Are individuals with learning disabilities ineligible to become physicians?

[Edge]

Quick question, I was wondering if an individual being treated with a learning or mental disability such as ADHD or Bipolar ineligible to admission to a medical school. I would imagine that it would be an irrelevant issue, but i'm having a hard time finding answer. Thanks.

[mattg]

i'm guessing there are a lot of doctors/med students with adhd

[rmorelan]

Quick question, I was wondering if an individual being treated with a learning or mental disability such as ADHD or Bipolar ineligible to admission to a medical school. I would imagine that it would be an irrelevant issue, but i'm having a hard time finding answer. Thanks.

 

No one on the basis of their disability directly is disallowed to becoming a doctor but there are key requirements for the job that have to be met regardless of anything else that do have to be achievable - none these are specifically unreachable due to the conditions you mention though. Actually I know of at least one person with ADHD who is in medical school - the primary problem is getting high enough GPA really with the condition.

 

For instance of where a disability might get in the way, to pass the liciencing exams you have to be able to conduct a physical exam and communicate with your patients. Complete lack of vision probably would exclude that and a certain level of manual dexterity is required as well.

[mizz.lee]

There is absolutely no way they could screen you for psychiatric or medical conditions and deny entry on that basis. You should look at the OMSAS website though, there's a pdf with the essential skills and abilities for medicine that are required to become a doctor. I'm not sure at what point those are assessed, and it might not be until the licensing exam.

[UTPEOPLE]

serious bipolar disorder or mental illnesses might mean that you cant be a doctor though... because the safety of the patients comes first

[estairella]

For instance of where a disability might get in the way, to pass the liciencing exams you have to be able to conduct a physical exam and communicate with your patients. Complete lack of vision probably would exclude that and a certain level of manual dexterity is required as well.

 

Blind Physicians disagree with you

http://www.westernu.edu/xp/edu/cdihp/cdihp-resources-profiles-blind.xml

 

There's also a medical student (I forget which school) in a wheelchair, and I'm sure she has difficulties with many physical exams we take for granted.

 

Anyways, it's illegal to discriminate against someone because of their disabilities. Given the breadth of specialties possible, I fail to see why there couldn't be a place for someone who isn't strong in some areas but stronger in other areas.

 

Like someone who's bipolar probably shouldn't become a psychiatrist, but why couldn't they be a surgeon? Who gives a s*** if they're happy or sad in the OR? Similarly, if you're blind you probably won't be great doing surgery, but you might become a decent endocrinologist where a history and lab values are much more important than physical exams. (And your secretary or nurse could make you any notes about the visual aspects of the patient).

[Mourning Cloak]

Like someone who's bipolar probably shouldn't become a psychiatrist, but why couldn't they be a surgeon? Who gives a s*** if they're happy or sad in the OR?

 

Actually, bipolar disorder is much more than being happy or sad. Manic phases are characterized by psychologic instability (to a varying degree) and may include inflated self-esteem and tendency towards risky behaviours. Definitely not what I'd want in a surgeon. But, as in all things, if the disorder is successfully treated, it still may be possible to practice safely.

 

Similarly, if you're blind you probably won't be great doing surgery, but you might become a decent endocrinologist where a history and lab values are much more important than physical exams.

 

You still need to be able to examine your patients. History and physical exam are always paramount, no matter how many lab tests you do. Graves disease, Cushing's disease (syndrome), pituitary gigantism - there are tons of visual clues in virtually every specialty that a physician needs to be able to interpret correctly. You might be able to muddle through, but you wouldn't be as good an endocrinologist as the equivalent sighted person.

