What is your opinion on uofT's life science program?

[mechanics]

Is it really true what most people say about it? That, most people who enroll in that program never have the GPA needed to meet the cut-offs for med-school? I've been reading on other forums and this one in the older archives about it, and even know an old friend I graduated with who's in his third year and already gave up med-school and is planning to restart his undergrad in engineering. This was a guy who had a 95 average in high-school.

 

Is it really true that Ad-com views a 4.0 from brock and a 4.0 from uofT as the same?

[future_doc]

Is it really true that Ad-com views a 4.0 from brock and a 4.0 from uofT as the same?

 

A 4.0 is a 4.0 is a 4.0! The name of the Canadian university from which you graduate is irrelevant. So, if you are going for bragging rights, you are off course already and are minimizing your chances. Proceed with caution.

[mechanics]

A 4.0 is a 4.0 is a 4.0! The name of the Canadian university from which you graduate is irrelevant. So, if you are going for bragging rights, you are off course already and are minimizing your chances. Proceed with caution.

Even though this is true, why do as many as 500-600 students go to UofT as pre-med only to have as less as 50 to get interviews at medical schools (met the GPA cut-offs)? With statistics like that, aren't they just digging their graves?

[future_doc]

With statistics like that, aren't they just digging their graves?

 

Absolutely, they are doing that. However, they feel that U/T is the best, most prestigious, pressure from their parents, bragging rights, if they can get in why go to a so-called no name university like Ryerson, York or a smaller university. They don't understand, they refuse to believe, like a deer caught in the headlights of an o ncoming car, they don't know any better snd so, they become statistical casualties and they do it to themselves!

 

Just as you question the truth, they refuse to believe.

[mechanics]

Absolutely, they are doing that. However, they feel that U/T is the best, most prestigious, pressure from their parents, bragging rights, if they can get in why go to a so-called no name university like Ryerson, York or a smaller university. They don't understand, they refuse to believe, like a deer caught in the headlights of an o ncoming car, they don't know any better snd so, they become statistical casualties and they do it to themselves!

 

Just as you question the truth, they refuse to believe.

 

Even when they hear the warnings from senior students who also dreamed of med-school, only to be shattered by the curve? And that life-science degree is as useless as a philosophy one, so if they don't get into med-school or (grad-school) they have very few options and would have to work retail.

[future_doc]

I know of many knoweldgable parents, aware of this, who guide their kids entering undergrad to the smaller no-name universities so as to maximize their chances of obtaining a seat in medicine.

[HBP]

It's not that bad.

 

You either have to work really really hard, or just be naturally smart to get grades.

[future_doc]

I am not naturally that smart and at a no name university, I need to work really really hard to get those As.

[future_doc]

ssd, you are giving excellent advice. And Morzan, who looked into this last year, is now a frosh at York.

[Apixaban85]

People have to understand that UofT's amazing prestige and what not doesn't come from their undergrad Life Science program. It's the grad programs that propel UofT up the charts

[future_doc]

Yes, the so-called prestige factor is a meaningless distraction for undergrads that leads them down a path most regret after it is too late.

[GGGSaint]

Agree with HBP, it's not too bad. However, I have no doubt that most students (including myself) who went through U of T life science would have done no worse, and probably significantly better, at most other universities in any program aside from engineering (I don't consider that pre-med either).

 

Unless you came out of UT w/ a 3.95+ then whatever GPA you did have is probably deflated in comparison to what it could have been.

 

In the end, though, no one cares .

[future_doc]

In the end, though, no one cares

 

As long as you get into medicine - otherwise you care!

[s5260205]

Is everyone here refering to the life science in the downtown campus??

 

'cause from the comparison between myself and my high school friends, I feel like the Scarborough campus is much chill in terms of course work. Also, the chemistry TA told us that she has never heard of bell curving down (only up) for all her classes. It's just my first year, though.

[panda__eyes]

I don't think we can or should generalize U of T's life science program. For one, there are many programs within the umbrella term, "life science" and understandably, a certain number of these programs will be harder than others. We also need to consider the number of people attending U of T - there is quite a lot! With that said, it's also quite understandable that many people may not be able to meet the cut-off for medical school. Also, aside from U of T's programs and professors, getting a high GPA also depends on the student - the student's ability to absorb/understand/apply information, to adapt to a university setting, to adapt to the expectations of different professors/courses, to strike a balance between work and fun, etc. Medical school, itself, is also quite different from undergrad. There are so many factors that come into play and placing an emphasis on the school does not seem entirely reasonable or fair.

 

And there are also differences between the 3 U of T Campuses. I only went to the downtown campus so my comments are referring only to the St. George Campus.

[Leon]

Is everyone here refering to the life science in the downtown campus??

