What Are My Options

[mikeb88]

Hello All,

 

Like everyone else here, my goal is to go to Medical school. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that I would get in if I applied. Here's a little background about my situation. I graduated in '09 from McMaster Biochemistry, but didn't really work/focus too hard. My first 2 years, my average was a low to mid 70%, then in 3rd and 4th year I was able to bring it up to a high 70%, low 80%. I did participate in some extracurriculars, but nothing outstanding or really relevant to medicine. I wrote the MCAT between 3rd and 4th year and scored a 31 (can't remember the exact breakdown, but if I recall correctly, everything was over a 10; may have gotten a 9 in verbal) and an O in the written sample. I didn't apply out of my undergrad because I needed some time to figure out what to do with my life. So I applied and got into graduate school, and have been in an M.Sc. program at McMaster for 1.5 years, working on potential treatments for psychiatric disorders. I've really beefed up my CV, with 2 publications (one is a 2nd author), at least one 1st author publication in the works, a provisional patent, several abstract publications and poster presentations, an award for best work by a graduate student at an annual departmental conference, and an A+ grade in each of the two graduate school courses I've taken, although I haven't been doing any extracurriculars worth putting on an application.

 

My question is: where do I go from here to get into medical school? My program allows students to transfer to the PhD program so I could get a PhD in another 2-3ish years (basically skipping my MSc), but I'm not sure that would really help my application that much and I'm not sure I want to keep doing research. I will rewrite the MCAT in the next couple years to bring my score up and really nail the written sample. I've also been contemplating doing a second undergraduate degree to bring up my grades. I know I have the potential for an outstanding GPA, and now that I've matured a bit, I'm confident I could get my average up to a 4.0 in an undergraduate science program (I'm thinking Health Sciences at Western, or a similar program). However, is this worth it? What do admissions committees think of applicants with a second Bachelor's degree?

 

What do you think I should do? Thank you for taking the time to read this! Any thoughts or advice from people who have been in a similar situation would be greatly appreciated.

[thehumanmacbook]

Med schools generally don't mind about the second degree -> see non trad forums for more information about similar situations.

 

If you got grades during your Masters, you can use that for U of T if you write the MCAT again and meet cutoff. Other schools can look your masters degree marks as well instead of your UG (don't remember them off the top of my head). I think right now U of T is a solid bet provided a good MCAT. The longer route for you would be pursue a new degree to get that GPA up, but it will take another 2-3 years and missing 3 cycles to apply with just the Masters.

 

I think maybe you should write MCAT again, finish MSc, apply. If you don't get in that cycle, start a new UG degree while continuing to apply with the MSc degree...eventually the reaction will run to completion assuming a higher rate than your first UG (which is somewhat dependent on your concentration, LOL bad chem joke) with you getting in with a semi-completed 2nd UG and a masters. This would optimize the situation, allowing you 3 or 4 cycles instead of missing opportunities to apply.

 

Hope that helps, sorry if it was confusing

[taiga gal]

what about volunteering at a homeless shelter? or with seniors? do u have any public service experience? working directing with peeps? cause that is what u will be doing as an MD...at least in the beginning.

[mikeb88]

Med schools generally don't mind about the second degree -> see non trad forums for more information about similar situations.

 

If you got grades during your Masters, you can use that for U of T if you write the MCAT again and meet cutoff. Other schools can look your masters degree marks as well instead of your UG (don't remember them off the top of my head). I think right now U of T is a solid bet provided a good MCAT. The longer route for you would be pursue a new degree to get that GPA up, but it will take another 2-3 years and missing 3 cycles to apply with just the Masters.

 

I think maybe you should write MCAT again, finish MSc, apply. If you don't get in that cycle, start a new UG degree while continuing to apply with the MSc degree...eventually the reaction will run to completion assuming a higher rate than your first UG (which is somewhat dependent on your concentration, LOL bad chem joke) with you getting in with a semi-completed 2nd UG and a masters. This would optimize the situation, allowing you 3 or 4 cycles instead of missing opportunities to apply.

