Feedback from Ottawa

[Guest just browsing]

The real question is why does Ottawa need to go so far down the waiting list? 271 offers for 123 spots. That means more than half of those people decline Ottawa's offer. Isn't that unusual? Is Ottawa med considered 2nd class to other med schools in Ontario? I'm a little surprised by these numbers considering Ottawa's preference for francophones and Ottawa-area residents. What the deal here?

[Guest just browsing]

I don't believe that for a second and your post is laced with bitterness and contrived stereotypes. Adversity is the foundation of virtue. You go, Peter!!

[Guest Tommy Lee]

Hey Matt

 

I was curious, you said you did two undergrad degrees?

 

What was your GPA in degree 1 and GPA in degree 2?

 

Did you do a 4 year degree then another 4 year degree?

 

Provide the answers and I can discuss my experiences with two undergrad degrees. There is a lot of flexibility with two degrees, ie some school only count the best year from the second degree or the best two years from the recent degree etc.

 

What were the degrees in?

 

Good luck man, I'll try to help you situation out. Don't give up just yet. How old are you by the way?

 

Tommy Lee

[Guest Champ]

Dear MTWS (Matt),

 

I was in a similar boat to you. Poor grades in an undergraduate degree that was done in a past lifetime..eg 10 years ago for me. In order to improve my odds, I pursued a masters and then a doctorate in a research area that were of keen interest to me (Cardiovascular Physiology). I knew that the only way to compensate for my poor undergraduate record was to show academic productivity in quality journals. And that was my single minded goal.

 

However, even with the Phd, last year I was waitlisted at UT, but was unsuccessful. This year I made very subtle changes to my application to sharpen it. My supervisors read my essay and advised. I had a few more publications to add. My interview was completely different. Instead of showboating my academic experience (which they had in front of them), I took every possible opportunity to show that I am a normal, compassionate guy (married, strong family life). In this way I beleive that the interview added an extra dimension to their understanding of me besides my academic background.

 

If I had to make a suggestion, I will do so cautiously. But here goes.....Consider a Phd if you are interested in research still. Best case scenario, you will add 3-4 more pubs (which will increase your academic score), and perhaps be able to do more volunteering, conferences, teaching as well. Although 4 more years is a long haul, I will likely pay dividends in the future. The worst case scenario, would be that you would be able to command a greater salary as a lecturer. But you have to make that decision. I have been in full time University study since 1992, and while the prospect of another 6-10 years of education is daunting, this is simply what has to be done.

 

You asked "what do you have to do?", and I am simply telling you what I did, as I was in exactly your same situation 3 years ago.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Sincerely,

 

champ

[Guest PeterHill0501]

Koolaid,

 

Thanks for the support.

 

I must admit that while I do agree with some of your points I do not feel the bitterness nor the hopelessness that you do. I'm sorry you feel that way...I know it's a blow to the ego and upsetting to get the "bad" waitlist...I feel sorry that you are experiencing those feelings...they don't feel good.

 

I personally believe you don't have to be cookiecutter...there is value in diversity and they will see it...and they do value it...it's a matter of showing how the diversity will lead to creativity and excellence in medicine.

 

One of the most significant skills I learned over the time I was at Nortel was how to communicate to various diverse groups (e.g., senior executives, staff, administration, customers, co-workers, contractors, junior staff, etc). While you might want to communicate the same information to each group...the way you would do it most effectively varies significantly from group to group. Now that I've been through the process once...I've been listening carefully...I believe I know where I need to change my approach...not necessarily what I've done...just how I present it...what information is most important to the adcoms and how they want it packaged. I don't find that to be cookiecutter...I find that to be like every other consumer or decision-maker...just different needs and communication styles.

 

I had an interview...so my background is likely pretty much fine...I blew several things during the interview...I'll tweak and re-present next year! I know what I have experienced in life, my life balance, what motivates me, my broad knowledge base, my unique way of looking at things will be of huge value to myself learning medicine, to my classmates, to my professors, and to the medical community in general. I just have to better understand how to communicate to the adcoms these gems in terms that they appreciate and understand.

 

I won't give up on medicine...it's what I want...it's going to take many more years of rejection to cause me to re-think this goal...probably when I need a walker...that's when I'll give up I don't take the rejection personally...sure it was disappointing for a day or two...but as I've said before, people much better than me have been rejected as well. My wife, having the gold medal in genetics from Western, her RCA in piano, volunteering out the ying yang...MCAT...you want to talk about MCAT scores? etc., etc., was rejected from all schools she applied to the first year...she got in the second year to U of O.

 

Anyway, I hope you're feeling better...although it can be tough to do, try not to take the rejection personally...think of it as a product design and marketing exercise...you're the product...what they're reacting to is not the product...it's the advertising and marketing...they ARE the customer...and if you're not marketed to their liking they'll "buy" something else...

