Knovecc Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 sorry if the question was asked already a million times I saw on cihi.ca that some relatively "poor" provinces pay quite well their IM (all subspecialties altogether) docs, such as Newfoundland, NB, from the data: AB, SK = 400k+ NL (!!), NB (!!), ON (yre right, Ontario!!) = 350-400k BC = 300-350k MB (but it's western Canada!!), NS = 250-300k QC lowest as usual can someone confirm me that those numbers are not totally BS ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheech10 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 ON seems about right for the average. Certain subspecialties make far more, and GIM working a lot of overnight shifts will also make more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 I'm kind of curious. Que always seems to be the lowest in terms of remuneration. How it is that they get people to stay there when they can move and pretty much make double than what they're making in Quebec? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justletmein Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 I'm kind of curious. Que always seems to be the lowest in terms of remuneration. How it is that they get people to stay there when they can move and pretty much make double than what they're making in Quebec? Language. People are afraid to move elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandibular Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 I'm kind of curious. Que always seems to be the lowest in terms of remuneration. How it is that they get people to stay there when they can move and pretty much make double than what they're making in Quebec? also for the low cost of living and tuition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 sorry if the question was asked already a million timesI saw on cihi.ca that some relatively "poor" provinces pay quite well their IM (all subspecialties altogether) docs, such as Newfoundland, NB, from the data: AB, SK = 400k+ NL (!!), NB (!!), ON (yre right, Ontario!!) = 350-400k BC = 300-350k MB (but it's western Canada!!), NS = 250-300k QC lowest as usual can someone confirm me that those numbers are not totally BS ? Hate to shatter your stereotypical view of the country, but you realize that NL is a have (aka rich) province right? Ontario is now a have not (aka poor) province. I have to correct someone saying this at least once a week in Ontario. Drives me nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knovecc Posted February 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Hate to shatter your stereotypical view of the country, but you realize that NL is a have (aka rich) province right? Ontario is now a have not (aka poor) province. sorry NLengr for any offence... actually I really enjoyed my stay in St. John's, quite a nice small city. Having said that, it doesn't look any booming like Calgary However, I checked online and found the GDP per capita of NL is the 3rd in the country, only after AB and SK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 St. Johns tries to preserve the Historic look of the city because it's a major tourism draw. Hence it looks rather quaint for a rapidly growing economy. No offense taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost dog Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 ON seems about right for the average. Certain subspecialties make far more, and GIM working a lot of overnight shifts will also make more. Note: The "internal medicine" average gross in this report may seem exagerrated, as they are included together with the higher paying specialities such as : GI (scoping for dollars) and Cards ( along with general internal medicine). https://secure.cihi.ca/estore/productFamily.htm?locale=en&pf=PFC1678 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheech10 Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 True, but even GIM in Ontario averages 350 to 400K for full time non-academic work, in my experience. Gross billings, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 GI (scoping for dollars) I think I've heard this before but it's still hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloh Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 True, but even GIM in Ontario averages 350 to 400K for full time non-academic work, in my experience. Gross billings, that is. What qualifies as full work? I'm presuming they aren't paying overhead besides a shared admin assistant at most? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheech10 Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Full time work definition depends, as there are many different models for GIM. The flexibility is one of the best things about IM in my opinion. Consults in the ER are the most lucrative, especially as there are often stipends for overnight work, but most people do less than 7 shifts a month. Ward consults to surgical floors are also pretty good. Inpatient ward attending work can be lucrative, but you have to have a large service which can be exhausting if you don't take a lot of weeks off. Outpatient clinic work too, but you need to have a well organized clinic with large volumes. Overhead similarly varies, from none for inpatient work, to high if you have an outpatient clinic. Someone who does primarily inpatient work may only have a half time admin assistant, so 20 to 25K of expenses per year, while an outpatient clinic could have 2 to 4 times that in expenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knovecc Posted February 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Note: The "internal medicine" average gross in this report may seem exagerrated, as they are included together with the higher paying specialities such as : GI (scoping for dollars) and Cards ( along with general internal medicine). https://secure.cihi.ca/estore/productFamily.htm?locale=en&pf=PFC1678 on the other end, it also includes the low-paying specialties such as endo, geriatrics etc so I dont think including the subspecialties significantly biases the numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost dog Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 What qualifies as full work? I'm presuming they aren't paying overhead besides a shared admin assistant at most? Nothing in life is free; you have to take call for GIM. Lots of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knovecc Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 https://secure.cihi.ca/estore/productFamily.htm?locale=en&pf=PFC1678 interesting to remark that in NL the average pay of IM is 400k, while the average per full-time-equivalent is only 293k on the other side, in Qc the average is 272k, but the fte is 300k so does it mean that QC docs work significantly less hours than NL??