mechanics Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 I asked a doctor recently if they would let me shadow once every week, and he told me according to the Canadian college of physicians that it is illegal for any non-medical students to shadow physicians. Is this really true? If so, why? This really does put those of us who want to apply to American schools at a disadvantage, considering most American applicants will have shadowing experience under their belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerena Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 I asked a doctor recently if they would let me shadow once every week, and he told me according to the Canadian college of physicians that it is illegal for any non-medical students to shadow physicians. Is this really true? If so, why? This really does put those of us who want to apply to American schools at a disadvantage, considering most American applicants will have shadowing experience under their belt. What province are you in? My understanding is that some provinces do not allow you to shadow a physician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanics Posted March 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 What province are you in? My understanding is that some provinces do not allow you to shadow a physician. Ontario. 10Char. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renin Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Illegal? Mmm, I don't think so, but I guess it would depend on your hospital's policies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest copacetic Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 I never shadowed anybody. you dont NEED to shadow. just clinical experience of some kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glysomac Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 (in Ontario) I think it's against the rules for most hospitals because you're not covered by any insurance, so most doctors don't want to risk having you around. Medical students are covered by a hospital's insurance, so they're good to go. That said, I've definitely heard stories of, say, PhD students shadowing their research supervisor in a hospital even though they weren't covered under the hospital's insurance, so I think it's a matter of having a connection. I know in my local hospitals they flat-out refuse shadowing by hospital volunteers, but I think that would vary by size of the centre/how often they get asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest booya Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 um well I don't think it's illegal - I shadowed all sorts of people, did a co-op at the hospital and had my hands in people's abdomens and assisting in surgeries when I was 18...I think it's more about consent, trust, and professionalism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedPen Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 No offense to the above poster, but if I found out a random 18 year old kid had his hands in my abdomen after surgery, I'd cause a gigantic scene at the hospital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest booya Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 that's the point of getting consent BEFORE the surgery...and whats the difference between being 18 and being 19 or 20? it's funny hearing that from someone from quebec seeing as though you guys have some of the youngest people in medical school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedPen Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 that's the point of getting consent BEFORE the surgery...and whats the difference between being 18 and being 19 or 20? not sure if you've noticed but there are some young people in medical school Yes, but they are in medical school and thus, have had some training. And, it seems weird to me that a consent form would have a clause for a volunteer to assist in surgery... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehumanmacbook Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 that's the point of getting consent BEFORE the surgery...and whats the difference between being 18 and being 19 or 20? not sure if you've noticed but there are some young people in medical school But were you at med school at that time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest booya Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 anyways, long story short. what can be taken away from this thread is that no it is not illegal to shadow medical professionals in Ontario but some hospitals/institutes might have regulations against doing so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest booya Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Yes, but they are in medical school and thus, have had some training. And, it seems weird to me that a consent form would have a clause for a volunteer to assist in surgery... training? seeing as though students from most schools can start doing placements the first week into medical school, i don't really see the difference between their training and anyone else's training (sure they got the professionalism speach at their white coat ceremony but that's far from being "training" - I agree that insurance and policies should play a big role in students abilities to "shadow" doctors but "training" is a little far-fetched Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest booya Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Please, I understand the concern but dont' get me wrong. I agree that there is a limit to everything but the point of shadowing and assisting in something(whether it be medically relevant or not) is to learn. The patient trusts that the doctor will ensure proper procedure and the doctor trusts the nurses, assisting physicians, and students to follow their instruction. Trust me, even as a doctor you can't just walk into an opperating room and start touching things - trust takes a lot of time, preparation, training, and guidance before actually "getting your hands on" something. If the team doesn't have complete confidence in you than there is no way it's going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMaster Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Ya, its definitely not illegal in Ontario. I did an observership last summer in the ICU. I just had to get some paper work filled out by myself and the doctor I was planning on shadowing. Just depends on the hospital I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 um well I don't think it's illegal - I shadowed all sorts of people, did a co-op at the hospital and had my hands in people's abdomens and assisting in surgeries when I was 18...I think it's more about consent, trust, and professionalism Not clear what part of having untrained personnel enter the OR without any kind of insurance coverage or legal protection is "professional", but maybe I'll leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedPen Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Not clear what part of having untrained personnel enter the OR without any kind of insurance coverage or legal protection is "professional", but