A question about work ethics.

[Guest Blaze]

And so I asked my high school guidance consellor

"How much are my marks expected to fall in University?"

"Oh...about 5-20% depending on your work ethic"

"Ahh, I see"

 

Now herein lies the problem - I am a MAJOR procrastinator. I do everything the night before...EVERYTHING - tests, ISUs, Projects - all the night before. I don't really get time to sleep because of this crazy habit of mine. And so...I don't really have much of a work ethic.

 

Of course if I want my marks to be good to apply for medical school, I've got to make sure I have a good work ethic. How do you guys/gals study at University? Would some of you mind sharing your studying habits and studying tips with me? Thanks.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Sorry - I wrote a full response but it seems to have been replaced by an "HTML comments not aloud" message. Ian - any idea why? It's the second time it's happened to me. I only realized the mistake now so that's the reason for the edit.

 

Anyways. . . I think how your University performance compares to undergrad can be HIGHLY variable. I know people whose marks worsened, and for others their marks improved - though admittedly I know more of the former than the latter. Most often the people who did better in University were slackers in High School who chose programs they were INTERESTED in and so got motivated, for the ones who experienced substantial drops in marks, often the problem was choosing programs they were not interested in. . .

 

One thing that helps in University, though, is you no longer really have to shoot for marks in the high 90s. When competing for scholarships out of High School, I found every little percent counted. . . studying a whole lot more just to get a 96 rather than 95 seemed worthwhile back then. At my High School, at least, you weren't in the top 5% of students without a 95%+ average! In University, I'd say getting marks like that that is practically impossible. . . but don't worry! Many universities use GPA systems, and the ones that use percentages are misleading because med schools (and other professional schools as well, I believe) use the GPA system even if the university doesn't.

 

What's the difference? Well, in the percentage system your "overall mark" is usually a reflection of every little percentage you've gotten. . . so to be the top student you often have to score well over 90 in classes. In the gpa system, the highest mark is an A+ (or 4.0 on the OMSAS gpa scale). For many university courses, A+ is set at 90%. . . in other words, getting over 90% is of NO VALUE to you (though you should ALWAYS try your best. . .) It does take some of the stress off, though.

 

To repeat that. . . med schools use the GPA system, not a percentage mark. As a result percentage marks can be misleading. I found that for admissions to meds, a GPA of 3.7 (equal to an A-, usually 80% in courses) should be your minimum goal. People get in with higher and lower GPAs, but that is sort of the minimum GPA that will get you an interview at the majority of schools in Canada.

 

So your goal should be to get almost all of your courses over 80%, not maximize your percentage. On the OMSAS scale, you basically lose more for every mark you have below 80% than you gain for very mark above (a B+ is worth 3.3, an A- 3.7, an A 3.9, and a A+ 4.0. . . if you want to average 3.7, every B+ you get needs to be counteracted by either an A+ or a couple of As. . .) Percentages can be misleading. . . Having an overall percentage of 81% can lead to highly variable GPAs. If that 81% is based on getting 81% in every single course, you're flying with a 3.7. If that 81%, however, consists of half your courses with marks of 83% and half your courses with marks of 79%, then your GPA would only be a 3.5 (half your courses would be worth B+/3.3 and the other half A-/3.7). It's possible to get into meds with a 3.5 but a fair bit more difficult.

 

So, just to reiterate, in University CONSISTENCY is more important than OUTSTANDING ACHIEVEMENT in a limited number of courses. . . don't stress out if you're marks aren't 95%+, but do try to hit that 80% in every course you take (a couple of 'B+'s and 'B's are fine. . . GPA cutoffs at Western and Queen's tend to be around the 3.6 range and a few 'A's and 'A+'s will counteract the occasional mark in the B range.)

[Guest apoptosome]

yeah, i heard the same from counselors and teachers and other students who went ahead of me.. that your marks will drop 10%.. i think for alot of people this might come true, because (especially if u live on res) everything is so new and its so easy to get distracted, especially at u of t where there's no end of things more attractive than studying. but for most people, i don't see them totally changing their attitude in university. people who excelled in high school will excel in university, and those that were bums in highschool will, yes, still be bums. sure, they might start out all gungho about it, but its all a test of what you're really made of inside... and 3 years is a long time to keep up an attitude that isn't you.. that having been said, most people i know procrastinate and pull all-niters.. that seems to be the norm, not the exception. just try to not leave EVERYTHING to the final night. i know its next to impossible and easy to say, but you just have to chip away at projects when you can. and since you've defined this crazy habit of yours, you're that much closer to fixing it, right? i know, i know.. easier said than done...

[Guest Blaze]

Thanks Apoptosome. I'll keep that in mind.

