LupeFiasco Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 Does anyone else find this a little concerning? YES 10char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspiring-curmudgeon Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 itimebomb2 and goleafsgochris, How did you guys feel about the length of the program? At the interview day, they said you get 9 weeks of the entire program, and I feel like that isn't a lot of time. How did you guys spend your time off, and did you feel like it was enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebouque Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 Anatomy/histology/embryology are the most fascinating topics to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolitaireAddikt Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 I attended the "anatomy days", but never really sat down and memorized anatomy (never had to). What are the "anatomy days"? I remember them being mentioned at the interview day but at that point I was beginning to become a bit fuzzy. I take it you have someone go through anatomical sections with a group of students? Also, I thought I heard that Mac was responsive to student feedback about their program. However, I've noticed that a common complaint has been the relative lack of anatomy compared to other schools. Any indication that Mac will reconsider their position on this in the future? Or are not enough people complaining to make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupeFiasco Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 What are the "anatomy days". I remember them being mentioned at the interview day but at that point I was beginning to become a bit fuzzy. I take it you have someone go through anatomical sections with a group of students? Also, I thought I heard that Mac was responsive to student feedback about their program. However, I've noticed that a common complaint has been the relative lack of anatomy compared to other schools. Any indication that Mac will reconsider their position on this in the future? Or are not enough people complaining to make a difference? What he/she said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkourParkour Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 What are the "anatomy days"? I remember them being mentioned at the interview day but at that point I was beginning to become a bit fuzzy. I take it you have someone go through anatomical sections with a group of students? Also, I thought I heard that Mac was responsive to student feedback about their program. However, I've noticed that a common complaint has been the relative lack of anatomy compared to other schools. Any indication that Mac will reconsider their position on this in the future? Or are not enough people complaining to make a difference? This is purely anecdotal and based on what I've heard in my four years of undergrad at McMaster, but after talking to a few professors/physicians who are preceptors in MF 1-5, their thinking is that if enough anatomy isn't learned in pre-clerkship, it can be picked up practically in clerkship and even during residency. Then again, they also fall back to the idea that the applicants selected for McMaster meds would be responsible and self-directed enough to actually take charge when there's knowledge gaps and recognize that anatomy is something they should/shouldn't focus on. Then again, I'm just a medical school applicant. I'm sure there are current mac meds that have a better idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanG8 Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 This is purely anecdotal and based on what I've heard in my four years of undergrad at McMaster, but after talking to a few professors/physicians who are preceptors in MF 1-5, their thinking is that if enough anatomy isn't learned in pre-clerkship, it can be picked up practically in clerkship and even during residency. Then again, they also fall back to the idea that the applicants selected for McMaster meds would be responsible and self-directed enough to actually take charge when there's knowledge gaps and recognize that anatomy is something they should/shouldn't focus on. Then again, I'm just a medical school applicant. I'm sure there are current mac meds that have a better idea. Anatomy days are at the beginning of each MF where we are taken through the anatomical system to be explored throughout the MF. So if it was GI, we'd be given a lecture on the abdomen, taken through anatomic specimens (normal and pathological), and shown how to look radiologically at each part of the system (even get to do our own ultrasounds on our own pancreases ). That's all we formally get to learn anatomy of the GI. However, this doesn't mean that's where your learning stops. I personally have made objectives in each tutorial with my group to learn the anatomy more in depth (i.e. what is the innervation and blood supply to the adrenals?). Also, I've gone alone and with friends to the anatomy lab to explore specimens and learn a little more. There are always anatomy staff there willing to help you out, and you can even book them for an hour or two every week to go over specimens (I know some groups have). I find the to-be surgeons are more concerned with learning anatomy (which they should be). While those who want medicine tend to let it slide (which they can... because, let's be honest, when are you going to be quizzed about the blood supply and innervation to the appendix in the CTU?). So, yes, anatomy is not as formal or heavily emphasized as other schools. The average student will be self-directed enough to find gaps in their knowledge and fill them in. That's the whole point of a preclerskhip medical education (IMO) -- teach the basics, and how to find answers when you're in clerkship. In 15 years... no medical student will remember all the innervations of the facial nerve and supply of the facial artery unless they are using that knowledge every day. Better to get the basics down while you can in perclerkship, and learn whatever else you need to later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 In 15 years... no medical student will remember all the innervations of the facial nerve and supply of the facial artery unless they are using that knowledge every day. Nice metaterms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocT7 Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 YES 10char Not that I am disagreeing, but how come exactly? (anyone who is concerned...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupeFiasco Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 Not that I am disagreeing, but how come exactly? (anyone who is concerned...) What do you mean? How do I find it concerning that some Medical Students don't learn anatomy at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocT7 Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 What do you mean? How do I find it concerning that some Medical Students don't learn anatomy at all? What are your concerns with the smaller portion of anatomy (I don't think it's no anatomy at all but...). I realize that it's a concern that some medical students may have less anatomy and it concerns me as well, but I'm just interested in hearing what peoples concerns are exactly, or... I guess the consequences that people think this may have downstream or in the grand scheme of things (ie. treating patients)... ultimately, why does this concern you? or what are your worries about? (Again, this question is for everyone not just you Lupe! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupeFiasco Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 lol. Fair enough. Granted I don't know as much about the Medical profession as a Medical student, but I keep wondering "doesn't anatomy come into play when in practice?" I realize no one will remember the origin, insertion, action, and innervation of every muscle, and I realize that having that knowledge isn't very useful in most specialties. But I feel it is important to know the names of most, if not all, muscles and bones in the body and also know where they are. Say you're an ER physician or a family physician and you have a number of patients come in who've had certain surgeries in the past. I know it's not important to know the specifics of the surgery but having a general idea would certainly be helpful in terms of coming about a diagnosis of his/her current ailment. By general idea I mean that the physician should at least know the purpose of the surgery and the surrounding muscles involved, and also have a general idea about what the innervation of that muscle group is. This "might" come into play when formulating a diagnosis. This is just one example. I'm sure you're going to say you can just look that up when the patient comes in. And you're right except having that general base of knowledge will most definitely help a LOT. Sure you can read literature to find out what's wrong, but if you don't have that base of knowledge you won't be able to understand the literature as well, if at all. Also, from a personal level, I want my physician to be very knowledgeable. For me, the trust between me and my physician stems in large part from my assessment of his/her knowledge. If their knowledge is lacking, my trust in them is lacking. I'm sure other people feel the same way as well. Another concerning thing is that sure some McMaster medical students don't know a lot of anatomy at all. I think it's irresponsible to "brag" about not knowing any anatomy whatsoever and having been matched by CaRMS. As a physician, you need to be mature enough to realize that in order to best help your patients you need to have a strong base of knowledge and a drive for life-long learning. A medical graduate blatantly saying they don't know any anatomy at all and are proud of it doesn't really reflect the values of a physician. And you can't really say it's just one person, because it's not. There were plenty of students at interview weekend who had the same attitude, even the main speaker. That's why I find this concerning. EDIT: I should add that the self-learning part of it allows those who are motivated to learn as much anatomy as other schools, if not more. This wasn't meant to be a slight on McMaster (it's my only interview and I would be privileged and beyond ecstatic if I were to be accepted). I just think that all the Med graduates should be highly knowledgeable in all aspects of medicine but I think everyone knows that the McMaster system allows some students to breeze through medical school. I think a couple of little tweaks to their system could easily fix the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goleafsgochris Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 lol. Fair enough. Granted I don't know as much about the Medical profession as a Medical student, but I keep wondering "doesn't anatomy come into play when in practice?" I realize no one will remember the origin, insertion, action, and innervation of every muscle, and I realize that having that knowledge isn't very useful in most specialties. But I feel it is important to know the names of most, if not all, muscles and bones in the body and also know where they are. Say you're an ER physician or a family physician and you have a number of patients come in who've had certain surgeries in the past. I know it's not important to know the specifics of the surgery but having a general idea would certainly be helpful in terms of coming about a diagnosis of his/her current ailment. By general idea I mean that the physician should at least know the purpose of the surgery and the surrounding muscles involved, and also have a general idea about what the innervation of that muscle group is. This "might" come into play when formulating a diagnosis. This is just one example. I'm sure you're going to say you can just look that up when the patient comes in. And you're right except having that general base of knowledge will most definitely help a LOT. Sure you can read literature to find out what's wrong, but if you don't have that base of knowledge you won't be able to understand the literature as well, if at all. Also, from a personal level, I want my physician to be very knowledgeable. For me, the trust between me and my physician stems in large part from my assessment of his/her knowledge. If their knowledge is lacking, my trust in them is lacking. I'm sure other people feel the same way as well. Another concerning thing is that sure some McMaster medical students don't know a lot of anatomy at all. I think it's irresponsible to "brag" about not knowing any anatomy whatsoever and having been matched by CaRMS. As a physician, you need to be mature enough to realize that in order to best help your patients you need to have a strong base of knowledge and a drive for life-long learning. A medical graduate blatantly saying they don't know any anatomy at all and are proud of it doesn't really reflect the values of a physician. And you can't really say it's just one person, because it's not. There were plenty of students at interview weekend who had the same attitude, even the main speaker. That's why I find this concerning. EDIT: I should add that the self-learning part of it allows those who are motivated to learn as much anatomy as other schools, if not more. This wasn't meant to be a slight on McMaster (it's my only interview and I would be privileged and beyond ecstatic if I were to be accepted). I just think that all the Med graduates should be highly knowledgeable in all aspects of medicine but I think everyone knows that the McMaster system allows some students to breeze through medical school. I think a couple of little tweaks to their system could easily fix the problem. I wasnt "bragging"--I was more trying to give an honest straight-up opinion (which to me seems to be the point of this board, although I am a new member). Do I wish I knew more anatomy? Sure! I wish I knew infinite amounts of all aspects of medicine, it would make my life a lot easier studying for the LMCC right now. Would knowing