 

That's not to say you couldn't be a physician if blind - medical biochemistry, community health/epidemiology and possibly psychiatry would be viable options. How important is being able to read your patient's facial/ body language in psychiatry? I don't know. Similarly, physical disabilities might not preclude specialities like radiology and surgical pathology. (There's an old joke about a radiologist being able to do his job with one functioning eye . . . one eye to see the film, and blink out the report in morse code

[rmorelan]

They aren't disagreeing with me, they are disagreeing with some of the Canadian schools guidelines and their disagreements are not without justification. In Ontario some of the requirements:

 

Technical Standards for Students in the MD Program

A candidate for the MD degree must demonstrate the following abilities:

 

Observation

 

A student must be able to participate in learning situations that require skills in observation. In particular, a student must be able to accurately observe a patient and acquire visual, auditory and tactile information.

 

This would seem to automatically exclude both the totally deaf and blind.

 

One of the big problems with our current system is that is quite restrictive in some ways. If you have no hands for instance it is very unlikely you can become a surgeon (I say unlikely because the robotics work going on is changing things - ) but other branches there would be less of an issue. Still our entire system forces you to go through all of the stages - part of me always wondered what was the point other than giving the soon to be doctor a chance to try out the various field in order to pick one - which forces the question what if they already know what they want to do

 

One thing to be careful about - it is not illegal to restrict access to a something if that person is not capable of doing the job. Society actually does that all the time - colour blind restrictions on pilots come to mind as an obvious example. It's our old ethical problem of personal rights/freedoms versus the public good appearing again - might make a good ethics question on a med interview actually. Anyway this should not be used as some blank statement to never try and accommodate people - which would be stupid as there are a huge number of things that should and can be done - but rather that there are minimum standards that have to be objectively reached.

 

and as someone points out bipolar is actually a big problem in any field (but can be treated). The manic phase would actually be the worse part - a surgeon would be completely reckless during that phase. Very dangerous!

 

Blind Physicians disagree with you

http://www.westernu.edu/xp/edu/cdihp/cdihp-resources-profiles-blind.xml

 

There's also a medical student (I forget which school) in a wheelchair, and I'm sure she has difficulties with many physical exams we take for granted.

 

Anyways, it's illegal to discriminate against someone because of their disabilities. Given the breadth of specialties possible, I fail to see why there couldn't be a place for someone who isn't strong in some areas but stronger in other areas.

 

Like someone who's bipolar probably shouldn't become a psychiatrist, but why couldn't they be a surgeon? Who gives a s*** if they're happy or sad in the OR? Similarly, if you're blind you probably won't be great doing surgery, but you might become a decent endocrinologist where a history and lab values are much more important than physical exams. (And your secretary or nurse could make you any notes about the visual aspects of the patient).

[future_doc]

It's our old ethical problem of personal rights/freedoms versus the public good appearing again - might make a good ethics question on a med interview actually.

 

Yes. I would think that when public health and safety, i.e., lives, are involved, personal rights would take a back seat, just as is the case when we go through security at the airport which is about to be much more invasive for the protection of the public.

[rmorelan]

Yes. I would think that when public health and safety, i.e., lives, are involved, personal rights would take a back seat, just as is the case when we go through security at the airport which is about to be much more invasive for the protection of the public.

 

Yeah but it is the grey area that is interesting. I mean to what extent would you give up your personal rights in such regards - how far should we let them go? hehehe, another thread topic most likely

[apache]

to quote an eminent psychiatrist from u of t... there's **** loads of bp dr's, not so many schizophrenic ones though

 

Quick question, I was wondering if an individual being treated with a learning or mental disability such as ADHD or Bipolar ineligible to admission to a medical school. I would imagine that it would be an irrelevant issue, but i'm having a hard time finding answer. Thanks.

[rmorelan]

to quote an eminent psychiatrist from u of t... there's **** loads of bp dr's, not so many schizophrenic ones though

 

hey they brought that up in class! One benefit of the long education process is that schizophrenic tends to become obvious before completion of everything. Means it is rarer for a schizophrenic doctor to exist.

