apache Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 ever wonder why they wont let you file for bankruptcy on government student loans ... university is nothing but a business, with a marketing department like any other. their job is to give you a piece of useless paper in exchange for money to fund their phd's to do research and get more grant money. the only really valuable degrees are the ones that train you do a specific function in society, and for some of these, you better thank the invention of the profession and self-regulation, otherwise professionals would be subject to the same free market pressures as other grads and people would be free to go to the most skilled practitioner, not inherently the most educated (i.e. you can become a pretty damn good psychologist without ever having formally studied psychology) it's the person that makes themselves worth something, not the degree... you don't need a degree to go to the library and educate yourself, go to toastmasters to practice your public speaking skills and volunteer to gain management experience. if education just means having skills why do you use two terms, you should just say skilled workers, when you mention education you imply that these skills had to be garnered at an educational institution of some sort. maybe the simplest example is virtuoso musicians who never received any formal musical education but just played guitar for 8 hours a day and taught themselves musical theory. why has their been such a drastic increase in the amount of students enrolled in university and college over the past few decades?because people believe exactly what i have stated, uneducated = unskilled. high school grads have been flocking to universities to obtain a degree that will make them more skilled and thus better their chances of obtaining a "good" job. previously high paying jobs that required little to no education have been outsourced to third world countries (eg. car factories). outsourcing will continue to occur to even larger degrees in the near future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 silly boy, you need grade 12 and the ability to pass a fitness exam to be an officer or fire fighter in north america. it's also often policy to exclude people with high iq's (over 125, generally) from the police service: I considered joining the police force here in Alberta for a while, and they encourage post-secondary education in their recruits. Also, you do have to go through a year of training after you're recruited, which in my mind, counts as "education." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 I have to say, it's amazing how little this strike affected me....I never realized that mail was so unimportant for me. I don't subscribe to any magazines anymore, because when I did, I got frustrated with lost issues or receiving my issues 2 weeks after they hit the newsstands. I get most of my bills online. I never send cards or letters to anyone. The only time I use Canada Post is for student loan purposes (I have yet to receive my summer loans, although the tuition deadline was May 15) and Ebaying. With student loans, there are reps on campus during peak times, so CP is not a necessary service, although it does make things more convenient. As far as Ebaying, I recently bought and sold a few things on Ebay, but neither my customers nor I are in dire need of receiving the items ASAP, so as long as CP goes back to work at SOME point, I am not too bothered by it. Regarding how tough their work is....lots of jobs are tough. Dealing with annoying customers as a Walmart cashier or making burgers at McD's is no easier than carrying around mail. Why should the mail carrier be paid 2-3x what people in other unskilled jobs get paid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 I considered joining the police force here in Alberta for a while, and they encourage post-secondary education in their recruits. Also, you do have to go through a year of training after you're recruited, which in my mind, counts as "education." So is an apprenticeship but many wouldnt consider that to be educated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phosgenic Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 ur example is probably the weakest of them all since outsourcing will obliterate businesses similar to ur dad's in the near future. there is a large generation gap between ur father's generation and ours now. sure, 20 or 30 years ago it would normal to drop out of high school and go into the trades and as u stated, many of these high school drop outs ended up holding steady, well paying jobs. however, these opportunities are not available anymore (at least their available to a much lesser degree) You are deviating from the topic of focus.... that uneducated=unskilled. Please do not dilute the argument by polluting it with concepts that have some sort of loose connection. If the debate was answering the question 'are carrots orange', all points brought to the table should be, by whatever angle, addressing this question. Don't tell me that in 10 years scientists are planning to genetically modify carrots and make them purple because there will be reduced sun spoilage (a ridiculous example, but it illustrates my point). So I will reiterate... I can mail you a thick stack of documents detailing a number of people, living or deceased, that delineate formally uneducated individuals performing tasks that, in normal circumstances, require an undue amount of skill (skill here holding the definition of requiring special abilities or training) and being immensely successful at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharmingHedgehog Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 I have to say, it's amazing how little this strike affected me....I never realized that mail was so unimportant for me. I don't subscribe to any magazines anymore, because when I did, I got frustrated with lost issues or receiving my issues 2 weeks after they hit the newsstands. I get most of my bills online. I never send cards or letters to anyone. The only time I use Canada Post is for student loan purposes (I have yet to receive my summer loans, although the tuition deadline was May 15) and Ebaying. With student loans, there are reps on campus during peak times, so CP is not a necessary service, although it does make things more convenient. As far as Ebaying, I recently bought and sold a few things on Ebay, but neither my customers nor I are in dire need of receiving the items ASAP, so as long as