 

Hope that helps, sorry if it was confusing

 

Thanks so much for your detailed response! That definitely sounds like a good plan, so I'm going to start looking into schools that take the MSc into account.

 

Since I only had to take 2 courses for my MSc, will my grades from those courses really offset my undergrad average when I apply to schools like UofT? Or will they be weighted equally with my undergrad marks?

[astrogirl]

Yeah, definitely apply to UofC. I'll write more later (on my way out the door right now), but I never thought I would get in and I did. Look at some of my old posts for details until I come back!

[mikeb88]

Yeah, definitely apply to UofC. I'll write more later (on my way out the door right now), but I never thought I would get in and I did. Look at some of my old posts for details until I come back!

 

Great!!! I'll go through your old posts for now. Looking forward to hearing your story and getting your perspective on things.

 

I went through all of Canada's med schools today and compiled a list of everything on their admissions website to go along with the info posted on these forums. I'm going to calculate my my GPA on the OMSAS scale tonight and work my way through all the schools' requirements to see where I stand. I've always wanted to study at either UofT or Western, although it looks like Western isn't much of an option unless I return for a second undergrad degree. From just a glance, though, it looks like I'll easily meet all of UofT's requirements so I'm really excited to apply there this year. I'll post my OSMAS GPA for each year when I get a chance just to get a broad perspective from everyone here about which schools I should be focused on.

 

EDIT: Just calculated my GPA for each year of my undergrad degree:

 

1st year: 2.86

2nd year: 3.16 (took 9 courses)

3rd year: 3.25 (took 11 courses)

4th year: 3.46

 

In my M.Sc., I've taken 2 courses, and received an A+ in each.

 

I wrote the MCAT in 2008, and my scores were as follows:

Verbal Reasoning: 9

Physical Sciences: 11

Biological Sciences: 11

Written Sample: O

 

So now the question is, what are my best options for applying and getting into medical school? What schools should I be looking at? How should I be improving upon my application?

[astrogirl]

Okay, so here is basically my story. Started school in 2000. I majored in physics/astronomy and ended up minoring in math. I was considering medicine when I first started, along with many other things (I wasn't one of those people who knew I wanted to be a doctor when I was 4 years old and there were a lot of different things I was interested in). My first year I ended up with a 2.1 GPA. The biggest reason for that is that I started getting sick all the time. It turned out that I had celiac disease, although I didn't find that out until 8 years later. I eventually figured out how to function and do better in school despite being sick all the time (and now that I'm not sick all the time, I'm amazed at how much easier it is to do stuff!), but I figured I could probably cross medicine, law, etc off my list of possibilities. Plus the crazy competitive pre-meds kind of freaked me out.

 

So I started to get really into astronomy research and my profs told me I should go to grad school, so I did. I didn't obsess too much about grades because people told me my grades were good enough and that I should spend my time on research. I had about a 3.0 GPA when I finished undergrad (which took 5 years, including 4 summers, and I worked 20 hours a week the entire time). There are quite a few Ds and Fs and Cs on my transcript. I did take a brief detour into double majoring in math for a while when I decided I was going to be a cryptographer and work for some top secret government agency, but after getting a C- in one especially horrible math class when I needed at least a C+ for it to count for the major ended that idea. The idea of retaking that class made me want die.