[w8kg6]

Hey, just to answer the OP's question, there is nothing at all that would inhibit you from becoming a doc. Many of the other conditions that other posters have mentioned don't fall under the umbrella term "Learning Disability". While there are certain disabilities that would inhibit you from being a doctor, learning disabilities are not one of them. In fact, I have a slight LD that makes me take a bit longer to copy notes off the board than my other students (it's never really inhibited me, but it's been diagnosed, nonetheless). Premeds with LDs can become MDs.

[AndreaM]

Where does the spectrum with learning disability and simple unintelligence fall?

 

I have always thought it was discriminatory. I'm not complaining for myself, I can manage and I do well in school. But my friends in the same class, who can't remember during the exam what comes after the isomerase step of glycolysis, they're the ones being ripped off. Why isn't being "stupid" a learning disability, they should get extra time to because they're not as smart as everyone else?

 

To quote my Abnormal Psych text, a learning disability is:

 

"inadequte development in a specific area of academic, language, speech, or motor skills that is not due to mental retardation, autism, a demonstrable physical disorder, or deficient educational opportunities. Children with these disorders are usually of average or above-average intelligence but have difficulty learning some specific skill (e.g., arithmetic or reading), and thus their progress in school is impeded."

 

A person with a learning disability has the intelligence to learn what they need to know, but some stumbling block to learning it, so given the appropriate adaptive measures (word recognition software for someone with dyslexia, speech recognition software for someone with dysgraphia, etc.) they are able to learn and use the material. Being able to learn and use the material is the difference between someone with a learning disability, or other type of disability, and someone who is (as you put it) "stupid".

 

Someone with dyslexia who is highly intelligent could still become a fantastic doctor, engineer, mathematician or anything else, but someone who is unable to memorize facts, or learn and understand complex ideas and concepts probably could not. Tests in school are designed to find out what a student has learned. If someone has not learned the material (no matter what the reason) they should not be given a good grade, but if that person needs some adaptive measure (longer time, oral examination, adaptive software) to show their understanding of the material, that is a different matter.

 

It isn't discriminatory to provide adaptive measures for someone to demonstrate their mastery of the material they are learning, but I can understand how at first glance it can look that way.

[estairella]

Tests in school are designed to find out what a student has learned. If someone has not learned the material (no matter what the reason) they should not be given a good grade, but if that person needs some adaptive measure (longer time, oral examination, adaptive software) to show their understanding of the material, that is a different matter.

 

That may be true in an ideal world, but I'm sure you'll agree most tests are not like that. I don't personally have trouble finishing exams but I know many students who do, and they have to guess or rush on the last few questions.

 

How does guessing demonstrate what they know? It doesn't. So there is an intrinsic part of most tests that is only examining your test-taking ability.

 

From that perspective I could see how it'd be frustrating for those who struggle to complete exams on time, to see others get more time because they have a certain label.

 

Tests are also designed for regurgitation. If you're very slow at regurgitating information (learning disability) that doesn't mean you don't understand the material, but if you're great at regurgitating information (a pro test-taker) that also doesn't mean you understand the material.

 

Key in point: for our biochemistry exam we had to label all the amino acids. I knew that they would use the same slide in the exam as in our notes, but with the labels removed. So I simply remembered the order the amino acids were in and created a mnemonic on it, instead of actually remembering anything about the amino acid radical groups (I only know glycine is the simplest and cysteine has the -SH for disulfide bonds).

[Robin Hood]

Blind Physicians disagree with you

http://www.westernu.edu/xp/edu/cdihp/cdihp-resources-profiles-blind.xml

 

There's also a medical student (I forget which school) in a wheelchair, and I'm sure she has difficulties with many physical exams we take for granted.

 

Anyways, it's illegal to discriminate against someone because of their disabilities. Given the breadth of specialties possible, I fail to see why there couldn't be a place for someone who isn't strong in some areas but stronger in other areas.