CP goes back to work at SOME point, I am not too bothered by it. Regarding how tough their work is....lots of jobs are tough. Dealing with annoying customers as a Walmart cashier or making burgers at McD's is no easier than carrying around mail. Why should the mail carrier be paid 2-3x what people in other unskilled jobs get paid? Agreed. When I renewed my passport, I got it via purolator. Many vendors are also migrating to UPS or purolator for deliveries. Canada post is forcing everyone to find alternatives to them. A friend just spoke to me today about how her parents are forced to use online bill payments because Post is not working, and will probably stick with online now. In a time when so many people lost their jobs, Canada Post decides to bargain about their pretty awesome pay and benefit. Currently they pay newbies 22/hr, retire with full pension at 55; they want to change it so new hires get 19/hr, and retire with full pension at 60. I've worked at staples as customer service agent, at a call center doing market research, and got paid minimum wage (~ $9); When I was a pharmacy student, I was paid 12/hr. Now I'm working as a pharmacy intern, and getting paid $17. I'm not saying that Canada Post workers are less smart people or whatever, but I thought the amount of pay was based some what on skill and how hard it is to find someone to do your job. When I was 13, I delivered pennysaver on weekends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolitaireAddikt Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 I have to say, it's amazing how little this strike affected me....I never realized that mail was so unimportant for me. I don't subscribe to any magazines anymore, because when I did, I got frustrated with lost issues or receiving my issues 2 weeks after they hit the newsstands. I get most of my bills online. I never send cards or letters to anyone. The only time I use Canada Post is for student loan purposes (I have yet to receive my summer loans, although the tuition deadline was May 15) and Ebaying. With student loans, there are reps on campus during peak times, so CP is not a necessary service, although it does make things more convenient. As far as Ebaying, I recently bought and sold a few things on Ebay, but neither my customers nor I are in dire need of receiving the items ASAP, so as long as CP goes back to work at SOME point, I am not too bothered by it. Regarding how tough their work is....lots of jobs are tough. Dealing with annoying customers as a Walmart cashier or making burgers at McD's is no easier than carrying around mail. Why should the mail carrier be paid 2-3x what people in other unskilled jobs get paid? What's funny is that this strike could have occured at any other time of the year, and not affected me much. However the strike/lockout ended up occuring at a very inconvenient time for me- I need to send registration forms to my school, I'm still waiting for my police check (which should have arrived last week), I need to send some forms to OSAP, and I am waiting for line-of-credit debit card/documents to arrive. So basically, this lockout has resulted in me becoming very broke, and I may have to send some documents by courier to get them in before the deadline. That said, I'm not mad at Canada Post. Yes, the nature of mail service is changing and they need to make changes to reflect that; however, I can't say that I'm upset that they earn $23/hour. I just want my friggin mail.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkentm Posted June 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 silly boy, you need grade 12 and the ability to pass a fitness exam to be an officer or fire fighter in north america. it's also often policy to exclude people with high iq's (over 125, generally) from the police service: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-connecticut-judge-rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores.html it's common practice to exclude intelligent (not educated, a lot of educated people i know are ridiculously stupid and make perfect hard-working peons for professional programs) people from the police force, this is a pretty common topic in criminology. ur the silly one here. i have friends who are studying to be police officers and firefighters in college. they need the college degree to be COMPETITIVE applicants to police/firefighting academies. its not the 1970s anymore, u need a college or university degree for pretty much any job now as sad as that may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Regarding how tough their work is....lots of jobs are tough. Dealing with annoying customers as a Walmart cashier or making burgers at McD's is no easier than carrying around mail. Why should the mail carrier be paid 2-3x what people in other unskilled jobs get paid? Why should radiologists get paid 2-3x what most family docs get paid? I think arguments about what people "should" are pretty pointless in this respect - and what those Walmart employees need is a union, something said company has been fighting tooth and nail against for years, to the point of closing a store outright which had certified a union and claiming that said unionization had nothing to do with the closure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dentopia11 Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 i think we all need a premed101 union to represent disgruntled premed101 members...we will fight for moderator voting rights, increase in post count, and promotion to senior members for all current junior members...otherwise we'll go on a rotating strike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phosgenic Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 I just want to point out(if it hasn't been already) that educated doesn't mean skilled. And uneducated doesn't mean unskilled. It may imply that to some people but the literal meaning of those two words are not equivalent. That's it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Not exactly how the importation of cheaply and foreign-made products has "increased the standard of living", but I'll limit my response to saying that use of phrases like "shifted the paradigm" and fairly simplistic "capitalist" arguments aren't especially convincing. Oh, and minus 10 points for implying that I'd preface any of my replies with lame insults like "evil bastard", "dumb monkey", or "brainwashed tool". