Residents in the US are using "recall" to help them pass board exams...

[aaronjw]

http://ht.cdn.turner.com/cnn/big/bestoftv/2012/01/13/ac-griffin-radiologist-prescription-cheating.cnn.ipad.qtref.mov

 

 

Interesting video.

[Applemanv3]

Very interesting story. I remember going through much of UofT undergrad studying and doing practice tests from previous years.

 

Many friends of mine have stated that in other universities, this is done under the table, but at UofT, you can walk into the Faculty of Arts and Sciences and literally ask officials to photocopy past exams.

 

When I was in high school, I had never even thought about the idea. But, during undergrad at UofT, most people were doing this, so I never considered cheating (especially since it was made officially available). I mean, regardless of how many past tests are studied, each year, there is a new selection of questions and doing past tests well in and of itself requires the right knowledge and skills as a prerequisite.

 

This is not the case at The Michener Institute. No tests are available.

 

I find the story extremely one-sided. Since when did smart studying with good resources become cheating? Nobody could cheat on a real patient during residency. Radiology residents have to know what they are doing practically to be able to make it through the program without being sued/disciplined to the bone (no pun intended). I fear that although there are 2 sides to this story, only the one of an oversimplified idea of "cheating" as we know it from grade school (maybe not even that, since this cheating is done prior to the exam and in the residents' heads), is being shown here.

 

What are your thoughts, PM101ers?

[leap87]

I would consider this cheating if the questions were exactly the same as from past tests (which it seemed like they were from the video) and if they were using it during the exam. BUT, I agree with Applemanv3 in that they needed to recall these questions and answers. Hence they had to go over all of the tests and actually study for an exam. It's never guaranteed you'll remember everything from prior tests.

 

I remember as an undergraduate, I was able to get my hands on past years' exams for chemistry, stats, research methods, etc. but the questions were changed. The style and the difficulty of the questions was the same though... But because the questions were different from previous years, I never thought of it as cheating.

 

However, I came into a situation once when I saw my peers using assignments from previous years to pass their assignments. They were exactly the same... At the time and even now, I believed this was cheating. However, I didn't really care because I wasn't using them and I knew that some day this would probably come and bite them in the @$$.

 

Some people just suck at taking tests, but when it comes to applying the knowledge they excel. So I can see why some might use this....

[bpatient]

How are you guys viewing the video, link doesn't work for me

[medigeek]

I used past tests all throughout highschool and in my 1st semester of uni last year. They always help you LEARN the material (which is what the point of school even is), so never saw the tiniest issue with this.

[leviathan]

It depends on the way you use them. If you're just memorizing answers to a large bank of prior exam questions without learning anything, with the expectation that those questions will be on your real exam, that would be cheating IMO.

[lostintime]

Well it's never cheating if the school allows you access to the tests, regardless of whether you are learning from it. Unless you're talking about "cheating yourself".

[Minion]

How are you guys viewing the video, link doesn't work for me

 

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/13/health/prescription-for-cheating/index.html

 

I would consider what they were doing cheating because they are breaking the rules :/ However, some profs. actually give their students past exams so that the students are better prepared. There are also exams banks which provide good practice and are really helpful as study material (without past exams, I would not have performed as good as I did).

[leviathan]

Well it's never cheating if the school allows you access to the tests, regardless of whether you are learning from it. Unless you're talking about "cheating yourself".

When schools provide old exams then it's assumed those exact questions won't be on future exams, so you can't cheat. Learning the concepts presented in questions on old exams is not cheating yourself either.

[Robin Hood]

At UdeM, in Maths, in Physics, in Chemistry, and in Computer Sciences (don't know about the rest), you can freely download exams from past years (provided you're an UdeMien).

 

Very interesting story. I remember going through much of UofT undergrad studying and doing practice tests from previous years.

 

Many friends of mine have stated that in other universities, this is done under the table, but at UofT, you can walk into the Faculty of Arts and Sciences and literally ask officials to photocopy past exams.

 

When I was in high school, I had never even thought about the idea. But, during undergrad at UofT, most people were doing this, so I never considered cheating (especially since it was made officially available). I mean, regardless of how many past tests are studied, each year, there is a new selection of questions and doing past tests well in and of itself requires the right knowledge and skills as a prerequisite.

 

This is not the case at The Michener Institute. No tests are available.

 

I find the story extremely one-sided. Since when did smart studying with good resources become cheating? Nobody could cheat on a real patient during residency. Radiology residents have to know what they are doing practically to be able to make it through the program without being sued/disciplined to the bone (no pun intended). I fear that although there are 2 sides to this story, only the one of an oversimplified idea of "cheating" as we know it from grade school (maybe not even that, since this cheating is done prior to the exam and in the residents' heads), is being shown here.

 

What are your thoughts, PM101ers?

[lolelol]

When schools provide old exams then it's assumed those exact questions won't be on future exams, so you can't cheat. Learning the concepts presented in questions on old exams is not cheating yourself either.