 

Like someone who's bipolar probably shouldn't become a psychiatrist, but why couldn't they be a surgeon? Who gives a s*** if they're happy or sad in the OR? Similarly, if you're blind you probably won't be great doing surgery, but you might become a decent endocrinologist where a history and lab values are much more important than physical exams. (And your secretary or nurse could make you any notes about the visual aspects of the patient).

 

Yes, it's not illegal. Imagine someone with intellectual disability wanting to become a doctor, even if he managed to have the required GPA (which is nearly impossible), he won't be able to become a doctor, and excluding him will not be bad.

[hking03]

Robin hood jumps in and bumps a 12 month old thread

[Robin Hood]

Robin hood jumps in and bumps a 12 month old thread

 

In another forum I visit, there was once a member who dumped threads going back to ~2007.

[future_doc]

People get bored after midnight.

[Robin Hood]

People get bored after midnight.

 

But the subject is interesting. People frequently ask: can people with X disability become doctors?

[hking03]

To be clear, I meant no offence by my last post. Just thought it was funny digging this one up.

 

And yes, it is an interesting subject.

[apache]

i've been told by the psychiatrist who specializes in adhd here she'd hack that 15 percent of er docs have inattentive type add, because it doesn't have the impulsivity and trouble-making associated with the more predominant impulsive or hyperactive subtype young males it goes undiagnosed in childhood, and there's a typical pattern of doing well in elementary, doing horribly in the rest of their schooling (because of the structure, disinteresting subjects perhaps, finding homework boring and tedious but excelling on exams), but excelling in university if they study a subject they're really interested in, since inattentive type add isn't really a lack of attention, but an inability to regulate it, these people can't pay their bills, be on time for engagements, pay attention to things that well, they find boring... but when they find something that interests or stimulates them they develop hyperfocus (often these are creative things, but it varies with everyone), and if medicine is that pony that they find really interesting, it works well once they get into residency since they typically see something new every 5-10 minutes, i remember an er doc that ran up to me and was like whoa, you gotta see this when i was taking a social history, pulled me out of the room and dragged me to see some procedure, while exclaiming isn't that cool so loud that the patient heard! i have no doubt he had adhd.

 

you can also develop study techniques like pacing when you study, taking study breaks every 10 minutes to do 10 push ups or a bit of house work, study 4 different lectures at a time, labelling where you put everything, every day, every time, so you don't lose notes things etc., using a reverse clock on ur watch (for a two hour test, it counts down the two hours, instead of going 2-4). as you can probably guess, i have pretty hardcore add, the reason i know so much random crap is because i can't read a topic for more than 20 minutes, unless it's really interesting, then i can read it for 6 hours straight, so in undergrad id study 4 topics (and i'd have to take really different topics: witchcraft and the occult, violent weather, lol, with my organic chemistry) at once in 20 minutes intervals with 10 minute breaks for exercise and try and hit 3 in a row, then do this 3 times a day for a total of 3 hours studying a day in 9 chunked periods. i got a 3.8, won 25 scholarships, and a bunch of other random bs and failed a bunch of high school courses, the key was finding adaptive ways to get around (and take advantage of) a disability (which isn't really how i think of it, its just a different personality trait, which has a **** load of advantages (in marketing, public speaking, consulting, trial law, possibly medicine, engineering research (who do you think google hires?) and academia in general (again... if you do something you're interested in) just like people with ocd personalities have advantages in accounting, contract law, clerical work, statistics)

 

so really, yes, people with add (x learning disability) can become doctors, but they have to choose their specialty very carefully (psychiatry and er were the only ones i was ever truly interested in, psych for the content and job, er for the job) which is probably why i disliked medicine... i still know more psychopharmacology and psychotherapeutic modalities than most psychiatrists and less anatomy than an undergrad that took a 200 level anatomy course and got a d (or even a d+) in it, lol)

 

But the subject is interesting. People frequently ask: can people with X disability become doctors?

