Are individuals with learning disabilities ineligible to become physicians?

[Robin Hood]

To quote my Abnormal Psych text, a learning disability is:

 

"inadequte development in a specific area of academic, language, speech, or motor skills that is not due to mental retardation, autism, a demonstrable physical disorder, or deficient educational opportunities. Children with these disorders are usually of average or above-average intelligence but have difficulty learning some specific skill (e.g., arithmetic or reading), and thus their progress in school is impeded."

 

A person with a learning disability has the intelligence to learn what they need to know, but some stumbling block to learning it, so given the appropriate adaptive measures (word recognition software for someone with dyslexia, speech recognition software for someone with dysgraphia, etc.) they are able to learn and use the material. Being able to learn and use the material is the difference between someone with a learning disability, or other type of disability, and someone who is (as you put it) "stupid".

 

Someone with dyslexia who is highly intelligent could still become a fantastic doctor, engineer, mathematician or anything else, but someone who is unable to memorize facts, or learn and understand complex ideas and concepts probably could not. Tests in school are designed to find out what a student has learned. If someone has not learned the material (no matter what the reason) they should not be given a good grade, but if that person needs some adaptive measure (longer time, oral examination, adaptive software) to show their understanding of the material, that is a different matter.

 

It isn't discriminatory to provide adaptive measures for someone to demonstrate their mastery of the material they are learning, but I can understand how at first glance it can look that way.

 

What about non verbal learning disability?

[Robin Hood]

ADHD, or whatever it is called now, probably won't get too much in the way. I had classmates who had this but still got ROAD.

 

Nice! I'm able to study normally now that I'm taking Ritalin. However, the doctor told me to take it 5 days/week, I doubt I will be able to continue like that when I get in university (and having ~15 credits).

Another thing, people here talked about various LDs and how they don't prevent you from going into medicine. But I wanted to know, I seem to have a Non Verbal Learning Disability, I have difficulty doing labs and I can't apply instructions. Should I stop wasting my time thinking about medicine or there's a way to cope with this?

[Corie]

I had a individualized learning plan in high school and was a trouble maker since elementry school. An educational psycologist (not psychriatrist) diagnosed me with mild ADHD and mild dyslexia when I was 14 and hence my IEP. Never took any medication for it though - I prefered to deal with it myself. What I found helped was taking courses/programs you really enjoy. I find once I get into it, or liking something, I can learn about it all day long.

 

To the person above, yeah... reading lab instructions during lab time really gives me a hard time. I also take forever (lots of distractions) trying to begin studying. But other than that, I did really really well once I started university.

 

I do believe bipolar disorder in less mild cases may prevent one from being a doctor (you're asked to disclose such information when registering with reglatory bodies). But ADHD won't stop you. It depends how you manage it and your determination I guess.

[Robin Hood]

I had a individualized learning plan in high school and was a trouble maker since elementry school. An educational psycologist (not psychriatrist) diagnosed me with mild ADHD and mild dyslexia when I was 14 and hence my IEP. Never took any medication for it though - I prefered to deal with it myself. What I found helped was taking courses/programs you really enjoy. I find once I get into it, or liking something, I can learn about it all day long.

 

To the person above, yeah... reading lab instructions during lab time really gives me a hard time. I also take forever (lots of distractions) trying to begin studying. But other than that, I did really really well once I started university.

 

I do believe bipolar disorder in less mild cases may prevent one from being a doctor (you're asked to disclose such information when registering with reglatory bodies). But ADHD won't stop you. It depends how you manage it and your determination I guess.

 

I can read instructions, but I can't apply them. Is it the same for you? I struggle with my motor skills. Even when I'm learning new movements, like in a Taekwando course I took in cegep. Heard that bicycle/swimming helps. The thing, is that in med school, I may have to do some surgerical acts during clerkship, right? I don't see how someone who can't even do excercice or a simple lab will be able to do surgery.

[Mourning Cloak]

I struggle with my motor skills. The thing, is that in med school, I may have to do some surgerical acts during clerkship, right? I don't see how someone who can't even do excercice or a simple lab will be able to do surgery.