maybe I'll leave it at that. +1 10char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedDream Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 My family doc wouldn't let me shadow due to physician-patient confidentiality... but I think this may just be my doctor. I know several other people who have had doctors say yes no problem as long as the pt. is okay with it. And I'm in Ontario btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<abstract> Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 This may sound like a dumb question but how did you go about asking your doctor about shadowing him/her? Did you go in for a general checkup or physical and say: "Hey, by the way... " or was it something more formal like a letter or email. My doctor is not very accessible (she is always busy and doesn't take calls unless it is an emergency - which i can see as it would be really annoying to be bothered by every little thing) so I don't know how to go about talking to her about it. Any suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kawalac Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 This may sound like a dumb question but how did you go about asking your doctor about shadowing him/her? Did you go in for a general checkup or physical and say: "Hey' date=' by the way... " or was it something more formal like a letter or email. My doctor is not very accessible (she is always busy and doesn't take calls unless it is an emergency - which i can see as it would be really annoying to be bothered by every little thing) so I don't know how to go about talking to her about it. Any suggestions.[/quote'] My girlfriend works as a dental hygienist and one of the dental surgeons she worked with was also an endocrinologist, so she hooked me up. I also shadowed a radiologist. I volunteered in the diagnostic imaging centre at my hospital and after a few shifts the head technologist asked if I would like to shadow the radiologist and I jumped at the opportunity. Maybe you can go the second route if you don't have a personal connection. Volunteer at a clinic or something and try to build a good relationship. Show everyone your enthusiasm and your maturity and then ask if you can shadow. Probably have a better shot at the doc saying yes if they know you at least a little bit beforehand or if you are referred by a person close to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<abstract> Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 To the O.P., I have a relatively close relationship with my family doc (she has been my doctor since birth), however i also know a cardiac pediatrician who was my doctor for several years (but is not anymore cause over 18). Of all the doctors my cardiac pediatrician, and my family doctor know that i really want to be a doctor and that i have an interest in cardiology due to my own medical issues, should i contact the office and leave a message or would it be best to talk to my current cardiac doctor (whom I only met twice) and ask to shadow members of his team (its a private clinic with about 10 doctors; my cardiac pediatrician is amongst the group). I am just trying to set up shadowing positions for the summer and i think it would be a great opportunity for me to explore the profession. I am also trying to find a internship and a ethanol plant for chem. eng, and I am getting my research in order so i really don't have the to volunteer as much as I like. BTW, how do you get a position at a diagnostic imaging centre, don't you need previous experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 All teaching centres have a clause that learners will be allowed into the OR during surgeries under the supervision of a staff physician in the consent form, considering consent forms only have the attending names explicitedly listed, and residents and fellows frequently perform large portions of the surgery. Thus, by signing the form you've given consent for all learners to be present. Having your scrubbed hand in the body requires no skill and no training for this beyond training in proper scrub procedures. So while it is unlikely that a non-medical student would be allowed to scrub into a surgery due to insurance requirements, it might have been possible under certain conditions. Also, while I have never seen a non-medical student scrubbed into surgery I know for sure non-medical students are at least allowed to observe procedures as several undergraduate/masters/PhD students have done so for research purposes, as have equipment reps, etc. The students I know who've done this did it through either a university based co-op or research project and not as a volunteer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boa Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 I doubt theres actually a law against that...maybe you should just ask another doctor. I am shadowing a psychiatrist next month, i am surprised he actually accepted my request (patient privacy anyone?). however i am shadowing a neurospychologist this week and she was way more concerned with the privacy thing so she told me that i would have to sign a couple of papers to make sure that ''whats being said at her office stays in her office''. So yeah, i guess it just depends on the physician... ps if that makes a difference, i live in Quebec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 All teaching centres have a clause that learners will be allowed into the OR during surgeries under the supervision of a staff physician in the consent form, considering consent forms only have the attending names explicitedly listed, and residents and fellows frequently perform large portions of the surgery. Thus, by signing the form you've given consent for all learners to be present. I don't think any consent form mentions non-specific "learners", so much as others who the surgeon may "designate" to participate in the procedure. If this ever came up in a lawsuit, it is very reasonable to doubt that the presence of people who are not registered in a health professions education program and are there simply to "shadow" would not become problematic. Having your scrubbed hand in the body requires no skill and no training for this beyond training in proper scrub procedures. So while it is unlikely that a non-medical student would be allowed to scrub into a surgery due to insurance requirements, it might have been possible under certain conditions. Staff allowing something like that to happen are placing themselves at considerable legal risk, to say nothing of the risk faced by the non-medical student in question. And what goes in the official OR note/record in that case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kawalac Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 To the O.P.' date=' BTW, how do you get a position at a diagnostic imaging centre, don't you need previous experience.[/quote'] I was just a volunteer. I would show patients to the change rooms, describe the procedure to them, not anything too serious. So no, in this case you don't need previous experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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