etc has NO bearing on my ability to help or heal others.”

 

Nevertheless, in my heart I firmly believe that the committee members address two criteria 1) How are you unique (and would that uniqueness contribute to your class and then society?) 2) Would I want you to be the doctor for me or my children?

 

If you fail to come across as genuine, like not knowing the answer to a question you should obviously know especially when it concerns your research, volunteer experience or your hobbies. Likewise, are you combative, judgmental (like I would never do geriatrics), ego central, wishy-washy on any topic or experience then the committee members have doubt. That doubt provides the opportunity for profiling.

 

I have been rejected three times over 5 years, each of the times I have limited myself to only one or two interviews a year in the thought (back then) that I am sure to get in with my awards, experiences, ideas, etc. And I don't have the time to apply to other schools because of teaching/ research, or later on I didn't have time / money to practice / write the MCAT.

 

Note it only takes one interviewer to tank your chances into getting into a particular school, when the interview is worth 40% or more. This is magnified with the thought going through your head that so much is riding on this particular interview, kind of like you are stuck in the middle of a bank robbery and need to use the restroom, heh? The only way to combat this nervousness, IMHO, is positive thinking, practice, and preparation (maybe addressing some of the superficial points mentioned in chapter one of this epic.)

 

I like this forum a great deal. I especially admire you, Peter, for your candidness. I am concerned for your immediate future and how you might be trapping yourself right now in this forum, eerily supportive yet poisoning your self esteem and relationships with those physically close. As I feel I have trapped myself with all the ghosting around I have done instead of addressing my not near enough completed dissertation.

 

I am going to take a week off, and free my ghost; Peter, I hope you find the power and support to do what is best for you and the ones you love. Whether it be practicing the August MCAT, starting a career as a Health Educator (MPH) or EMT, applying internationally or to American DO/MD/PA schools, utilizing your (computer) expertise for the sake of free enterprise. Note that Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream and Subway Sandwiches arose from the latter path. Whatever you choose I hope that you HAVE TRUE FUN and, or, at least make a difference worthy of your talents and passion.

 

Affectionately yours,

 

g22g

[Guest EMHC]

Surfette:

 

It is incorrect to say that the Admissions Committee looks at persons age (or anything else eg: gender, religion, etc) and puts this into their decision. Are you even in medical school? Because if you are it is certainly strange for a person who has not even read the package careful enough to be accepted. You certainly did not take a look at the criteria for selection where it explicitly states that factors, such as those listed above, are NOT put into consideration.

 

With regards to putting enough time towards ones studies, that's why you have to send in your transcript in the first place. There is no way to justify that since one is older, he or she would not be able to spend as much time studying. Can't a person be individually wealthy?

 

Peter here has demonstrated all the qualities and characteristics that a true physician has and that is why we feel sorry for him that the Admissions Committee at UofO have not noticed. Your last post obviously do not demonstrate any qualities of a good physician.

 

You do have a right to your opinions, but the facts supporting your opinions are absolutely WRONG.

 

EMHC

 

PS: I'm sorry to hear about the bad news Peter. I hope you have not given up hope because it would be of great lost to the Canadian medical system if we do not have a physician like you.

[Guest avenirv]

medicine is not PRINCIPALLY about helping people, but about treating and healing.

helping people can be very well done by a social worker and family.

[Guest avenirv]

waht about the european system(s):

1. system 1: at the end of high school you pass some exams, there are 3 levels:

-a)gives you access to everything including medicine

-b)gives you access to everything except medicine

-c)gives you access to everything except medicine and engineering

if you pass (a) you go to the first year of the medical school. but the breal challange comes at the end of the first year. the number of seats is limited and you have to pass some exams based on the first year classes. about 60% fail. no interviews, so no possible human error.

 

2.system 2: specialized exams for medicine.

no interviews but 4 exams at anatomy, biology, physics and chemistry.

 

these systems are less prone to human error or human bias. it is not perfect but what about ? a combination ?

 

then there is another system: the american one.

in usa the average gpa of those admitted into harvard is 3.6. then they have aN UNOFFICIAL translation scale based on the school you come from (based on the reputation, etc; so if you have a 4.0 from a idaho undegrad, this is less that a 3.5 from an ivy league). this translation scale is used by the private schools. mcat waits extremely heavy; if you have a 3.3 gpa but a stelar mcat you are in for an interview.

 

and about funding. if you go to a state school (good one) the price is quite the same as in canada, but in usd. if you go to a reputable private one the tuition is somewhere between 30-40k usd /year.

 

what is you opinion on the admission system ?

[Guest avenirv]

what about the european system(s):

1. system 1: at the end of high school you pass some exams, there are 3 levels:

-a)gives you access to everything including medicine

-b)gives you access to everything except medicine

-c)gives you access to everything except medicine and engineering

if you pass (a) you go to the first year of the medical school. but the real challenge comes at the end of the first year. the number of seats is limited and you have to pass some exams based on the first year classes. about 60% fail. no interviews, so no possible human error.

 

2.system 2: specialized exams for medicine.

no interviews but 4 exams at anatomy, biology, physics and chemistry.

 

these systems are less prone to human error or human bias. it is not perfect but what about ? a combination ?

 

then there is another system: the american one.

in usa the average gpa of those admitted into harvard is 3.6. then they have an UNOFFICIAL translation scale based on the school you come from (based on the reputation, etc

[Guest Blackbird15]

Wow Peter, I'm really shocked and sorry that you've been waitlisted. I've never met you personally, but I've read your posts and you've always seemed like an articulate, intelligent, compassionate person and more than qualified to be a doctor. That really sucks...

 

Well, let's just hope that waitlist moves fast as a lot of students decide that they don't want to go to Ottawa -- y'know because of all that asbestos they found in the walls of the medical building... and the unexplained dissapearances... cough, cough...

 

Blackbird