 

'cause from the comparison between myself and my high school friends, I feel like the Scarborough campus is much chill in terms of course work. Also, the chemistry TA told us that she has never heard of bell curving down (only up) for all her classes. It's just my first year, though.

 

Wait for the mid terms and CHMB42 next year. I'm chilling pretty much right now too, as the first exam is still 2 weeks away. After that.................

 

There is no negative belling. However, if the prof feels the mid term average is too high, he will make the final very difficult to bring it down. If it drops too much, he will bell it to a (usually) C+ average.

[s5260205]

Just a side note...

 

Is it common for professors to teach the very basics and give you horribly difficult questions on exams??

[rmorelan]

Just a side note...

 

Is it common for professors to teach the very basics and give you horribly difficult questions on exams??

 

sometimes that does happen I am afraid. Often in the name of integration of material.

[repede]

Forgive me, long post here, but I think it'll be useful for those unsure of going to UofT or not.

 

I'm a current UofT St. George undergrad in 4th year, and I can tell you it's pretty darn brutal. When you consider that almost everyone comes into UofT with a high school average of over 90, and the class average at the end of 1st year general chemistry is a C (65%) AFTER half the class drops, it tells you something.

 

While I haven't taken any undergrad science courses at other school, sometimes I wonder if there is a difference in difficulty from other big schools (UBC, Queens, Western, etc). I was the top of all my science and math classes in high school. Even so, I was humbled a bit in 1st and 2nd years, though I was still able to pull off decent grades. Some of my friends at other schools, who struggled in high school Chemistry and Calculus, said they aced those courses in 1st year because it was all the same as high school.

 

Part of it probably has to do with UofT's Year system as opposed to semesters or terms. Being tested on everything from September to May in Physics (PHY138) is a huge difference from being tested on one semester. Even if tests are not cumulative, it means you can't "start fresh" in January and you're stuck trying to bring up low mark if you didn't perform well in 1st semester. However, it seems like the school is making a push towards half-year courses now (1st year Physics and 2nd year Biology are now split into half-year courses).

 

Many people claim otherwise, but I'm pretty sure that there IS some kind of grade depression here, at least for 1st/2nd year courses. In at least 3 of my classes, the TAs have alluded the professor having to write a letter to the dean explaining why the class averages are "high" (70%). My friend's Physiology (PSL302) prof purposely lowered everyone's grade a few % lower (that, or cancelled the "bonus"-but-mandatory quizzes) because the average was too high. It's not every course; I have courses in which the average at the end was a B- (70-72%).

 

That being said...

 

I wouldn't trade my undergrad experience for any other school. Yes, it's a big school, which means huge competition, and sometimes it's easy to feel like "just a number" among the other 2500 Life Science students in 1st and 2nd year. However, big school also means big opportunity. I haven't heard of any other Canadian school having a specific "research opportunity program" (ROP299) for 2nd years to get exposed to research. After 3rd year, I got a 12-month full-time internship through their Professional Experience Year (PEY) program, which is usually only for Engineers but is expanding to other fields (e.g. Pharmacology/Toxicology).

 

Professors are generally quite reasonable, and the quality of teaching is very high. Past 2nd year, if you're in a Specialist program, you'll probably get to know some profs in your department. Exams for me have been fair, but you have to make sure you understand the material like the back of your hand. Don't just know how to answer the practice questions or memorize the lecture notes, know how to apply and use it. Many students complain about it, but I'll give you an example...

 

In Physical Chemistry (CHM220), we were asked to calculuate something about the lowest energy "pi" electron in some molecule. Most people (including me) were careless and used n = 1, since that's the lowest possible overall orbital. But only 1 person the class got the question right, because the lowest pi electron is in n = 2. There was all this fuss about having to know about LUMO and HOMO, and not being taught about it in class. But why do you need to know that? To answer the question, you don't.

 

It feels to me like UofT St. George weeds out the bottom 50% of undergrads and kills their dreams. But if you're in the top 10%, the world's your oyster. You just have to push yourself and seek out the opportunity. That also means challenging yourself with hard courses - I got hired through PEY because I took Atmospheric Chemistry (CHM415) and Instrumental Analysis (CHM317), which has a 4-hour weekly lab and 50-page lab reports, as my electives instead of bird courses. I'm going to be realistic and say that you can't just be book-smart to do well. You have to be a bit daring and enjoy a challenge, and have the perseverance to overcome whatever they throw at you.

 

If you're aiming for Med and are unsure of the challenge/competition, I suggest going to another school. But if you think you can handle it, UofT St. George is a great place for undergrad and you'll surely develop a great deal as a person.

 

Check back with me next year, because I may say otherwise; my GPA isn't as high as it could be, so fingers crossed that I'll get an interview somewhere...

