kylamonkey Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 I haven't seen this posted yet: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/docs-turn-unvaccinated-patients/story?id=13037217 I have pretty strong views on vaccination and some very christian family members who, with their skepticism for science in general, have debated not vaccinating. They also give homeopathy to the children, but I digress. What do you think about family docs refusing to have unvaccinated children as patients? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clever Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 If the parents don't trust vaccines, why would they trust doctors? Vaccines are not only important for the individual, but important for the population as a whole. I read an article on scientific american about an area in the states where most of the parents refused to vaccinate their children against disease X, and the prevalence of this disease reached worrisome levels. I think it said that vaccines work best when >90% of the population is vaccinated. That said, I agree with the doctors refusal of accepting non-vaccinated children as patients, but only in the hopes that this will convince the parents to get them vaccinated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellorie Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 I think it depends. If you are the only pediatrician in a small town, or if choice of doctors is not readily available, I think you still have a duty to provide care, because you may be the only/most readily available source of care. In a situation where there are many possible doctors, I think it is appropriate to refuse to treat certain patients. Factors such as the worry that they will infect your other patients, or that you will have to watch the patient die of a preventable disease could put stress on you as a physician which might impair your ability to do your job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blind_synergy Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Homeopathy is for people with more money than sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking1 Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 It is ethically sound for a paediatrician to turn away a systematically unvaccinated child as a patient. This is because the unvaccinated child poses a threat to the paediatrician's other patients, i.e. babies and children which have yet to be vaccinated. Herd immunity is a scientific fact. Its time the general populace accepts it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 While I'm pro-vaccination...both of my children have had all their shots (except for flu shots, and according to what I just suffered through, flu shots will be added to the list this year...I miss isolation!) and I would be unhappy to find out that one of their classmates is unvaccinated, but I'm not going to tell my children to avoid that child at all costs. I understand the frustration and fear that the doctor has and is trying to protect his other patients, but these children need care regardless of the idiocy of their parents. Gonna refuse patients who come in with a serious infection because they waited so long, thinking it would just go away on it's own? Gonna refuse patients who traveled to a third world country and exposed themselves to thousands of other people who are unvaccinated? I think he needs to be the better man and stop quitting on these children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking1 Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 I understand the frustration and fear that the doctor has and is trying to protect his other patients, but these children need care regardless of the idiocy of their parents. Gonna refuse patients who come in with a serious infection because they waited so long, thinking it would just go away on it's own? Gonna refuse patients who traveled to a third world country and exposed themselves to thousands of other people who are unvaccinated? I think he needs to be the better man and stop quitting on these children. This is where you break away from the news piece. He explicitly said he spent four months trying to convince the parents of this patient to get the child vaccinated. There was no emergency situation. Everyone agrees that as a doctor you should not refuse service to an emergency situation. (Although technically, you can if you are off duty; there is no ethical obligation for an off-duty doctor to assist an emergency situation.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 I broke away for that point. There is no difference. He spent 4mths hounding the parents and rather than continuing care and continuing to hope that they might smarten up, he quit. No difference than refusing stubborn patients who wait "too long" to come in from infection, burns, etc. (and I know of a patient like this...she frustrates the hell out of her doctor). Emergent or not, the children require his care just as any other patient does--ESPECIALLY because they are children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking1 Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 I broke away for that point. There is no difference. He spent 4mths hounding the parents and rather than continuing care and continuing to hope that they might smarten up, he quit. No difference than refusing stubborn patients who wait "too long" to come in from infection, burns, etc. (and I know of a patient like this...she frustrates the hell out of her doctor). Emergent or not, the children require his care just as any other patient does--ESPECIALLY because they are children. So are you suggesting that he enforce vaccination upon the child? Perhaps report the parents to the government and child services? If so, you're going to get a lot of pushback from health freedom movement people and libertarians, and will come off politically as patronizing and authoritarian. I agree, giving up on patients is bad, morally and practically. However, whats the next step? Can you prove that in a non-emergency situation a paediatrician has an ethical obligation to treat an unvaccinated child in regular practice? After all, there are other paediatricians who are willing to take the risk, and just calling the parents of the unvaccinated child idiots does not change their minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking1 Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 In all seriousness, everyone on this forum should read about Health Freedom Movement people and what they espouse, including politicians like Ron Paul. They legitimately think that deregulating the medical profession is a good idea. They imagine that all the science behind vaccines is nonsense and lies so that the government can control them. Please be aware that threatening Health Freedom