Canada Post strike

[apache]

very true, who's more valuable to society, economically speaking? a biology grad with a 2.7 gpa who probably got lucky and got a job at canada post, or a self taught baker who runs his own million dollar business and employs 15 people?

 

my dad had a grade 4 education and through 20 years of hard work became the provincial distribution manager of a newspaper in the 80's before the recession... they seemed to think he was pretty valuable? weird eh? especially without the education... thats simply incredible!

 

If he had of said un skilled then i wouldnt have had a problem with that but he said uneducated.

 

Not having an education doesn't make you any less valuable to society. What one does with their life is what makes them of value.

 

Want to know how many uneducated people i know who own and run successful businesses, volunteer their time and contribute back to their communities? Lots.

 

No one is deserving of anything - educated or otherwise. If you want something in life go get it. I have an issue when people think those who went to school are somehow deserving of better simply because they chose to go to school.

[apache]

they'll just cut costs by proxy by not hiring new workers to replace the ones retiring over the next few years. although i think the pay is fair for the work, it's simply not tenable to keep the staff they have AND pay them the same wage when economic conditions for the industry are so poor.

 

when you look at the airline industry i believe pilots should get paid more than they do, but in the economic climate we have it's simply not possible to pay pilots 250 k without going bankrupt. if it weren't for the unions in the states realizing they needed to work with management as a team because of the dire economic situation many airline workers would have lost their jobs and/or the businesses would have gone under.

 

sometimes unions protect you, and sometimes they make your life disproportionately good compared to what you contribute. however, even though it seems unfair, sometimes unions have to be prudent and realize that the industry simply cannot support 23 dollars an hour anymore, even if they're deserving of it. in this economic climate, jobs are scarce and there would be lots of people working at burger king willing to take their place for 19 an hour... but that's the unions choice to make.

 

What they should do is reduce total staff by 17% OR come up with alternative cost cutting plams to ensure all employees can still keep their jobs.

 

The problem with the latter approach is everyone is a greedy **** and only in it for themselves. If more people and business adopted a game theory approach we'd all win but few would consider taking less money to help save their co-workers from being canned.

[kkentm]

If he had of said un skilled then i wouldnt have had a problem with that but he said uneducated.

 

Not having an education doesn't make you any less valuable to society. What one does with their life is what makes them of value.

 

Want to know how many uneducated people i know who own and run successful businesses, volunteer their time and contribute back to their communities? Lots.

 

No one is deserving of anything - educated or otherwise. If you want something in life go get it. I have an issue when people think those who went to school are somehow deserving of better simply because they chose to go to school.

 

uneducated = unskilled for the vast majority of the population (excluding those born with an incredible natural talent in something which cannot be improved through education, eg. pro athlete)

 

and since i started this thread to talk about workers for the canada post i feel the word uneducated fit the context of my post

[aaronjw]

uneducated = unskilled for the vast majority of the population (excluding those born with an incredible natural talent in something which cannot be improved through education, eg. pro athlete)

 

and since i started this thread to talk about workers for the canada post i feel the word uneducated fit the context of my post

 

Plumbers by and large would be considered uneducated yet are definitely not unskilled.

 

Welders would be considered uneducated but not unskilled.

 

Tool and die makers would be considered uneducated yet not unskilled

 

Drillers are considered uneducated yet not unskilled.

 

 

I know more unskilled educated people than i do skilled uneducated people.

[phosgenic]

I'm glad you still have a few years if undergrad to mature prior to applying to med or dental school. That kind of behaviour demonstrates a complete lack of discipline, respect and judgement.

 

Yea I know..... . It was funny to see their reactions though... and tbh though my behavior was outrageous I notice you didn't comment on theirs... the act of striking demands a certain etiquette that was completely lost on these hooligans.... yes the pot can call the kettle black... lol.

[apache]

my uncle came from a foreign country with slightly more education that my dad (grade 6 to grade 4) and built a restaurant up from scratch that earned him an internists salary... more successful than my dad's peak as provincial distribution manager for a newspaper... so you're right, education obviously does matter, ROFLMAO... shut up before you look like an even bigger idiot... your health sciences degree won't worth jack **** in the real world... you better get into med otherwise you'll be just another over-educated starbucks barista or lab assistant. at least people with ba's can get jobs with government and private industry in human services etc.