 

So I did a master's degree, which was pretty fun. Then I started my PhD at a new school, which was not so fun. Pretty bad at first, actually. I just graduated on Friday, I defended on March 31, and up until about April 21 while I was working on revisions, I was pretty sure I wasn't going to finish. Even after I passed my defense I thought the revisions would never end. It was really kind of awful, and it made me think the whole astronomy as a career idea. About 2 years ago, I started looking into alternatives like library science or teaching high school. Then one day I was talking to my mom on the phone and telling her about all of this and she was like, "Why don't you apply to med school? You used to talk about applying to med school." And I was like, "You don't know anything about med school! I can't get in! I never took organic chemistry or any of those classes, and my GPA is too low!" Thinking about it actually used to make me kind of angry, because I've taught a lot of physics labs that pre-meds take and seen some pretty lazy and awful people get in to med school (but if someone who had me as a lab instructor is reading this, I'm not talking about you! Trust me on that. If you're on here, you're one of the good ones). I used to work in a home for disabled adults doing patient care stuff, and I really loved that job which made me wish I could apply to med school, and it made me mad that people that took nothing but bird courses and cheated their way through got in when I didn't even have a chance (or so I thought).

 

So anyway, after that conversation with my mom, I decided to go online and just find out about applying to med school. Much to my surprise, I discovered that I might actually have a chance at some places, like UofC. And all of a sudden the idea just made sense. I went to lunch with some people from my department and I was like, "Hey, guess what? I'm going to apply to med school when I finish this stupid PhD!" And they had been hearing a new career plan from me every day for about a month, so they didn't think I was serious. But I was. And much to my surprise, I got in.

 

These were my stats when I applied:

-In-province for Alberta

-3.0 undergrad GPA (several failed courses)

-35N MCAT

-Master's degree (3.7 GPA)

-3/4 through a PhD (3.7 GPA)

-5 conference presentations

-2 publications (not first author)

-A bunch of work experience, some healthcare related

-A bunch of random volunteer work, some healthcare related (but no typical hospital volunteering)

-Did not get a letter of recommendation from my PhD supervisor because I felt like other people would write better ones

-Did not use my illness during undergrad as an extenuating circumstance to explain my low GPA because I felt like that would be drawing too much attention to the fact that I had a low GPA.

 

So, I'm not sure what exactly I would recommend for you. I only applied to UofC, McMaster, and NOSM (and only got an interview at UofC) because I had no pre-reqs. I was going to start a second degree and take pre-reqs to apply to more schools if I hadn't gotten in. I'm not sure if you meet the cut-offs for UofC if you're out of province, but if you do, then definitely apply there. Basically, once you come up with a plan for improving things, apply even before you've implemented it just in case you do get in. UofC said on their blog recently that they're going to be re-evaluating how they do everything, so depending on how that turns out, you may have an even better chance there. I don't know much about UofT, but you may have an okay chance there because of your grad work. Don't do a PhD unless you really like research. I thought I liked research, but I don't like it enough for it to take over my entire life.

 

One other thing you should do is make a list of all of the non-school stuff you've done to see what would be good ECs. I thought that I didn't have any ECs when I started looking into all of this because I didn't go build orphanages in Africa or volunteer in a hospital, but when I made a list I realized that I actually had a lot, some of which were pretty unique. Employment counts. Unstructured things count.

 

I think the most important thing to do is not listen to people who tell you that you don't have a chance. You already realize how competitive it is. You don't have some kind of false hope. You don't need 20 people telling you that your grades suck and you'll never get in so you shouldn't even try. The only way that you'll never get in is if you don't try.

[Addy K]

Have you thought about moving to Alberta? Once you are done your Master's, I think you should consider it. I think if you are IP there, you will have a realistic shot at UofC and possibly UofA (they drop your lowest year). My friend got in with a similar GPA as yours to both schools and he also had a Master's. That should give you some hope. UofT also favors graduate students so that could also be a realistic option.

 

So if I were you, I think I would move to Alberta and either work or start another undergraduate degree, then if you don't get in your first few times, at least you will have a new set of grades to rely on by your 3rd year. Although if you want to apply for the 2011/2012 application cycle, you will have to move by late July to be considered IP for UofC.

