As a medical student, when do you start earning?

[Leon]

It looks to me like the first two years at most ONT medical schools is knowledge-based learning, followed by clinical rotations in the last two years. Some schools incorporate clinicals into all four years.

Is my understanding correct that you start getting paid from Day 1 of residency? If so, generally what's the pay like and is it constant throughout residency? To what extent does it vary between residency training in the different specialities?

 

I'm trying to get a feel for how long I would potentially be in debt.

Thanks

[deeman101]

You get paid only when in residency (yes from day one). All residency programs (and fellowships I believe?) in Canada get paid the same according to province and # years spent in residency training. All the info you need on salaries found here: http://www.carms.ca/eng/r1_program_salaries_e.shtml

 

Not a huge difference for most provinces except for Quebec.

[leviathan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think some Canadian schools do offer a small stipend during the clinical years. It doesn't really make sense to me as they could just lower the cost of tuition by the amount of the stipend, but nevertheless I guess it's nice to get some money back.

[rmorelan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think some Canadian schools do offer a small stipend during the clinical years. It doesn't really make sense to me as they could just lower the cost of tuition by the amount of the stipend, but nevertheless I guess it's nice to get some money back.

 

this is true if you are in Ontario at least - the amount is 9000 and it comes from the OMA not the school. It appears at a some point during clerkship - at Western you get payed starting in the July of your 3rd year and it goes for one year (2250 every 3 months). Not a pile of money but it does pretty much cover everyones extra expenses during electives here in the worst case.

 

Some pointed out the carms payment schedule - it is actually not bad pay really so still being an apprentice of sorts. We also have so many tax credits by that point that we really don't pay any tax either for the first about 2 years if I am recalling correctly. There is often a small call cash bonus as well for each shift.

[rmorelan]

this is true if you are in Ontario at least - the amount is 9000 and it comes from the OMA not the school. It appears at a some point during clerkship - at Western you get payed starting in the July of your 3rd year and it goes for one year (2250 every 3 months). Not a pile of money but it does pretty much cover everyones extra expenses during electives here in the worst case.

 

Some pointed out the carms payment schedule - it is actually not bad pay really so still being an apprentice of sorts. We also have so many tax credits by that point that we really don't pay any tax either for the first about 2 years if I am recalling correctly. There is often a small call cash bonus as well for each shift.

 

that bonus is 100 or so for each call shift in hospital - peanuts extra for the time you spend if you think that way (which is probably not wise ) but if you are call 1/4 or so you can see how it does add up to a several thousand more a year if the what I have been told is correct. Covers the cost of the car at least.

[medigeek]

this is true if you are in Ontario at least - the amount is 9000 and it comes from the OMA not the school. It appears at a some point during clerkship - at Western you get payed starting in the July of your 3rd year and it goes for one year (2250 every 3 months). Not a pile of money but it does pretty much cover everyones extra expenses during electives here in the worst case.

 

Some pointed out the carms payment schedule - it is actually not bad pay really so still being an apprentice of sorts. We also have so many tax credits by that point that we really don't pay any tax either for the first about 2 years if I am recalling correctly. There is often a small call cash bonus as well for each shift.

 

interesting... so by year 2 of residency you're essentially making as much as a guy who's gross yearly pay is about 90-95k. (after considering the tax factor)

[rmorelan]

interesting... so by year 2 of residency you're essentially making as much as a guy who's gross yearly pay is about 90-95k. (after considering the tax factor)

 

Yeah sound about right - it is about 75k in year one tax wise due to the marginal rates etc so yeah you are doing ok

 

You are Not doing badly at all is the bottom line.

 

It helps that your first year is only 6 months ( july to Jan) due to the drop in effective yearly income tax wise as well. First 10k is tax free after all. Oh I wasn't consider any ug tax credits in that math by the way and that can extend things.

[NLengr]

Yeah sound about right - it is about 75k in year one tax wise due to the marginal rates etc so yeah you are doing ok

 

You are Not doing badly at all is the bottom line.

 

It helps that your first year is only 6 months ( july to Jan) due to the drop in effective yearly income tax wise as well. First 10k is tax free after all. Oh I wasn't consider any ug tax credits in that math by the way and that can extend things.

 

Also, if you have to relocate, you can claim a whole bunch of stuff as moving expenses and get an even bigger refund.

 

The CaRMS data was out of date last I looked (NL now is near to top pay in Canada, while it was listed as the old, crappy payscale). You can go on the PAIRO (and other provincial equivalent sites) for the most recent contracts.

[Satsuma]

So below is the table you can find on the PAIRO website. This is for Ontario.

The table copied funny, essentially the last column in the most recent scale. The previous columns are just previous years so irrelevant but I can't seem to delete just them.

 

To the OP - if you are covering you med school on your own with student loans/LOC you will be in debt for awhile! No resident expects to pay off their loans during residency. But it is nice in residency to at least be making money instead of going into more debt for sure! If you have enough tax credits (assuming you didn't give them to your parents/spouse etc) then you will have enough to get your taxes back for at least the first year and likely your second. But after that you probably won't have any left.

 

The pay is the same no matter your specialty.