 

p.s. i met a bus driver once when i was in first year university who i assumed had no education, and when he told me he was thinking of going back for his phd in history i started laughing and he got really offended and told me he had a masters degree, i also worked with a woman who worked as a clerk in the hospital on the side for 25 an hour despite the fact that she had two degrees, the other clerk also has a degree... the third clerk had high school in the Philippines.

 

uneducated = unskilled for the vast majority of the population (excluding those born with an incredible natural talent in something which cannot be improved through education, eg. pro athlete)

 

and since i started this thread to talk about workers for the canada post i feel the word uneducated fit the context of my post

[phosgenic]

uneducated = unskilled for the vast majority of the population (excluding those born with an incredible natural talent in something which cannot be improved through education, eg. pro athlete)

 

and since i started this thread to talk about workers for the canada post i feel the word uneducated fit the context of my post

 

as others have said this statement is nonsensical... my dad owns a metal-working company and some of his most valuable spinners/welders/machine ops didn't even graduate from high school... oh yea these guys are making in excess of 100k per year... they're incredibly skilled at their craft and having a formal education wouldn't have done squat for them... they acquired their skill through real-world, practical experience... so maybe you want to revise your stance.

[drkwhy]

... your health sciences degree won't worth jack **** in the real world... you better get into med otherwise you'll be just another over-educated starbucks barista or lab assistant.

 

Ahh the torture. I regret so much doing a BSc! BEng, BBA, BEd...all worthwhile degrees.

 

A bachelors of science USED to be valuable. Now it's worth next to nothing.

[donnadee]

Ahh the torture. I regret so much doing a BSc! BEng, BBA, BEd...all worthwhile degrees.

 

A bachelors of science USED to be valuable. Now it's worth next to nothing.

 

lol dont worry..its not the end of the world...experience trumps every degree...be it a bsc in psych, bio, zoology...if u gain experience outside the realm of academics while pursuing a bsc, it can go a long way

[kkentm]

as others have said this statement is nonsensical... my dad owns a metal-working company and some of his most valuable spinners/welders/machine ops didn't even graduate from high school... oh yea these guys are making in excess of 100k per year... they're incredibly skilled at their craft and having a formal education wouldn't have done squat for them... they acquired their skill through real-world, practical experience... so maybe you want to revise your stance.

 

educated does not mean having a university degree. from my limited understanding of the trades, i believe most successful tradesmen undergo some sort of apprenticeship or college program which is still an "education." mailmen, on the other hand, do not.

[kkentm]

my uncle came from a foreign country with slightly more education that my dad (grade 6 to grade 4) and built a restaurant up from scratch that earned him an internists salary... more successful than my dad's peak as provincial distribution manager for a newspaper... so you're right, education obviously does matter, ROFLMAO... shut up before you look like an even bigger idiot... your health sciences degree won't worth jack **** in the real world... you better get into med otherwise you'll be just another over-educated starbucks barista or lab assistant. at least people with ba's can get jobs with government and private industry in human services etc.

 

p.s. i met a bus driver once when i was in first year university who i assumed had no education, and when he told me he was thinking of going back for his phd in history i started laughing and he got really offended and told me he had a masters degree, i also worked with a woman who worked as a clerk in the hospital on the side for 25 an hour despite the fact that she had two degrees, the other clerk also has a degree... the third clerk had high school in the Philippines.

 

the perceived success of ur uncle and father still doesnt invalidate my point that uneducated=unskilled.

[aaronjw]

the perceived success of ur uncle and father still doesnt invalidate my point that uneducated=unskilled.

 

The ignorance of your position does validate you as obtuse

[mdDave]

I think kkentm may be defining education differently than some.

My dad owned a construction business once, went from very small and unsuccessful to pretty damn good. He didn't have a formal education (or at least not in that field) but with time his experience educated him how to run the business. He knew what he was doing.

If education means knowing a lot about something and being good at it than uneducated may equal unskilled I think...