[Guest aneliz]

Do try not to leave everything to the night before - here is the reason. You may be able to complete an entire high school ISU or study for an entire high school exam in one night and still get an 80. However, the equivalent amount of effort on a university assignment or exam (ie 1 night's worth) will usually land you a mark between 55-65%. Moral of the story: the amount of effort that got you an 80 in high school will not get you an 80 in university. Unless you are a super-human genius, you will not be able to pull off 80's if you start the night before. Believe me, I've tried! There is just not enough time in one night!!!! That said, the all-nighter is still a very valid method of panic studying and while it is not something I regularly do (emergencies only) I am just as guilty as everyone else of leaving things to the last minute.

[Guest 70er]

On that note, I'd like to add that I just finished a four-year "premed" program at one of the really competitive universities. One of my last exams was in physiology, a 2nd year course elective that I chose to take. I found that after four years of learning to memorize every detail, I was able to start studying an entire term of stuff 24 hours before the actual test to pull off a 72% on the final exam. Luckily, I had a high enough 1st term mark to pull me up, but I barely slept that night (about 1.5 hours only) and was scared as sh*t because I knew that I needed the marks to maintain a med school acceptance. However, I imagine that without "4 years of training," I would not be able to do it. I mean no offence when I say this, but you simply do not have the skill and/or stamina to pull off an all-nighter and do well. There is too much material to memorize (imagine your entire year's of Gr12 biology multiplied three times). In my final hours of studying (for my last exam in B.Sc undergrad!), I was selectively choosing what to study and what to forget. This selectivity is something you learn along the way too. Hope this helps.

[Guest cram clam]

I graduated from university doing mostly cramming. One personal tip, if you are a crammer at least attend all the lectures so there's a bit of "primer" to work from when you study for the exam! Unless you are a real expert at self-learning you will be in big trouble if you skipped a bunch of lectures and just got the notes to read from.

[Guest Da Birdie]

Strongly agree to cram clam's notion!

 

As I'm cramming for a 50% microbio exam (12.5 hours from now) and another 50% immuno exam (12.5+24 hours from now) , I am glad I didn't skip any lecs...

 

the "primer" is definitely very very important

 

wish myself luck~

 

time to cram my a$$ off !

[Guest Beaver]

Crammings not bad and many times its the only option. My advice to you is to make sure you really try and learn what the important points and themes are. Unlike highschool where you can learn every detail in the text and class, University throws alot of material at you. You need to be able to figure out what will be covered on tests and exams. That's another reason to go to class, profs love to cover what they taught in and often provide little hints on what may be tested. If you try to learn every little detail from the textbook, you may find yourself overwhelmed and unable to get through all the info. So focus on what you think will be covered rather than trying to cover everything. Of course this is an aquired skill and as your university career moves forward you will start to develop a "sixth sense" about what material you may see on the test.

[Guest MDCY]

There was an analogy that I thought was very fitting to the amount of information you learn in med school. It's like putting your mouth to a fire hydrant and turning it on at full-blast...you will get blown away by the shear amount of information. As I was talking to a med student, they said that one of the most important things you have to learn is to learn what you don't need to know. It's not to say that you should forget 90% of what you hear in lecture but it is important to know the basic core principles and then expand on it. Getting back onto the topic, this is a valuable asset/skill to acquire during your undergrad degree. In high school, you could afford to learn everything they taught you in class but once you enter the realm of "higher learning", it becomes very difficult to learn everything unless you have the gift of photographic memory. Even then, it is more important to know the reasoning behind what you learn rather than straight memorization. The higher level courses will test your comprehension/understanding of the principles rather than test you on your memory skills. Anyway, I think I've given more than my two pence on the issue

Cheers!

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Well said. . . I agree completely!

[Guest MDO]

I'm also a high school student and i'm going to UT next year and i'm TOTALLY worried about getting good grades.

 

So what exactly is the trick to get over 90% in your courses?

 

If you guys were to do your undergrad again, what would you have done\ or would not do?

 

Thanks.

[Guest MDCY]

I would not have thought that second year would be easy after I did well in my first year. I got burned in 2nd year with the insane amount of labs and studying involved. Other than that, I would have chosen the same courses and elective/option courses.

Cheers!

[Guest queenzer]

UWOMEDS2005 just said there is no point in getting over 90. If you have limited time and "genius power" you shouldn't bother to study like crazy on something that you know you can get 90, so that you can concentrate your resources on stuff which you feel are more difficult.

 

People who get over 90 on all their courses in university are probably so smart that they can get a near-100% avg in high school without trying at all. UWOMEDS2005 has already mentioned one person, and when he left queen's his throne was passed down to another smart person who went to meds at U of T after 3. Something to be said about brain drain here?

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Actually. . . my brother was in that boat (>90 in every class) until 3rd year. . . though I think he had to work harder than the one with the "palm"s. And that sort of fell apart in 3rd year. . . he got a B in something!

 

Seriously though. . . aim for at least 80% in every course, and try to hit 85 or 90+ in as many as possible. A 3.7 is basically good enough for meds (though you might not get an interview at some schools, you'll get one at most, I believe. . .) And if you shoot for 90%+ in every course, you run the risk of burning out if it's not happening for you, and missing out on all the extra-curricular activities med schools want as well.