 

Peter...one million sold!

[Guest Clarification]

Mtws (Matt) was talking about UT when he said that there are about 100 people on the waitlist. UT had to send out 271 offers to fill the class. It has nothing to do with UO.

[Guest Beaver]

Hi Peter

 

Sorry that you weren't able to squeeze out a reply from Ottawa. To be honest with you Peter, its probably better that way. Now you can really think about what areas you can improve on. If someone for UofO told you change Y and change Z, you may go out and only improve in Y and Z whereas now you examine everything and bring the quality of the total package up to a new level.

 

My advice.... try, and try again and again. Medicine needs unique and talented folks like you Peter. Medicine needs people like you too Koolaid!!! Your obviously very passionate about things, but after you've had a chance to relax and reflect on the whole experience, I think you will realize that giving up isn't the road to take, never back down from challenges, that goes with any facet of life. Keep your eye on the prize and don't let anyone tell you that it can't be done.

 

Peter, one thing that worked really well for me, was laying out a very specific agenda. I thought long and hard about ten things that I wanted the panel to know about me. These were ten attributes (backed with very good examples) on what would make me the best candidate for medicine. With this focus, regardless of how the interview steered and zig zagged and sidetracked, I made sure that I clearly talked about the 10 things about myself that I wanted to discuss before the end of the interview. This way I think I appeared focused and prepared by not having to scramble about things to talk about.

 

Another suggestion (sorry Peter I hope I'm not bugging you with this stuff) I have is to engage in some volunteer or other activities where you have a chance to interact with everyday folk in a simple yet meaningful way. With all that you have accomplished, its obvious that you are well learned,worldy, and able to demonstrate achievement of greatness in corporations, research and business. That's fantastic but I think medicine is also about the common man. Day to day, its not about groundbreaking discoveries or saving a busload of people, its about a guy coming to your office middle 40's, cab driver, high school education, income 30,000/yr, with terrible diet, and predispostion to heart disease. How are you going to connect with him? Are you used to being in situations such as this? Are you able to come down to his level and communicate the health issues and resolutions? These are the types of questions the panel is thinking in their head. So Peter, its obvious from your stellar background that you can interact famously with executives and business people and i'm sure you interact famously with the common man also but this needs to be demonstrated in a tangible way to the panel. Coaching a sport is a great way to show this, volunteering to teach a course to an inner city community centre is another excellent way (I taught financial planning in Regent Park) and the list goes on of possible activities. This will show the panel, that yes Peter Hill is remarkably brilliant and has achieved a great deal of success in his life, BUT he is also completely comfortable and capable to relate and connect with people (who will likely be the majority of his patients) from other areas of the population.

 

Just my thoughts Sorry Peter, I hope you don't mind the advice, no disrespect meant by it, just some of my thoughts about the way I approached things. Hope it helps

 

Thanks Peter, Best of luck as always

 

the Beav

[Guest PeterHill0501]

Matt,

 

I was pleased to see you edited your original post. I somewhat understand (not completely as I'm not you, nor have I lived through what you've been through) how you must feel. If I were in your shoes, I'd feel pretty darn crappy right now too, especially given some of the "interesting" aspects of your particular background (e.g., current experience teaching med students neuro).

 

It is really unfortunate that you can't get some direct feedback from adcoms of the various schools as I believe, due to the number of times you've applied, there has to be something that they are flagging consistently. Have you ever considered the MD/PhD route?

 

Peter

[Guest Beaver]

There probably flagging the GPA

 

Could you teach partime Matt and take UG courses at night, and in the afternoons?

[Guest PeterHill0501]

Ouch,

 

As you may remember, I had written admissions at U of O requesting feedback and, as well, inquiring about a mixup that happened on interview day (i.e., sketch, etc., from someone of the same last name as me was inadvertently switched with mine...it was corrected before the interview but I asked whether there was any chance our evaluations also got switched by accident).

 

Well, I received a call from Dr. Hébert (I believe he is Assistant Dean of Admissions at U of O...he was also one of my interviewers) this morning and feel completely crappy as a result.