[kkentm]

The ignorance of your position does validate you as obtuse

 

why has their been such a drastic increase in the amount of students enrolled in university and college over the past few decades? because people believe exactly what i have stated, uneducated = unskilled. high school grads have been flocking to universities to obtain a degree that will make them more skilled and thus better their chances of obtaining a "good" job. previously high paying jobs that required little to no education have been outsourced to third world countries (eg. car factories). outsourcing will continue to occur to even larger degrees in the near future

[phosgenic]

The example I gave was one where the men in question were completely uneducated (no college or apprenticeship or anything else you could call formal education), they picked it up on the fly yet they are very skilled at what they do..... therefore destroying the validity of your declaration that those uneducated are unskilled. Muse provided a number of other examples, for instance his uncle having an elementary school education and still opening up a restaurant from scratch. There are countless other examples of successful individuals having no formal education who are extremely skilled at their craft (which is not by any means one that you would consider to be unskilled)

 

educated does not mean having a university degree. from my limited understanding of the trades, i believe most successful tradesmen undergo some sort of apprenticeship or college program which is still an "education." mailmen, on the other hand, do not.

 

 

 

The ignorance of your position does validate you as obtuse

 

lol, clever

[kkentm]

The example I gave was one where the men in question were completely uneducated (no college or apprenticeship or anything else you could call formal education), they picked it up on the fly yet they are very skilled at what they do..... therefore destroying the validity of your declaration that those uneducated are unskilled. Muse provided a number of other examples, for instance his uncle having an elementary school education and still opening up a restaurant from scratch. There are countless other examples of successful individuals having no formal education who are extremely skilled at their craft (which is not by any means one that you would consider to be unskilled)

 

ur example is probably the weakest of them all since outsourcing will obliterate businesses similar to ur dad's in the near future. there is a large generation gap between ur father's generation and ours now. sure, 20 or 30 years ago it would normal to drop out of high school and go into the trades and as u stated, many of these high school drop outs ended up holding steady, well paying jobs. however, these opportunities are not available anymore (at least their available to a much lesser degree)

[kkentm]

another good example, 20-30 years ago u didnt have to go to college to become a firefighter or police officer (im assuming). now u do.

[aaronjw]

why has their been such a drastic increase in the amount of students enrolled in university and college over the past few decades? because people believe exactly what i have stated, uneducated = unskilled. high school grads have been flocking to universities to obtain a degree that will make them more skilled and thus better their chances of obtaining a "good" job. previously high paying jobs that required little to no education have been outsourced to third world countries (eg. car factories). outsourcing will continue to occur to even larger degrees in the near future

 

Engineering, computer programming, drafting, architecture, design, accounting, are just some of the professions which require education that are being outsourced in increasing numbers.

 

People go to school because they're lazy and think the only way to a good paying, stable job (no such thing btw) is through an education. Skilled trades will become the biggest boom in the next 5-10 years as senior tradesmen retire out and there are few of them entering the workplace to take their position.

[A-Stark]

All public sector unions fight for the same principle: minimize work/duties and maximize wages/benefits. Whether it's the TTC union or the teachers union, it's always the same. Regardless of whether there is a recession and the average Joe on the street is barely making ends meat.

 

Perhaps average Joe and his co-workers should form a union and work to alter the terms of their employment to favour employees to a greater degree.

 

Not sure what the macroeconomic picture has to do with collective bargaining per se. In any case, I suppose you think that provincial medical associations should happily accept reduced fee schedules or accept whatever arbitrary measures are taken by respective ministries of health. Or maybe residency associations should stop negotiating for improved call stipends or post-call day guarantees. I mean, why would anyone want better hours and money? Why, indeed, when one can point some rhetorical lowest common denominator "average Joe"?

 

I despise the NDP very much. Their moronic antics with delaying the back-to-work legislature just infuriates me. They surely lost the confidence of most people that voted for them last month. This is the same party that two months ago during the election campaign insisted that we fix healthcare issues by pumping more money and hiring more doctors (particularly, hire more doctors trained outside of Canada). This just seemed so illogical to me given the huge inefficiencies and money wastage that happens within our healthcare system. The answer isn't to pump more money into it, but become more efficient - a concept that's clearly foreign to the NDP.

 

Right. Obviously we're wasting large amounts of money by overstaffing all those acute-care floors and leaving so many beds unfilled. Health care is clearly full of excess resources diverted to waste (no doubt to "administration", right?).