 

Also, keep in mind that this is MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. It could be different for those in other programs.

[DeWinged]

I agree with the above post. If you excel at UofT, and I mean really excel, you won't have a problem later on.

 

I remember my cousin who went through the UT life sci program and did only decently (GPA low 3.70) but good enough to get off the waitlist for medical school at Queens. He is in his fourth year and claims that he and other UofT UG alumni are excelling in it. Some of his friends who went to other easier university and got better GPAs than him (UWO, Mac Health Sci, Ottawa, York) are struggling to keep up...he even told me a story about a former Mac Health Sci student with a 4.0 OMSAS average literally being put on academic probation during preclerkship and being called "incompetent" in front of others by an attending during their family medicine block. I can't tell you if the story is true but if it is and its probably exaggerated and doesn't represent the entire population.

 

Some people choose to cruise after getting in, some don't. This doesn't really have anything to do with where they received their undergraduate education.

 

I have heard stories about how undergraduate studies, especially life-sci, are taught in similar fashions across the country. It is just the method of assessment that differs. If a student chooses to learn, due to an genuine interest and not "GPA pressure", I am confident that s/he will excel no matter where s/he went for undergrad.

[Apixaban85]

Wait for the mid terms and CHMB42 next year. I'm chilling pretty much right now too, as the first exam is still 2 weeks away. After that.................

 

There is no negative belling. However, if the prof feels the mid term average is too high, he will make the final very difficult to bring it down. If it drops too much, he will bell it to a (usually) C+ average.

 

CHMB42 = awesome

 

And the midterm easy/final hard happens quite a bit at UTSC: Statistics and Mammalian Physiology (3rd year) come in mind

[deeman101]

From personal experience uoft lifesci is brutal. If you want to do well you have to put up with the typical uoft BS, sacrifice a large portion of your social life and sanity, and (my personal favourite) learn how to game the system quickly. After my experience at uoft (human biology program) preclerkship in med school is not bad so far. We got waaayyy more detail about stuff drilled into us at the UG level than at the med level. Cause (surprise!) you don't actually need to know the exact transfer mechanism of electrons that goes on in cytochrome bc1 to be a good doc! But yea my UG backing is definitely helped me chill out more in med. I've had decent exposure to everything I've been taught so far.

 

Is everyone here refering to the life science in the downtown campus??

 

'cause from the comparison between myself and my high school friends, I feel like the Scarborough campus is much chill in terms of course work. Also, the chemistry TA told us that she has never heard of bell curving down (only up) for all her classes. It's just my first year, though.

 

Profs DO bell down. The prof for the biological physics courses at UTSC has bell'd down last year, and will probably do it again. Is he allowed to do it? No. But none of the 1st years know when they are getting shafted and so none of them speak up. The TAs generally don't care or don't have the backing of anyone to stop this. The chair will never back a TA against a prof. (thats premium grade uoft BS right there for ya)

[Leon]

Profs DO bell down. The prof for the biological physics courses at UTSC has bell'd down last year, and will probably do it again. Is he allowed to do it? No. But none of the 1st years know when they are getting shafted and so none of them speak up. The TAs generally don't care or don't have the backing of anyone to stop this. The chair will never back a TA against a prof. (thats premium grade uoft BS right there for ya)

 

Wouldn't it become quickly obvious if someone orders their exam to view and adds up the marks?

The SCSU just put up a sheet outside their office, stating student rights. My favourite so far is "The course instructor cannot change the course syllabus after first day of classes" or something like that.

[future_doc]

You have to know your rights, know what to do. In another university, a prof tried to change the rules and fail a student. The s tudent then went to the ombudsperson who gave the wrong advice and the student kknew this. He went to the Dept Chair, made his representations and got his pass. My point: the prof deliberately broke the rules to unfairly fail a student and thought he was going to get away with it - he almost did, but the student played the game better. It should not come down to games, in theory, profs are there to educate and help students, not to ambush them, this is not always the case in practice.

[deeman101]

Wouldn't it become quickly obvious if someone orders their exam to view and adds up the marks?

The SCSU just put up a sheet outside their office, stating student rights. My favourite so far is "The course instructor cannot change the course syllabus after first day of classes" or something like that.

 

LMAO! There are so many ways for profs to get around that. One is by only letting you view it during a certain time. If you dispute they'll say you calculated back from your final grade incorrectly. Another is by showing only the written part and not the MC part (so you think you did crap on the MC). And the third is by literally not letting you. I know a girl that requested an exam for months and months and months and was finally told her exam could not be found (their obligation is to hold the exams for 12 months from the test date). She couldn't do anything about it.

 

Actually I remember there are certain psych courses that also bell'd down. I was in one of them. But by that point I didn't really care to argue with profs anymore.