 

I made it through my surgical rotation, and basically the stuff about being a glorified retractor is true. (I didn't go looking for stuff to do, mind. I much prefer the other side of the drapes

 

I didn't do anything that would even be generously described as "surgery". I held retractors. I tried not to faint from boredom. Can you hold a fork? Then you can hold a retractor. I pulled out NG tubes. I put them in. I removed staples and sutures. I rounded. I wrote notes. I chased path reports. I did a lot of IVs and some lines (but I'm interested in gas, so that's bread-and-butter for me). Some of my classmates did chest tubes, but you did have to want to do them. If you can feed yourself without stabbing yourself in the eye, I doubt you'll have any difficulty with your surgical clerkship (unless, of course, you WANT to become a neurosurgeon or some insanity like that).

 

In your ER rotation, you'll probably suture. A lot. It's not hard to do (it does take practice to do beautifully, however). OBS same thing. So far clerkship hasn't required anything more than minimally average motor skills.

[Robin Hood]

I made it through my surgical rotation, and basically the stuff about being a glorified retractor is true. (I didn't go looking for stuff to do, mind. I much prefer the other side of the drapes

 

I didn't do anything that would even be generously described as "surgery". I held retractors. I tried not to faint from boredom. Can you hold a fork? Then you can hold a retractor. I pulled out NG tubes. I put them in. I removed staples and sutures. I rounded. I wrote notes. I chased path reports. I did a lot of IVs and some lines (but I'm interested in gas, so that's bread-and-butter for me). Some of my classmates did chest tubes, but you did have to want to do them. If you can feed yourself without stabbing yourself in the eye, I doubt you'll have any difficulty with your surgical clerkship (unless, of course, you WANT to become a neurosurgeon or some insanity like that).

 

In your ER rotation, you'll probably suture. A lot. It's not hard to do (it does take practice to do beautifully, however). OBS same thing. So far clerkship hasn't required anything more than minimally average motor skills.

 

Thank you very much for relieving me!

[Corie]

My problem isn't so much with the doing. I built things from recycled VCR, printer and pretty much any small motor/gear system I can find when I was younger. Favourite hobby back then. So doing things with my hands I'm good at.

 

What I can't do is read a few pages of small print instructions that arn't in point form in the lab. Fortunately, the anatomy labs at McGill had super short instructions.

[ubcMDhopeful]

I have always thought I have some mild form of ADHD but dont want to go to the doctor because if indeed I am diagnosed with ADHD or something like it, I will not take any drugs as I do not want to deal the with the side effects.

 

I am so far managing but it takes forever for me to start any work. Also, I can only pay attention to things for like 5 min straight then I zone out for 1-2 min and then 5 min again lol. Furthermore, I have no patience for hand writing. I try to write so fast that thing become ineligible; however, if I really pay attention my hand writing is actually good.

[Robin Hood]

I have always thought I have some mild form of ADHD but dont want to go to the doctor because if indeed I am diagnosed with ADHD or something like it, I will not take any drugs as I do not want to deal the with the side effects.

 

I am so far managing but it takes forever for me to start any work. Also, I can only pay attention to things for like 5 min straight then I zone out for 1-2 min and then 5 min again lol. Furthermore, I have no patience for hand writing. I try to write so fast that thing become ineligible; however, if I really pay attention my hand writing is actually good.

 

If you can still study well and pull good grades, then yes, it would be better to avoid taking any medication.

Some people have hardcore ADHD, and they can still manage it without medication. I have been taking Ritalin since Tuesday, (it's to be taken 5 days/week) and I have seen little side effects, I can usually eat normally, except at rare occasions, I lose apetite (but it used to happen for me before taking Ritalin).

[Corie]

I have always thought I have some mild form of ADHD but dont want to go to the doctor because if indeed I am diagnosed with ADHD or something like it, I will not take any drugs as I do not want to deal the with the side effects.

 

I am so far managing but it takes forever for me to start any work. Also, I can only pay attention to things for like 5 min straight then I zone out for 1-2 min and then 5 min again lol. Furthermore, I have no patience for hand writing. I try to write so fast that thing become ineligible; however, if I really pay attention my hand writing is actually good.