 

Although I don't know that porter services is exactly a model of efficiency...

[kkentm]

Engineering, computer programming, drafting, architecture, design, accounting, are just some of the professions which require education that are being outsourced in increasing numbers.

 

People go to school because they're lazy and think the only way to a good paying, stable job (no such thing btw) is through an education. Skilled trades will become the biggest boom in the next 5-10 years as senior tradesmen retire out and there are few of them entering the workplace to take their position.

 

even if this happened, they wont be hiring high school drop outs. they'll be hiring recent grads of college and apprenticeship programs. thats called an education

[aaronjw]

So that's why I went to school. Thanks for the info. Can someone tell me why I do sports?

 

Sorry, I should of said compartively from trades. If you don't think the younger generation of people are lazier and expect everything to be handed to them compared to previous generations then you need to talk to people in management positions at various businesses. Few want to work hard for what they get and lets face it, skilled trades is a manual labour job and IS always going to be hard work.

 

I can speak from experience with the number of people who I have hired and reported to me over the years. Their "I went to school" mentality some how makes them believe they're entitled to something before they've earned it.

[aaronjw]

Yeah it's true for some people, obviously more than the older generation. Or maybe, the older generation really wasn't able to judge itself correctly when it was the young generation, like many of the young generation of today. Or, they had other things their own older generation criticized them for, like the 1000s of young generations before them. It's also kind of funny hearing the complaints of the older generation, considering they're the parents teaching these kids, no? I like to think I went to school because I like learning, that's what I'm skilled at and the programs I chose are what interest me. I like to think that because that's precisely why I went to school.

 

Im the same. I was good at a multiple of manual type skills when i was growing up and trying to figure out what i wanted to do and in the end i figured out i enjoyed using my brain more than i did my hands.

 

As for the dig on parents. I'd say its a multitude of things including parents. The fact you cant fail kids, that you cant spank them or the "lets just all have fun and not worry about the score" type brainwashing translates into the real world and that's evident by the crop of kids in high school and coming out of university. Yes this is a generalization but one i've seen over and over again. The idea of "paying your dues" is a foreign concept

[drkwhy]

aaronjw makes a lot of great points. I just want to point out(if it hasn't been already) that educated doesn't mean skilled. And uneducated doesn't mean unskilled. It may imply that to some people but the literal meaning of those two words are not equivalent.

 

And I just want to point out that the education system is very screwed up nowadays. Ken Robinson illustrates these ideas well and I wouldn't want to butcher them by saying it in layman terms. Education was initially intended for industrial use. To train students that would do certain tasks for the employer. It doesn't take much to do what you're told and study what you're told to study and do the tests that just examine your ability to essentially follow instructions. This may say a lot to you about the medical profession.

 

A lot of jobs ARE going to be outsourced and that's why the "right brain jobs"(called by Danial Pink) are the ones that will flourish in the coming years.

 

This is a little far out there but how hard is it to go to a computer, programmed in it an algorithm that most doctors use to assess patients. Take blood from you, assess sputum cultures and assess to an extent what your illness is and tell you whether you have a cold or whatever. This a very raw and seems like a ridiculous idea but then again, if you told people back in the 18th century that there would be cell phones and TV's and things such as facebook and such and such video games that we would be spending our precious time engaged in, they would stare at you in awe.

[apache]

silly boy, you need grade 12 and the ability to pass a fitness exam to be an officer or fire fighter in north america. it's also often policy to exclude people with high iq's (over 125, generally) from the police service:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-connecticut-judge-rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores.html

 

it's common practice to exclude intelligent (not educated, a lot of educated people i know are ridiculously stupid and make perfect hard-working peons for professional programs) people from the police force, this is a pretty common topic in criminology.

 

another good example, 20-30 years ago u didnt have to go to college to become a firefighter or police officer (im assuming). now u do.

[aaronjw]

It's not a dig on parents. I'm not a fan of focusing responsibility on a single element when it doesn't apply. I was simply bringing a different point of view. If you read this thread from the first post to the end, you'll see polarizing opinions and very little substance.

 

Page two, first and second posts. I've read it from the beginning.