 

 

 

 

PGY1 $48,115 $48,597 $49,569 $50,064 $51,065

PGY2 $56,164 $56,726 $57,860 $58,439 $59,608

PGY3 $59,577 $60,173 $61,376 $61,990 $63,230

PGY4 $63,612 $64,248 $65,533 $66,189 $67,512

PGY5 $67,836 $68,514 $69,885 $70,584 $71,995

PGY6 $71,807 $72,525 $73,976 $74,715 $76,210

PGY7 $74,644 $75,390 $76,898 $77,667 $79,220

PGY8 $78,868 $79,657 $81,250 $82,063 $83,704

PGY9 $83,093 $83,924 $85,603 $86,459 $88,188

[MedPen]

So below is the table you can find on the PAIRO website. This is for Ontario.

The table copied funny, essentially the last column in the most recent scale. The previous columns are just previous years so irrelevant but I can't seem to delete just them.

 

To the OP - if you are covering you med school on your own with student loans/LOC you will be in debt for awhile! No resident expects to pay off their loans during residency. But it is nice in residency to at least be making money instead of going into more debt for sure! If you have enough tax credits (assuming you didn't give them to your parents/spouse etc) then you will have enough to get your taxes back for at least the first year and likely your second. But after that you probably won't have any left.

 

The pay is the same no matter your specialty.

 

 

 

 

PGY1 $48,115 $48,597 $49,569 $50,064 $51,065

PGY2 $56,164 $56,726 $57,860 $58,439 $59,608

PGY3 $59,577 $60,173 $61,376 $61,990 $63,230

PGY4 $63,612 $64,248 $65,533 $66,189 $67,512

PGY5 $67,836 $68,514 $69,885 $70,584 $71,995

PGY6 $71,807 $72,525 $73,976 $74,715 $76,210

PGY7 $74,644 $75,390 $76,898 $77,667 $79,220

PGY8 $78,868 $79,657 $81,250 $82,063 $83,704

PGY9 $83,093 $83,924 $85,603 $86,459 $88,188

 

What are PG76-PGY9 for? I thought the longest residency was 5 years. Is this for someone doing fellowships?

[Lactic Folly]

There are 6 year residencies. PGY6+ are also for people extending their training by programs such as Clinician Investigator, or who enroll in ministry-funded, Royal College-accredited fellowship programs.

[deeman101]

I had no idea ontario schools give a stipend for clerkship. At mcgill the tuition fee is reduced every year through the 4 years to reflect the less lecture hours and more clerkship / call time.

 

With a 5 year residency I think you potentially can pay off your student loans. Which of course depends a lot on UG debts, how expensive a lifestyle you had and plan to have, etc. One good thing is theres usually a way to keep government loans interest free during residency so you can focus on paying your LOC first.

[Leon]

Awesome, thanks for the info everyone. A $50-60K entry salary during residency's pretty good. I didn't expect to pay off debts by the end of residency but at least it can be done within a few years of completing residency.

[rmorelan]

What are PG76-PGY9 for? I thought the longest residency was 5 years. Is this for someone doing fellowships?

 

No neuro surf can sometime stretch things as I understand it.

 

Cardiac is 6 as well

[rmorelan]

Awesome, thanks for the info everyone. A $50-60K entry salary during residency's pretty good. I didn't expect to pay off debts by the end of residency but at least it can be done within a few years of completing residency.

 

Sure - for many they just try to enjoy residency as best they can and perhaps pay some/all of the interest. They with the salary bump you can go to town.

 

Still if you leave like a med student for a bit in residency you can really get a solid bit out of things. (30K a year give or take for a bunch of it). Still I wouldn't get too stressed out about it all things considered.

[Corie]

If your really worried about your loans, concider the armed forces. They will pay your medical school tuition + allowances if you plan on working for them for 4 years after graduation. It somewhat limits you to family practice however.

[JB.]

If your really worried about your loans, concider the armed forces. They will pay your medical school tuition + allowances if you plan on working for them for 4 years after graduation. It somewhat limits you to family practice however.

 

As someone whose husband is in the CF, I would really encourage you not to join the military soley for the benefit of having your loans paid off. It will not be worth it if you don't already have some sort of drive/interest in joining the military.

[rmorelan]

As someone whose husband is in the CF, I would really encourage you not to join the military soley for the benefit of having your loans paid off. It will not be worth it if you don't already have some sort of drive/interest in joining the military.

 

yeah it would seem a bit pointless to me to do that. There are many other ways of also paying things off faster without lifestyle adjustments you may not be interested in.

 

If you have interest in it though by all means look into it!

[moo]

Also remember that not all fellowships pay at the same rate. It's only CFPC/RC-accredited fellowship programs that you would get paid at the appropriate pay scales. There are many non-RC/non-CFPC that pay their fellows only about 20-30k a year.

[Satsuma]

I had no idea ontario schools give a stipend for clerkship. At mcgill the tuition fee is reduced every year through the 4 years to reflect the less lecture hours and more clerkship / call time.

 

Ontario schools do not give a stipend for clerkship.

 

There is a "stipend" that comes from the OMA (Ontario Medical Association). Essentially practicing MDs decided to give money to students in clerkship to help with the costs of medical education. This was decided some time after the stipend the government used to give the med students in clerkship was taken away. So this money does not come from schools or the government. It comes from your future colleagues.

[Satsuma]

What are PG76-PGY9 for? I thought the longest residency was 5 years. Is this for someone doing fellowships?

 

Exactly - so you may decide to do neurosurgery followed by a 2 year ICU fellowship. Or say, medicine then cardiology then ICU.

 

So it allows for all the sub-sub specializing!