 

First of all he called and introduced himself by saying HEBERT...then he said WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? I'M TOLD YOU ARE WRITING ADMISSIONS...CONTACTING INTERVIEWERS IS A NO NO in quite a gruff voice. I said "thank-you for calling Dr. Hébert, there is no problem, I wrote the university to inquire about two things...first...on my interview day there was a mixup and I was wondering whether there was any chance that inadvertent mistake was made with respect to my evaluation." He replied, DO YOU THINK WE ARE STUPID? I replied, "I certainly didn't mean to suggest that...nor do I think it...admissions personnel are human too and can make mistakes...I was just inquiring." Then he said with respect to asking for feedback ITS A NO NO TO CONTACT YOUR INTERVIEWERS FOR FEEDBACK He continued...can you imagine how much trouble it would be to provide feedback to 400 candidates who were unsuccessful? I said, "I appreciate it would be much work, however, as a candidate it would be very helpful to understand our strengths and weaknesses for future applications." He replied that there are two problems with that...first evaluative criteria change from year to year...so improving what is wrong this year won't necessarily help for next year. Also, you've only got about 4 months to change anything before you reapply...what are you going to change to any significant degree in 4 months? He also indicated that they have chosen not to provide feedback to candidates as they believe candidates will receive the feedback with the hope of improving and getting acceptance the next year...get an interview or not the next year...receive a rejection the following year...and complain that they 'fixed' the problem and still didn't get in.

 

He also asked how many times I'd applied to Ottawa U. I indicated it was my first time. He said...you're welcome to reapply next year. He continued by saying you know that we only recommend applying here three times...we look at that very critically. I assume he meant if you apply three times and don't get in you really don't have a chance at all. He also said that if I get an interview next year, I won't have the same interviewers...I'm not sure why he said that...I know it's the practice of the university...I'm just not sure why he said it. He also indicated that I really have to write the MCAT, and apply to more than one university...he said I really have to do that...again, I'm not sure why he would say that...it wasn't really a suggestion...it sounded very much like a "must". Again, I'm not really sure what to make of this.

 

He also indicated that...you're really lucky I called you...do you think the Deans from other Universities call unsuccessful applicants? I said, "I sincerely appreciate your call, while it is unlikely they call anybody, I have been told that you can request feedback from some of the other universities and at some universities I've been told you can meet with the Dean or Assistant Dean of Admissions to go over your file and talk about possible improvements, strengths and weaknesses with the goal of improving". He said, that he talks with the Dean of U of T regularly and this doesn't happen there.

 

Wow, anyway, I felt scolded like a child. Why would they react to someone wanting feedback this way? It makes absolutely no sense to me. It makes me wonder what the atmosphere is really like at U of O and whether I'd actually want to go there anyway.

 

Peter

[Guest Koolaid]

Pompus arrogant pricks. Did I not tell everyone that the adcomms are bunch of pricks who only want people like themsleves admitted

 

 

This is classic, I just phoned the dean of admission and left a voicemail DEMANDING to be given feedback immediately as in no way is the information they obtained regarding my application considered to be the sole property of UofO. Since the info was regarding me, human rights law in Canada states that any image,description,data,credit rating or other information cannot be concealed from the individual who is source of the information. I then threatened to proceed with legal action against both the school and the Dean if the information is not shared with me by end of business today.

 

Medschool Asswipes will not ruin my life without giving me an explanation!!!!

[Guest Jas]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but do think that your actions may in some way black list your name for next year?

[Guest Snapple]

That's all it is.

Geeks got into med school, geeks become doctors and therefore, geeks interview you.

So, if you're not a geek, you don't get in.

 

I say, all of us who got rejected, get together, and start our own, private medical school, where cool cats only get in.

[Guest mtws]

First off, sorry for the confusion. I posted some info about the UofT process here, for stargirl. Didn't mean to confuse anyone.

 

Tommy Lee,

I did a 3 year Biochem concentration (A minus average) then a one year psych concentration (which I didn't quite finish- so this isn't the 2nd degree I was referring to). Psych constituted my fourth undergrad year and was my worst year (2.86). And then I did my second completed degree, honours physiology (with a neuroscience thesis project). This was my fifth year of undergrad and I again got the A minus average. Then I did my Masters in Neuroscience. I finished in the lab October 2000.

 

Since then I've been teaching. The truth of the matter is, there is no one in Ottawa studying the 'mind sciences' that I am interested in pursuing. I don't want to go back to the fume hood, microscope, dissections, cryostat, centrifuge, pipetting crap for my PhD.

 

Oh ya, I'm 29 on the 15th of June.

 

CHAMP,

Thanks for the advice. All things that I've considered but, as you can read above, I'm sort of 'stuck'. I wonder sometimes if I'd even be accepted to a PhD program at say, Oxford?

 

Plus, from Peter's post - my three times have come and gone. I guess I'm out of luck at UofO. (Wish I had have known that one a few years ago!)

 

But, (and there is a but) as they say: "when one door closes, another one opens."

I was offered an interesting promotion here at the college yesterday. It means I really shouldn't be applying to meds for 2003 but I think I'll take the job. It's not medicine, but it does

make me happy. So, "what are you gonna do".

 

Maybe it's not in the cards for me? So sad.

 

Matt

 

Thanks for all the interesting discussions. I'll keep in touch.