[Robin Hood]

i've been told by the psychiatrist who specializes in adhd here she'd hack that 15 percent of er docs have inattentive type add, because it doesn't have the impulsivity and trouble-making associated with the more predominant impulsive or hyperactive subtype young males it goes undiagnosed in childhood, and there's a typical pattern of doing well in elementary, doing horribly in the rest of their schooling (because of the structure, disinteresting subjects perhaps, finding homework boring and tedious but excelling on exams), but excelling in university if they study a subject they're really interested in, since inattentive type add isn't really a lack of attention, but an inability to regulate it, these people can't pay their bills, be on time for engagements, pay attention to things that well, they find boring... but when they find something that interests or stimulates them they develop hyperfocus (often these are creative things, but it varies with everyone), and if medicine is that pony that they find really interesting, it works well once they get into residency since they typically see something new every 5-10 minutes, i remember an er doc that ran up to me and was like whoa, you gotta see this when i was taking a social history, pulled me out of the room and dragged me to see some procedure, while exclaiming isn't that cool so loud that the patient heard! i have no doubt he had adhd.

 

you can also develop study techniques like pacing when you study, taking study breaks every 10 minutes to do 10 push ups or a bit of house work, study 4 different lectures at a time, labelling where you put everything, every day, every time, so you don't lose notes things etc., using a reverse clock on ur watch (for a two hour test, it counts down the two hours, instead of going 2-4). as you can probably guess, i have pretty hardcore add, the reason i know so much random crap is because i can't read a topic for more than 20 minutes, unless it's really interesting, then i can read it for 6 hours straight, so in undergrad id study 4 topics (and i'd have to take really different topics: witchcraft and the occult, violent weather, lol, with my organic chemistry) at once in 20 minutes intervals with 10 minute breaks for exercise and try and hit 3 in a row, then do this 3 times a day for a total of 3 hours studying a day in 9 chunked periods. i got a 3.8, won 25 scholarships, and a bunch of other random bs and failed a bunch of high school courses, the key was finding adaptive ways to get around (and take advantage of) a disability (which isn't really how i think of it, its just a different personality trait, which has a **** load of advantages (in marketing, public speaking, consulting, trial law, possibly medicine, engineering research (who do you think google hires?) and academia in general (again... if you do something you're interested in) just like people with ocd personalities have advantages in accounting, contract law, clerical work, statistics)

 

so really, yes, people with add (x learning disability) can become doctors, but they have to choose their specialty very carefully (psychiatry and er were the only ones i was ever truly interested in, psych for the content and job, er for the job) which is probably why i disliked medicine... i still know more psychopharmacology and psychotherapeutic modalities than most psychiatrists and less anatomy than an undergrad that took a 200 level anatomy course and got a d (or even a d+) in it, lol)

 

Thank you! What kills me is the reading, sometimes I can't straightly read for 1-5 minutes, even in subjects that interest me. I failed Bio 2 (Physiologie animale et vegetale) 2 times eventhough I'm really interested in the matter and I like studying. I will see a psychiatrist (psychologists can't prescribe medicament, and it will cost 1000-2000 here in Montreal), but I'm waiting for him to call me, it could go till October.

If I really have ADHD, they I would have the hyperactive or mixed type.

As for medical specialities, both GP and Psychiatry interest me (will decide if I get into med).

One of the things I hate with most with invisible disabilities is that people will easily assume your faking it up (even if you feel like you have a problem, they wouldn't listen on purpose and like to assume that your normal but acting lazy.)

As for the thread's original question: yes, people with learning disabilities/ADHD can get into med. But in the post you quoted, I wasn't only talking about learning disabilities. There are people with other disabilities who may ask the same question, and I find this to be an interesting subject.