[mikeb88]

Thanks for all the advice, everyone! I really appreciate it. I think the best thing for me to do right now is to try to wrap up my M.Sc. this summer, before the next application cycle starts. I'll apply to every school whose cutoff I meet and see what happens. I'm also going to start looking into doing a second undergrad degree. I've already contacted a few admissions offices (Western, UofT, Queen's) to set up meetings and discuss with them how I can improve my application and become competitive. The obvious, to me, is to bring up my GPA and improve my MCAT scores. I know I can do both, but the problem would be doing it as soon as possible in a way which qualifies me for as many schools as possible. Here are the schools I'm going to seriously consider, because I think I can be competitive or at least make myself competitive:

 

-UofT

-Saskatchewan

-Ottawa

-UofC

-Western

-Queen's

 

Are there any other schools you guys think I be seriously considering, or any on my list that I should just forget about? I also forgot to mention that I'm from a SWOMEN area. From what I've read, it doesn't count for much and only some schools actually care about it, but every little bit helps!

 

For a 2nd undergrad degree, are there any programs I would be able to complete in 2 years? I majored in Biochemistry in my first degree, and stuck to mostly Health Sciences/Biochem courses.

[MarathonRunner]

For a lot of different programs you can complete a second degree in two years, depending on what transfer credits you receive from which universities. If you have all of the standard science prereqs (first year chem, bio, physics, math), then it is generally fairly easy to complete a second degree in a science-related field in two years, but it really depends on the university.

 

Some schools require that there be no more than 25% overlap between the first and second degree. Other schools won't allow you to do a second B.Sc. if you already have one. Some schools just require that you declare a different major, and that it can't be in a subject that you previously minored in, so it really is best to check with the universities you plan to attend.

 

Some second degrees that people have taken to prep for med include kinesiology/human kinetics, nutrition/dietetics/food science, health science/human health/biomed. But it doesn't have to be something related to human health - basically choose a subject that you are passionate about and feel you can do well in, to get your GPA in the range you want.

 

Some people are also strategic and choose a degree that will give them the opportunity to pursue a different career, should they not make it into medicine. Hence kinesiology (can become a kinesiologist, or apply to PT or OT), dietetics (can become a registered dietitian after completing an internship) or even nursing (although I'm told it is rather hard to get top grades in nursing due to the clinical courses and a lot of pass/fail courses).

 

Good luck!

 

For a 2nd undergrad degree, are there any programs I would be able to complete in 2 years? I majored in Biochemistry in my first degree, and stuck to mostly Health Sciences/Biochem courses.

[sunshinesky101]

Thanks for all the advice, everyone! I really appreciate it. I think the best thing for me to do right now is to try to wrap up my M.Sc. this summer, before the next application cycle starts. I'll apply to every school whose cutoff I meet and see what happens. I'm also going to start looking into doing a second undergrad degree. I've already contacted a few admissions offices (Western, UofT, Queen's) to set up meetings and discuss with them how I can improve my application and become competitive. The obvious, to me, is to bring up my GPA and improve my MCAT scores. I know I can do both, but the problem would be doing it as soon as possible in a way which qualifies me for as many schools as possible. Here are the schools I'm going to seriously consider, because I think I can be competitive or at least make myself competitive:

 

-UofT

-Saskatchewan

-Ottawa

-UofC

-Western

-Queen's

 

Are there any other schools you guys think I be seriously considering, or any on my list that I should just forget about? I also forgot to mention that I'm from a SWOMEN area. From what I've read, it doesn't count for much and only some schools actually care about it, but every little bit helps!

 

For a 2nd undergrad degree, are there any programs I would be able to complete in 2 years? I majored in Biochemistry in my first degree, and stuck to mostly Health Sciences/Biochem courses.

 

From the GPA breakdown you posted, you don't meet the cutoffs for Ottawa, Sask and Western. You may also want to add Mac to the list since having a Masters will help you there a lot also depends on the Casper.