[Guest PeterHill0501]

Ya, I must admit Koolaid...threats like that are quite likely to get you into bad stead with the university...I would think explosive behaviour like that wouldn't be looked upon well by anybody (not only the university), even if you are the most wonderful candidate in the world. Why wouldn't you have tried a more tactful approach? People don't tend to react well to threats...

 

Peter

[Guest PeterHill0501]

Beaver,

 

Thanks so much for the feedback. While I actually have incredible experience also dealing with the "common man"...(e.g., working in a Low Vision Clinic providing clinical, diagnostic services as well as conducting vision research, conducting consumer-level research, guiding teams of product developers, etc.) I believe that the non-academic, non-business, balanced side of myself was not well communicated during my interview...the extracurriculars...the volunteering I have done...etc. This will be a major focus for next year's application.

 

You will never bug or offend me with feedback...I thrive on it. I thank you once again for your thoughtful response.

 

Talk to you soon.

 

Peter

[Guest Whatever]

Even though responding to your email is somewhat lowering myself - I feel I must. And I will do so in an answer at your level.

 

If I am a geek (which I don't think I am). I am a geek who is proudly going to med school next

 

I wish you all the luck with your privitized med school.

[Guest Habraz]

Hey guys I was just reading your messages and I also read the posting about the amazing phone call to peter from Dr. Herbert. I know of at least one case in UofO where the applicant was awarded 5 interviews in a row and got in in the fifth year. So take the 3 years rule with a grain of salt. Applying to more than one University and program is a really good idea peter and mtws. In todays competitive enviornment applying to only one progam is kind of silly (no offense intended). If you really want it you will get in. My freind applied 4 times to UofT and got in after his masters. I am applying after my PhD and got waitlisted this year at ottawa. I am rewriting the MCAT this year and I am hoping for the best for next year in which I will apply to 9 of the 13 canadian schools.

[Guest mtws]

Thanks Habraz.

Nice to know. Good luck to you.

Matt

[Guest PeterHill0501]

Habraz,

 

Thanks for the post and for the support. I agree that applying to only one program isn't optimal...but some of us do have very strong reasons for only wanting to go to one school. With respect to odds of getting in to med school, you're right, there are much better odds if one applies to more schools. On the other hand, if you are truly a good candidate...have patience...and a smidgeon of luck ...I firmly believe you will be admitted to the program you desire.

 

Peter

[Guest TimmyMax]

Hey guys,

 

I thought that the 3 times rule was for interviewing three times, not applying three times. I'm pretty sure I read that in the Ottawa blurb somewhere (off of the website). I may be wrong, but that's the impression I was going from.

 

Best of luck!

Tim

[Guest PeterHill0501]

TimmyMax,

 

Sorry to be a stickler...is there really a difference between interviewing three times and applying three times? Are you saying that if we apply more than three times we don't have to do an interview? That's excellent!

 

Peter

[Guest AA]

Just because you apply does not mean you will get an interview

[Guest Tommy Lee]

Hey Bro:

 

I'll try and summarize to see if I have got this straight (now when you say degree complete do you mean major complete?)

 

Bsc Biochemistry A-GPA

Psych MAJOUR ADDED not finished 2.86 GPA

 

2nd degree completed in 1 yr???Physiology Bsc

 

or do you mean Physiology majour added on original degree to make it an honours Bsc from the 3 yr Biochem

 

Sorry man this is quite complex

 

Anyway: Western will only consider your best plus your last year which is will be 3.7~ excellent you make the cutoff PLUS you have a Masters for some extra Fiz in the application!!

 

Queen's will take you most recent year and your masters work so again.....good as gold matt!

 

Mac, thats a tricky one but even the modertors on here say do you really want to graduate from a place where people cant tell the difference between a lung and a liver?

 

Sask: best 2 years

Calgary:b est 2 years

 

So Matt get busy bro there is work to do, what do you think?

[Guest U of O med]

Peter,

 

I just want to tell you two things about your experience with Dr. Hébert:

 

1. That is typical Dr. Hébert... 100%

2. He in no way, I mean no way represents the attitude of the other 99.9% of the staff at U of O. Trust me!

 

Don't take it too personally... if that's possible!!

 

The office might be getting an unusual amount of phone calls this year and it sounds to me as if they might be getting fed up with the calls.

 

I know how much effort you've put into your application and your life for that matter up to date to try and get in, but consider that the system doesn't really understand your position. The system therefore asks you to accept the fate they have prescribed for you without a peep!! You have to live through it to know how frustrating it can be. BUT, unfortunately that's the way it is and any changes that are to be made will most likely be made by small steps.

 

My personal position on the whole thing... no offence to anyone, is that if they say in the letter not to call then don't call!!

 

I do know how you feel Peter, nothing compares to putting your future on the cutting board and waiting for the knife!!