[apache]

if you think you have adhd (there's a bunch of subtypes) you should really see a psychologist (i had like an 8 hour evaluation with a psychologist that focussed on learning disabilities that was uber thorough) as they're trained to assess for adhd extremely well and can give you extremely specific advice and to be honest most psychiatrists don't know jack **** about adhd beyond it's most common manifestations, which even teachers can pick up. if you see a psychiatrist for adhd i'd recommend trying to get a booking for child psychiatrist as they're trained far more extensively in learning disabilities, and a lot see adults... although they're really in short supply unfortunately. also try going to the learning centre in your school and asking for names of adult psychiatrists who specialize in adhd (there's only one or two here)

 

the reason i mention it is because people think meds are the key to treatment, but there's so infinitely more (i don't take meds, don't care for the side effects) you can also do besides just popping a ritalin.

 

try picking up a book by edward hallowell, he's sort of the "public expert" on adult adhd... driven from distraction is an extremely good book and will point out subtle nuances about things people with adhd do that you'll never see in the dsm or a standard adult psychiatry book... some of it felt like i was reading my biography, lol... it also gives lots of practical advise about exercise (with specific programs shown to be effective for increasing attention and reducing symptoms, diet, study and sleep habits and all sorts of other stuff.

 

hope you find out a solution... and with non learning disabilities, i totally think people can be doctors, they just have to choose a specialty that caters to their disability (people with motor problems may consider radiology for example)

 

Thank you! What kills me is the reading, sometimes I can't straightly read for 1-5 minutes, even in subjects that interest me. I failed Bio 2 (Physiologie animale et vegetale) 2 times eventhough I'm really interested in the matter and I like studying. I will see a psychiatrist (psychologists can't prescribe medicament, and it will cost 1000-2000 here in Montreal), but I'm waiting for him to call me, it could go till October.

If I really have ADHD, they I would have the hyperactive or mixed type.

As for medical specialities, both GP and Psychiatry interest me (will decide if I get into med).

One of the things I hate with most with invisible disabilities is that people will easily assume your faking it up (even if you feel like you have a problem, they wouldn't listen on purpose and like to assume that your normal but acting lazy.)

As for the thread's original question: yes, people with learning disabilities/ADHD can get into med. But in the post you quoted, I wasn't only talking about learning disabilities. There are people with other disabilities who may ask the same question, and I find this to be an interesting subject.

[Robin Hood]

Saw the doctor, he gave me a medication to help for sleeping to see if it's only a sleep disorder. I managed to sleep well Saturday and Monday (not on Sunday because I think I took it too early). I can better sleep now and I don't fell tired, but still can't study without feeling fatigue in my head. He told me to take an appointment for next month.

As for a neuropsychologist, my cegep doesn't give insurance. If I get into UdeM (Universite de Montreal) next semester, I will see if they cover it. Plus, the neuropsy can't give medication.

 

if you think you have adhd (there's a bunch of subtypes) you should really see a psychologist (i had like an 8 hour evaluation with a psychologist that focussed on learning disabilities that was uber thorough) as they're trained to assess for adhd extremely well and can give you extremely specific advice and to be honest most psychiatrists don't know jack **** about adhd beyond it's most common manifestations, which even teachers can pick up. if you see a psychiatrist for adhd i'd recommend trying to get a booking for child psychiatrist as they're trained far more extensively in learning disabilities, and a lot see adults... although they're really in short supply unfortunately. also try going to the learning centre in your school and asking for names of adult psychiatrists who specialize in adhd (there's only one or two here)

 

the reason i mention it is because people think meds are the key to treatment, but there's so infinitely more (i don't take meds, don't care for the side effects) you can also do besides just popping a ritalin.

 

try picking up a book by edward hallowell, he's sort of the "public expert" on adult adhd... driven from distraction is an extremely good book and will point out subtle nuances about things people with adhd do that you'll never see in the dsm or a standard adult psychiatry book... some of it felt like i was reading my biography, lol... it also gives lots of practical advise about exercise (with specific programs shown to be effective for increasing attention and reducing symptoms, diet, study and sleep habits and all sorts of other stuff.

 

hope you find out a solution... and with non learning disabilities, i totally think people can be doctors, they just have to choose a specialty that caters to their disability (people with motor problems may consider radiology for example)