[mikeb88]

From the GPA breakdown you posted, you don't meet the cutoffs for Ottawa, Sask and Western. You may also want to add Mac to the list since having a Masters will help you there a lot also depends on the Casper.

 

Yup, my GPA isn't up to par at those schools, which is why I'm planning on doing a second degree. Mac would only give me an additional 1% on my application score, and I've already done 2 degrees at Mac, so I'd like to look at other schools. Thanks for the advice, though!

[mikeb88]

OK, so I'm pretty set on starting my 2nd undergrad degree in September. I'm confident that this time around, I'll be able to maintain a competitive average and make myself eligible for schools that look at your best/most recent years, as well as some other schools that take graduate work into account. However, I'm not entirely sure what undergraduate programs to apply to and would really appreciate some input. I plan to apply to 3 programs.

 

I'm looking for a challenging program that will still allow me to work towards a high GPA. I would like to finish in 2 years, and since I did my first degree in Biochem, that narrows it down to a science degree. My M.Sc. has focused on mental disorders, such as schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and I find Psychology in general very interesting. I'm also very into food and nutrition, and have a pretty solid foundation in metabolism from my Biochem degree. The programs I've looked at the most are:

 

Nutritional and Neutraceutical Sciences at University of Guelph

Psychology (Science stream) at University of Western Ontario

Nutritional Sciences at University of Toronto

 

Are there any other programs that you would recommend? Would any of the three programs I've listed be difficult to maintain a high GPA? Did anyone study these three or similar programs at different universities?

 

Thanks for all your help so far, and for taking the time to read this post. I really appreciate everyone's input!

[MarathonRunner]

Hi Mike,

 

I have a couple of friends who went to Guelph who totally loved it there. Both of them went on to study at OVC (one did animal science as her undergrad, the other did human kinetics). I visited them once during reading week and both the campus and the city seemed terrific. If I had to do it over again, I would probably choose to go to Guelph myself - my friends were just so happy there, compared to those of us who went to other Ontario universities.

 

I did, myself, take several courses through "Open Guelph" - their distance education offerings, and I really enjoyed the courses. The course packs were well-prepared, the professors were excellent, and I feel I truly received appropriate marks for those courses, based upon the amount of effort I put into them (ie. no bell-curving down like at some universities). The courses I took, FWIW, were NUTR 1010, NUTR 2050, PSYC 1010, and FRHD 1010.

 

From what my friends who went to Guelph said, that's pretty typical - they always knew going into a final exam where they stood in the class, and didn't have to be worried about being bell-curved down. I'm not sure if that just applied to their programs, but as I attended a university that does bell-curve down, the whole concept of not having that happen seemed wonderful to me!

 

Western is another great school, from what I'm told. I would avoid U of T, personally, due to their bell-curving. Sure, it is possible to get good grades at U of T, but I've heard plenty of horror stories about the grading there. But it is certainly possible to succeed there. And some people like the "big city" feel of Toronto, along with the various opportunities for networking and research. I'm not fond of big cities myself, so I've always avoided Toronto. Cities like Kingston, London, or Guelph are much more my style, but if you like big city life, Toronto might be better for you.

 

Good luck!

[Slashsev01]

ur phd will never be done in 2-3 years...

 

ur prof is bs!

 

so many in ur shoes get stuck...ur lookin at a solid +4 years

 

 

ps 4 years out of school is alote!! i dont know if u havent noticed..by studying seems different after stopping school

[mikeb88]

ur phd will never be done in 2-3 years...

 

ur prof is bs!

 

It's not my prof who said my PhD would be done in that time, it's my program. My program allows you to transfer after about 1.5 years from an MSc to a PhD, and contribute your first 1.5 years to your PhD requirements. Either way, I don't think it's worth it to transfer and complete a PhD when it's my GPA that's holding me back.

 

I've decided to apply to a few programs at Guelph:

 

-Nutritional Sciences

-Human Kinetics

-Biomedical Sciences

 

If anyone has any experience with these programs, I'd really appreciate your insight. Thanks so much for your help with everyone so far!!!