 

Not at york

[MedPen]

I don't think it's a big deal. They passed the oral portion of the exam and they probably learned a lot while studying from old exams.

[bpatient]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/13/health/prescription-for-cheating/index.html

 

I would consider what they were doing cheating because they are breaking the rules :/ However, some profs. actually give their students past exams so that the students are better prepared. There are also exams banks which provide good practice and are really helpful as study material (without past exams, I would not have performed as good as I did).

 

Thanks alot Minion!

[Mourning Cloak]

Boy, CNN has really come down in the world. Journalism as yellow as a starfruit!

 

The real story is

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=882205

 

1. Every resident tries to remember the questions that were asked, and passes them down. The only "crime" in this is copyright violation.

2. The licensing boards are fully aware that this is going on (a study published in 2008 apparently reported that the majority of radiology residents used "recalls").

3. This particular guy was dismissed for "conduct unbecoming" and decided to make trouble.

4. CNN has blind gibbons working as fact checkers.

[NLengr]

Not cheating. It's guided studying.

 

The things on recall are notes like "know Bosniak classes of renal cysts".

 

These guys aren't in there with a list of a-c-b-a-a-d...

 

CNN us trying to make a story, that us all.

[IamIDP]

Not at york

 

I go to York and for courses like Chem 1000/1001 they give you past tests/exams. They do not recycle any of the questions, lol so I do not know what you are talking about.

[notjk]

I go to York and for courses like Chem 1000/1001 they give you past tests/exams. They do not recycle any of the questions, lol so I do not know what you are talking about.

 

Not "all" of yorku works like that, some profs do, some profs don't etc. And that comment reminded me of when I had to take CHEM1000/1001. ( Dr.Fourneir all the way! too bad hes not teaching this year)

[lolelol]

I go to York and for courses like Chem 1000/1001 they give you past tests/exams. They do not recycle any of the questions, lol so I do not know what you are talking about.

 

There's a supplementary exam package that the Chem Society (chemistry club) sells with exams from 2009 and 2005 that they encourage you to get for extra practice. There were quite a few questions in hempstead's class from the 2005 tests, at least one question from every test was from the package that you're talking about, and 10/11 pages of the final exam was identical to the 2005 exam. (This is for 2011 fall chem 1000)

Now you know what I'm talking about

[Applemanv3]

The entire premise of the CNN story is ridiculous. Is it cheating to do homework problems in any course?

 

Is it cheating to take MCAT prep courses and/or use materials that present past MCAT questions?

 

Is it cheating to remember the specifics of a prior experience with a patient's condition to treat future patients?

 

Is it cheating to use Toronto Notes to memorize values and facts to answer questions on board exams?

 

I can't believe the audacity of Anderson Cooper to actually go along with such a horrible take on the reality of the system. I'm not saying there aren't bad learning strategies or corner-cutting going on, but "recalls" would fall at the bottom of the suspicious list in medicine and medical education, IMHO.

 

Good thread, aaronjw! Stirred up some good discussion.

[IamIDP]

There's a supplementary exam package that the Chem Society (chemistry club) sells with exams from 2009 and 2005 that they encourage you to get for extra practice. There were quite a few questions in hempstead's class from the 2005 tests, at least one question from every test was from the package that you're talking about, and 10/11 pages of the final exam was identical to the 2005 exam. (This is for 2011 fall chem 1000)

Now you know what I'm talking about

 

I had Hastie so I didn't know. But most profs. do not do that.

[dy727]

Happens ALL the time.

 

and wen you happend to find out that others had access to a past final that included 50% of the questions on your final, you get PISSED (but dumb for not having had that resource earlier)

[apache]

here's a tip, sign up for a class like a year or semester before you want to take it, then drop it right before the add-drop dealine like 2 weeks in... you'll stay on the webct or vista site if they have it, and some profs are too lazy to take down the class so you'll have lots of goodies that may be potential exam questions, and this isn't cheating, it's just instructor laziness, as there is no explicit intent on the part of the student.

[zainy1993]

here's a tip, sign up for a class like a year or semester before you want to take it, then drop it right before the add-drop dealine like 2 weeks in... you'll stay on the webct or vista site if they have it, and some profs are too lazy to take down the class so you'll have lots of goodies that may be potential exam questions, and this isn't cheating, it's just instructor laziness, as there is no explicit intent on the part of the student.

 

+1, does anybody know whether this type of stuff happens in Ontario UG programs?

[mm88]

I have some doubt that this is a classic whistleblowing case. I'm glad CNN actually mentioned something about Capt Webb's "troubles", it almost seems like he might be trying to get back at the military for charging him with "conduct unbecoming"!

[leap87]

here's a tip, sign up for a class like a year or semester before you want to take it, then drop it right before the add-drop dealine like 2 weeks in... you'll stay on the webct or vista site if they have it, and some profs are too lazy to take down the class so you'll have lots of goodies that may be potential exam questions, and this isn't cheating, it's just instructor laziness, as there is no explicit intent on the part of the student.

 

Don't you lose money like that, muse?