Movement people with enforced vaccinations and government intervention is the worst idea possible. Rather, refusing to serve them due to their complete scientific relativism, as this doctor has, is perhaps the only sensible response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatonekid Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Herd immunity is a scientific fact. Its time the general populace accepts it.This. I've had (polite & respectful) discussions with parents who chose not to vaccinate their children. When I asked why, quite a few of them had, in their response, a comment along the lines of "Well, it won't affect the other children and we don't have [whatever disease] in our community." But I don't think acceptance will come without education and I don't think public education is adequate at the moment. Problem is that the voices that speak out against vaccination do a good job at making themselves heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Cloak Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 The thought experiment gets even more fun: You could also make an argument for this being child abuse e.g. refusing to vaccinate children being tantamount to refusing to inject insulin into diabetic children. Also, if you refuse to get vaccinated, contract an illness, and transmit it to someone else and they die, it's homicide? PS - I'm with the pediatrician. GO GO peer pressure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hking03 Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 The thought experiment gets even more fun: You could also make an argument for this being child abuse e.g. refusing to vaccinate children being tantamount to refusing to inject insulin into diabetic children. Also, if you refuse to get vaccinated, contract an illness, and transmit it to someone else and they die, it's homicide? PS - I'm with the pediatrician. GO GO peer pressure! i like where you are going with this, but i don't think refusal to get vaccinated would lead to homicide charge. at worst it would be negligence... ultimately, you (being the person with the illness) are not purposefully contracting the illness and then purposefully transmitting it to someone else... unless of course you are... in which case you are one sick, twisted mother. i've also worked with kids who ended up in care because of issues stemming from vaccinations coupled with other events... so it could be possible to interpret the behavior as some sort of protection concern, but not child abuse. maybe child neglect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylamonkey Posted March 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 What do you mean, vaccinations coupled with other events? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hking03 Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 What do you mean, vaccinations coupled with other events? i mean that the kid wasn't vaccinated and contracted a disease which caused severe neurological damage leading to complete hearing loss (among other things). that, coupled with other child protection concerns that i can't really go into... but a general term for it would be neglect. i don't know what individual concern merited child protection involvement, as it was about 20 years ago, but the person ended up in the care of the province as a result of the investigation... hence, how i became involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubiquitine Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/rethink-flu-vaccine-policy-says-health-expert/story-e6frg6nf-1226015538824 I know, it's not directly linked to the thread subject since it's not about childrens, but what do you think about that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJack Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Homeopathy is for people with more money than sense. Aquamarine Quartz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 So are you suggesting that he enforce vaccination upon the child? Perhaps report the parents to the government and child services? If so, you're going to get a lot of pushback from health freedom movement people and libertarians, and will come off politically as patronizing and authoritarian. I agree, giving up on patients is bad, morally and practically. However, whats the next step? Can you prove that in a non-emergency situation a paediatrician has an ethical obligation to treat an unvaccinated child in regular practice? After all, there are other paediatricians who are willing to take the risk, and just calling the parents of the unvaccinated child idiots does not change their minds. Nope. Never suggested that at all, not sure where you read that either. I'm simply saying I believe it is a) wrong of the parents and wrong of the doctor. That's my opinion. I didn't offer a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking1 Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 I'm fairly certain that Dr Ron Paul does not endorse them for any stances on the science of vaccines. I suspect he supports them because of their advocacy of the application of Austrian Economics to health care distribution. Actually, Paul has a tendency to take shots at the vaccinations which target 3-4 things at the same time, i.e. MMR and DTP. Its a stand-in for him saying "THEY CAUSE AUTISM!!!! OMG!!!!", which goes over well with his constituency. Hes cool with the Polio vaccine, but not if you are forcing it on everyone, thats bad. Basically, in political situations, he does not acknowledge herd immunity. Further, he introduced the Health Freedom Protection Act in US Congress. Take a look at it and tell me what you think of its contents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking1 Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Nope. Never suggested that at all, not sure where you read that either. I'm simply saying I believe it is a) wrong of the parents and wrong of the doctor. That's my opinion. I didn't offer a solution. Oh, ok. That's....great? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blind_synergy Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Aquamarine Quartz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 i agree completely I understand the frustration and fear that the doctor has and is trying to protect his other patients, but these children need care regardless of the idiocy of their parents. Gonna refuse patients who come in with a serious infection because they waited so long, thinking it would just go away on it's own? Gonna refuse patients who traveled to a third world country and exposed themselves to thousands of other people who are unvaccinated? I think he needs to be the better man and stop quitting on these children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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