more anatomy really help me in practice? I dont want to say what I matched to, but it isnt surg or rads, so I can atleast in my experience give a pretty resounding "no". I didnt realize you werent even in med school yet. Of course premeds think like this To premeds, medicine and anatomy are pretty much the same thing. You really dont know man until you have been on the wards as a clerk. I know many U of T med students that complain that, once in clerkship, their vast knowledge of anatomy doesnt really help them. Once you start doing clinical stuff, you will very likely realize that. In fact, there is no anatomy on the LMCC--this is probably why. Also, Im not saying I know NO anatomy, I was just saying that we never really had to sit down and memorize it, so most of us didnt. Its not like a doctor tells me about the ASIS and I have to look it up lol, the stuff that is used in a practical sense I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupeFiasco Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 I wasnt "bragging"--I was more trying to give an honest straight-up opinion (which to me seems to be the point of this board, although I am a new member). Do I wish I knew more anatomy? Sure! I wish I knew infinite amounts of all aspects of medicine, it would make my life a lot easier studying for the LMCC right now. Would knowing more anatomy really help me in practice? I dont want to say what I matched to, but it isnt surg or rads, so I can atleast in my experience give a pretty resounding "no". I didnt realize you werent even in med school yet. Of course premeds think like this To premeds, medicine and anatomy are pretty much the same thing. You really dont know man until you have been on the wards as a clerk. I know many U of T med students that complain that, once in clerkship, their vast knowledge of anatomy doesnt really help them. Once you start doing clinical stuff, you will very likely realize that. In fact, there is no anatomy on the LMCC--this is probably why. Also, Im not saying I know NO anatomy, I was just saying that we never really had to sit down and memorize it, so most of us didnt. Its not like a doctor tells me about the ASIS and I have to look it up lol, the stuff that is used in a practical sense I know. That's fair. I'm 100% positive my thinking will change after Medical School has come and gone; that's why I said I don't know as much about the Medical profession as Medical students. I was just giving my opinion on the matter as someone asked and that's what I honestly think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuronix Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 lol this is hilarious. I know some very, very prominent surgeons in the GTA who went to mac. You'll need to know what you'll need to know in clerkship and residency...don't sweat it. I think the fact that Mac gives you more free time and eases the stress is actually a super positive thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__bdas51 Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 lolthis is hilarious. agreed lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igeorgex Posted April 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 so I heard from some current mac med students that due to budget cuts and increased enrollment of students in the Faculty of Health Sciences (OT, PT, Nursing, MD, PA, etc...) at McMaster, that anyone from the regional campuses will not be allowed to access the Anatomy Center or the Center for Simulation Based Learning at all. instead, they will need to use a Wiki to see specimens, and they won't get standardized patients until their 2nd year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychlops1 Posted April 10, 2011 Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 so I heard from some current mac med students that due to budget cuts and increased enrollment of students in the Faculty of Health Sciences (OT, PT, Nursing, MD, PA, etc...) at McMaster, that anyone from the regional campuses will not be allowed to access the Anatomy Center or the Center for Simulation Based Learning at all. instead, they will need to use a Wiki to see specimens, and they won't get standardized patients until their 2nd year. Can anyone confirm this? Seems like a pretty big problem, and a reallly bad sign for the future at mac. almost don't beleive it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellorie Posted April 10, 2011 Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 I can't believe that. McMaster wants to encourage people to choose the regional campuses, and this would really not do that. Unless they plan to just do it on the sly, but that would be....terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bj89 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 so I heard from some current mac med students that due to budget cuts and increased enrollment of students in the Faculty of Health Sciences (OT, PT, Nursing, MD, PA, etc...) at McMaster, that anyone from the regional campuses will not be allowed to access the Anatomy Center or the Center for Simulation Based Learning at all. instead, they will need to use a Wiki to see specimens, and they won't get standardized patients until their 2nd year. This is a very sketchy post coming from someone who only interviewed at mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igeorgex Posted April 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 This is a very sketchy post coming from someone who only interviewed at mac believe me - if I don't get into med school this year it's not the end of the world. also: I heard they didn't use CASPer at all. that's why we didn't do the computer station this year. interviews were picked randomly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HBP Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 lol... A friend of mine graded CASPer... I assure you, I would not have gotten an interview without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igeorgex Posted April 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 lol... A friend of mine graded CASPer... I assure you, I would not have gotten an interview without it. I have friends who graded it too.. just because they grade something doesn't mean they necessarily use it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatso Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 lol... A friend of mine graded CASPer... I assure you, I would not have gotten an interview without it. I also had a friend tell me this. I would not have received an interview either, unless it was truly random which I find very difficult to believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HBP Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 I have friends who graded it too.. just because they grade something doesn't mean they necessarily use it though. If they opted not to use it... do you think random selection would be the next best choice? C'mon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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