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 cool, i wont argue with you, because obviously you're right! how could you be wrong? you have friends who want to be police officers! ur the silly one here. i have friends who are studying to be police officers and firefighters in college. they need the college degree to be COMPETITIVE applicants to police/firefighting academies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 uneducated = unskilled for the vast majority of the population (excluding those born with an incredible natural talent in something which cannot be improved through education, eg. pro athlete) You should read the book Outliers. It details how a huge amount of pro athelete or even academic success is attributable to luck and chance rather than talent. It's very interesting how even what we consider "massive natural talent" is due to a small advantage of talent being multiplied by chance and societal systems in order to make a self fufilling prophesy. I'm reading it currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 cool, i wont argue with you, because obviously you're right! how could you be wrong? you have friends who want to be police officers! I'll make the exact opposite argument that was presented to you, with the exact same quality of evidence. I have at least 5 friends who have become police officers in the past 4 years, with 3 starting in the past year. Both provincial and RCMP. None needed degrees to get accepted or to be competative. At completion of training (ranging from 6 months to 1 year) they were all awarded a badge and a DIPLOMA, not a degree. All were educated by the force or a combination force-post secondary institution. I will also state that while no degree is needed to be able to join the police, it is certainly beneficial if you want to advance into the higher command/management ranks. One of the older police officers I know, who is very very high in the RCMP has university level business management training/degree. If you are managing an organization of a few hundred/thousand people, you need some knowledge of how organizations work and are run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharmingHedgehog Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 You CAN be in the military right out of high school. However, they encourage people with post secondary and professional degrees to apply, and those who enter get a signing bonus and/or tuition paid for and/or less taxing physical training and/or higher rank on entry. Source: 3 of my classmates actually signed up to be military pharmacists, undergone physical training, and have been assigned to bases upon graduation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phosgenic Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 You should read the book Outliers. It details how a huge amount of pro athelete or even academic success is attributable to luck and chance rather than talent. It's very interesting how even what we consider "massive natural talent" is due to a small advantage of talent being multiplied by chance and societal systems in order to make a self fufilling prophesy. I'm reading it currently. I can't wait to get my hands on this book! My buddy was telling me about it, it sounds filthy... but with regards to having success being attributable to luck and chance rather than talent....if the book truly does make this case... its left the main ingredient out of the equation... hard work... without it, talent doesn't mean much. That and perseverance, and success is assured in one way or another 95% of the time. You get what you want or you die trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkentm Posted June 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 cool, i wont argue with you, because obviously you're right! how could you be wrong? you have friends who want to be police officers! wtf is this supposed to mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkentm Posted June 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 I'll make the exact opposite argument that was presented to you, with the exact same quality of evidence. I have at least 5 friends who have become police officers in the past 4 years, with 3 starting in the past year. Both provincial and RCMP. None needed degrees to get accepted or to be competative. At completion of training (ranging from 6 months to 1 year) they were all awarded a badge and a DIPLOMA, not a degree. All were educated by the force or a combination force-post secondary institution. I will also state that while no degree is needed to be able to join the police, it is certainly beneficial if you want to advance into the higher command/management ranks. One of the older police officers I know, who is very very high in the RCMP has university level business management training/degree. If you are managing an organization of a few hundred/thousand people, you need some knowledge of how organizations work and are run. may have to do with where you live. my experience is within the GTA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dentopia11 Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 i think we all need a premed101 union to represent disgruntled premed101 members...we will fight for moderator voting rights, increase in post count, and promotion to senior members for all current junior members...otherwise we'll go on a rotating strike c'mon my comment was at least mildly amusing:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 very amusing c'mon my comment was at least mildly amusing:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 i was being facetious. there's no use beating a dead horse . wtf is this supposed to mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 I can't wait to get my hands on this book! My buddy was telling me about it, it sounds filthy... but with regards to having success being attributable to luck and chance rather than talent....if the book truly does make this case... its left the main ingredient out of the equation... hard work... without it, talent doesn't mean much. That and perseverance, and success is assured in one way or another 95% of the time. You get what you want or you die trying. Hard work is covered too, but I just read that part in the past hour, so I didn't know to include it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phosgenic Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Hard work is covered too, but I just read that part in the past hour, so I didn't know to include it. word. i cant wait to read it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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