 

I think your symptoms are pretty common among premeds and medical students

[PhoenixFlare500]

I think your symptoms are pretty common among premeds and medical students

 

I can never pay attention in lecture and when I'm studying I'm either on Facebook or some other distraction every 5 minutes. You can find way to manage or focus for longer periods of time. For me I find I work most efficiently under pressure so I'm a crammer, which isn't great for stress levels but that's just how I am.

[oh_outstanding]

Short answer: no, it's not an issue whatsoever, we have a number of people in class with special needs who require accommodations of some sort

 

Long answer: there are procedures in place for determining if a disability compromises the student's ability to perform specific tasks, call the schools for more info

 

@malkynn - I am curious what you know about the procedures. When are the procedures used?After a student is failing? Before they are accepted? It is hard to measure people's potential and capabilities in medical school at the begining, because everyone comes from different backgrounds. And people may have learning disabilities but it could be covered up by an easy undergrad program.

 

I curious what would happen if someone with a learning disability (ADHD or dyslexia) fails a unit. Is it up to the school to decide a consequence?

 

Many people with learning disabilities, dyslexia for example have trouble memorizing facts, however once they learn why a process happends they got the concept. However I think med school lectures are more about memorizing facts than understanding and learning processes...at least at the begining.

 

I am curious what everyone's thoughts are on how far medical schools should go to accomadate different learners and where the responsibility of the student starts.

 

A student could argue that if the school changed the school's presentation style he or she wouldnt fail anything.

[Robin Hood]

@malkynn - I am curious what you know about the procedures. When are the procedures used?After a student is failing? Before they are accepted? It is hard to measure people's potential and capabilities in medical school at the begining, because everyone comes from different backgrounds. And people may have learning disabilities but it could be covered up by an easy undergrad program.

 

I curious what would happen if someone with a learning disability (ADHD or dyslexia) fails a unit. Is it up to the school to decide a consequence?

 

Many people with learning disabilities, dyslexia for example have trouble memorizing facts, however once they learn why a process happends they got the concept. However I think med school lectures are more about memorizing facts than understanding and learning processes...at least at the begining.

 

 

 

I am curious what everyone's thoughts are on how far medical schools should go to accomadate different learners and where the responsibility of the student starts.

 

A student could argue that if the school changed the school's presentation style he or she wouldnt fail anything.

 

The student's disability should not hinder him from meeting the same educational objectives as other students. The student should be able to work as an autonomous physician, pose physical examinations, interpret results and observations, communicate with patients, etc...

The accomodation needed shold not drain the university's ressources.

ADHD and dyslexia can be worked with, since they don't hinder medical practice. The student still has the cognitive capacities to reason and interpret what he reads and sees. The university should provide accomodations with evaluations for these people.

For exemple, someone who has an IQ below 85 should not be admitted (intellectually deficient and borderline-intelligent).

[chemgirl]

Not sure where the misinformation is coming from re: bipolar disorder. I am affected, unfortunately, and by no means has it prevented me from becoming a physician (I am PGY-2 in psychiatry). I reported myself to the college however if you have gone through medical school and residency without complaints about your professionalism then it isn't an issue. Bipolar is such a multifaceted illness, there are a lot of people on the spectrum who function well and go unnoticed with the help of medication, good sleep hygeine, etc.

 

There was a comment that people with bipolar shouldn't become a psychiatrist... not sure why that would be either? I can see bipolar coming a mile away and have a pretty easy time with diagnosing that particular illness. Anything else, I don't really have personal experience with, though, so I'm on the same boat as my fellow residents for the most part.

[Dino]

If your condition is being treated effectively and you can function normally while excelling in undergrad, there should be no reason to deny admission. I personally know at least one recent female UBC med graduate who talked about her depression on her personal sketch and got accepted without problem. I also know of at least two male med students, also at UBC who suffer from ADHD, but are doing very well with medication. I don't know if they disclosed their condition in their application, but I doubt it would have made a difference.

As for bipolar disorder, I hear a lot of good things about the new mood stabilisers. No more need to risk poisoning yourself with lithium or taking the associated blood tests.