[MarathonRunner]

It's not my prof who said my PhD would be done in that time, it's my program. My program allows you to transfer after about 1.5 years from an MSc to a PhD, and contribute your first 1.5 years to your PhD requirements. Either way, I don't think it's worth it to transfer and complete a PhD when it's my GPA that's holding me back.

 

I've decided to apply to a few programs at Guelph:

 

-Nutritional Sciences

-Human Kinetics

-Biomedical Scienceshttp://www.premed101.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=591134

 

If anyone has any experience with these programs, I'd really appreciate your insight. Thanks so much for your help with everyone so far!!!

 

If you like anatomy and dissection, go for human kinetics or biomedical sciences. I believe that Guelph's human kinetics and biomed programs are the only undergrad programs in Canada that have an actual dissection course as part of the undergraduate program. My friend who studied HK at Guelph really, really enjoyed her dissection courses. If that's your thing, then go for it.

 

If you enjoy learning about nutrition and how the body uses various nutrients, pick the nutritional sciences program. If you enjoy biomechanics and the study of human movement, go for HK. If you want a mix of stuff, go for Biomed.

[EoE]

Just to chime in with my experience in terms of length of grad school... I did an MSc (1 year course-based). Then I started a PhD which was completely separate. I started in Sept of 2008 and will be defending this June. That is just shy of 3 years. It was busy, but not unbelievable. It definitely depends on how the cookie crumbles in terms of your lab, experiments, publications, courses, etc. Totally possible.

[jordan19]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXO3gKfOUN8

[mikeb88]

So it turns out that Guelph won't let me do a second B.Sc. since I already hold a B.Sc. They decided to tell me this via email after I had already filled in and submitted my OUAC application and payment. So I called a few other schools I'm interested in, and Western will take me on as a B.Sc. student, although I'm not sure I can be finished within two years. Nonetheless, I've applied to the following Honours programs:

 

Health Sciences

Psychology

Nutrition (Brescia)

 

Anybody have experience in either of these three programs?

 

P.S. Thanks for the inspiration Jordan...

[MarathonRunner]

That's too bad about Guelph. Sorry I don't have any experience with Western's programs. When I looked at going there, their whole "module" system was very different from any other school I looked at. Hopefully someone who went to Western will see this and can help you out.

 

And yes, nutrition is at Brescia (it was one of the programs at Western I was looking at) and it is an honours degree.

[mikeb88]

That's too bad about Guelph. Sorry I don't have any experience with Western's programs. When I looked at going there, their whole "module" system was very different from any other school I looked at. Hopefully someone who went to Western will see this and can help you out.

 

And yes, nutrition is at Brescia (it was one of the programs at Western I was looking at) and it is an honours degree.

 

I just read that Brescia is a female-only campus. Is this true? If so, then I'm planning on applying to do a BMSc at Western.

[MarathonRunner]

I just read that Brescia is a female-only campus. Is this true? If so, then I'm planning on applying to do a BMSc at Western.

 

The Brescia college is female-only, but, if I remember correctly, the programs offered by Brescia are open to both males and females. That should be easy enough to check with a search through the Brescia site, or a quick call or email.

[jordan19]

I just read that Brescia is a female-only campus. Is this true? If so, then I'm planning on applying to do a BMSc at Western.

 

Mike,

 

I heard the first two years at BMSc and Health Science at Western are really easy to do well in.

On a related note, my baby bro is going there too.

 

Cheers.

[mikeb88]

Well if Brescia is open to males and females, then I'll stick with that choice. I'm still debating between the BHSc and BMSc at Western though. From what I've heard, HSc focuses more on the health care system, while MSc focuses more on human health and disease (which I'm more interested in). Any thoughts on this?

 

Thanks for the input Jordan! Are you back in the lab soon?