[Guest Beaver]

I think UWOMEDS2005 has a very good point.

 

Marks while very important is only one aspecy that professional programs assess while looking at a candidate. I have seen lots of people with 3.7-3.9 get rejected from med school because the focus was squarely on getting good marks. It doesn't make for a good interveiw. "So Mr/s X what have you done in the last 4 years that can demonstrate your interest in working with people" Well you see I spent all my time in the library and uh that place is full of people.....

 

 

Anyways thats a bit extreme but its just to make a point that in University you will encounter alot of people pulling 80's and 90's the trick is to develop your other skills as well...ie social/leadership/initiative. This is not only for Med Schools but also for yourself, I have seen people so burned out of school they are ready to retire at the end of their 4 years.

[Guest Maddog909]

If you don't start studying till the night before, which do you think is more important?: studying 4 hours and getting a good night sleep, or studying 12 hours and not sleeping at all (or only 1.5 hrs).

 

I was always afraid of what no sleep would do for my recall and did the 4 hrs. and 8hrs of sleep. Should I try it sometime, maybe it might work for me, maybe it won't.

 

And is studying the day of the exam good or bad, or is it a personal thing?

 

Thanks

CM

[Guest TimmyMax]

Hey guys,

 

Just to share my study habits gained through experience-I am of the opinion that there is no substitute for sleep and would opt for the study 4 hrs and sleep 8 out of the 12 hrs I had left. I tried the study for 12 hrs straight thing w/o sleep for a 2nd year Histo midterm and did miserably, so after that I converted to the school of get enough sleep. Besides, military studies show that you're smarter (relatively speaking of course) after a night of sleep than you are trying to function in a sleep-deprived environment. I'm inclined to agree.

 

Best of luck!

 

Timmy

[Guest Liana]

More importantly than focusing on getting those 90%+ marks, you should be concerned with NOT getting low marks. There's only a 0.3 grade point difference between an 80% and a 100%, but 1.0 point different between 70% and 80%.

 

Organization, communication with other students and the prof, and trying to understand the material as it's taught rather than putting it off for later are key skills to doing well. But remember to focus more on the courses you don't like than the courses you do. When you like a course, you'll automatically be inclined to study it, but it's hard to force yourself to study a course you don't like, especially when there are only 2 exams throughout the entire term of the course. Therefore, try and focus your energies on the areas where you're struggling; you can pull up those GPA-wrecking low marks and the enjoyable courses will work themselves out.

[Guest nighthawk]

Hi all,

 

Just to share the other side of the story - I *very* frequently pull all-nighters. I also have quite good grades.

 

You need to find out what works for YOU, not for anyone else. Some people need 8 hours of sleep before a test; for me, 8 hours of studying makes a bigger difference. Your mileage may vary! Undergrad is all about finding out what study habits work best FOR YOU.

[Guest Beaver]

If you really are strarting to study the night before, I would forget about the sleeping and get in the solid 12 hours of studying, why? Well because I think you will be runnning on your own juice and it should get you through your exam PROVIDED that you haven't been up for several nights before that...In that case you may just crash and burn.

 

Getting the info in your head once is more improtant than never seeing it at all. You may have gotten a great sleep but you cant recall what you have never seen.

[Guest Maddog909]

Do you guys need to drink a lot of coffee to study all night, or maybe chocolate covered espresso beans? Music?

 

I've heard of students using ephedrine (during the day), which I think is really stupid. Oh well... they won't go far with habits like that.

 

[Guest sleepy]

this thread reminds me of when i pulled an alll nighter for a chem final only to fall asleep halfway through the exam...lol (btw I wasn't laughing when it happened)

[Guest nighthawk]

Nope, no coffee, espresso beans, ephedrine, or anything else. :-) I'm just able to miss one to two nights of sleep before getting really tired. I do generally have to catch up on sleep later.

 

Really, I'm not suggesting that this is the best method for most people - it's most definitely not. AND there have been lots of much better suggestions for study habits here.

 

I just think that an important point is that each individual needs to work out for THEMSELVES what the best set of study habits is for them.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Liana. . . excellent point. In fact, that is exactly what I was trying to say, I just didn't word myself properly. It's better to pull your lower mark courses up than to focus on trying to get the highest mark in a class.

 

As for the discussion re: sleep vs. studying, I'd ALWAYS take sleep. I've often found many questions on university exams to be a matter of having a 'basic' understanding of the material but then being able to THINK through the question. Sleep deprivation definitely hurts your ability to 'think.' I don't think the additional 100 factoids you pick up by studying 12 hours straight make up for the common-sense errors (ie forgetting to read the "NOT" in a question) caused by lack of sleep.

 

Then again. . . I'd like to say it is CRITICAL to use your own proven learning style. Everyone studies differently. . . don't adopt someone else's style if yours works!