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moo Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 https://secure.cihi.ca/estore/productFamily.htm?locale=en&pf=PFC1678 interesting to remark that in NL the average pay of IM is 400k, while the average per full-time-equivalent is only 293k on the other side, in Qc the average is 272k, but the fte is 300k so does it mean that QC docs work significantly less hours than NL??? Having just numbers is kind of meaningless in this debate. Is the average pay of 400K gross billings? Net income? Or salary? A salary of 250K is equivalent to approximately 400K in gross billings (for a family doctor, more or less for other specialties, depending on overhead). This is because salary includes benefits (paid vacation, pension, dental, medical, etc.). "Only" 293 K seems like pittance compared to 400K, but in all honesty, I'd rather have a 293K salary over 400K gross billings. Of course, in my world, I actually will have both when I'm done my residency. If the average they quote is after taxes, then it makes sense that in QC they take home much less. So, unless they kind of say what exactly these numbers correspond to, it's hard to draw any conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knovecc Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Moo all the numbers are gross billing so you can see quebec is paid less, while paying the highest tax rate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moo Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I doubt this is because doctors in QC work less. This is likely because doctors in QC are PAID less for the same service. It's well known that QC is the lowest paying province for doctors. Thus, you may bill 90 dollars for an initial consult in BC, but can only bill 60 dollars for the same thing in QC. And factor in the high tax rate is the main reason why many doctors stay away from QC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Medward Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I doubt this is because doctors in QC work less. This is likely because doctors in QC are PAID less for the same service. It's well known that QC is the lowest paying province for doctors. Thus, you may bill 90 dollars for an initial consult in BC, but can only bill 60 dollars for the same thing in QC. And factor in the high tax rate is the main reason why many doctors stay away from QC. Yes, but the cost of living in QC is probably 1/3 that of BC. With differences in the cost to buy a house making up the majority of the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Second Daniel Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I'm kind of curious. Que always seems to be the lowest in terms of remuneration. How it is that they get people to stay there when they can move and pretty much make double than what they're making in Quebec? Je me souviens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moo Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Yes, but the cost of living in QC is probably 1/3 that of BC. With differences in the cost to buy a house making up the majority of the difference. True, but there are cheaper places to live in Canada than in BC. Cost of living is relatively cheaper on the prairies. I pay for the lifestyle here, but also knowing that I can sell my house and move to the prairies at any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Yes, but the cost of living in QC is probably 1/3 that of BC. With differences in the cost to buy a house making up the majority of the difference. You are dreaming in technicolour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Medward Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 The average price of detatched bungalow in Montreal is around $300,000 http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/803269/average-home-prices-in-montreal-continued-to-climb-in-second-quarter-but-should-stabilize-for-remainder-of-2011 The average price of a detatched house in Vancouver is well over $1,000,000. http://www.laurenandpaul.ca/MarketTrends.ubr I presume that most doctors would like to own a house. Well, that is so much easier in Quebec than BC. With the personal expenses of a BC doctor so much higher than in Quebec, who will have the higher net worth after 10 years? The answer is not as simple as just looking at the fee for service rates in the respective provinces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moo Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 The average price of detatched bungalow in Montreal is around $300,000 http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/803269/average-home-prices-in-montreal-continued-to-climb-in-second-quarter-but-should-stabilize-for-remainder-of-2011 The average price of a detatched house in Vancouver is well over $1,000,000. http://www.laurenandpaul.ca/MarketTrends.ubr I presume that most doctors would like to own a house. Well, that is so much easier in Quebec than BC. With the personal expenses of a BC doctor so much higher than in Quebec, who will have the higher net worth after 10 years? The answer is not as simple as just looking at the fee for service rates in the respective provinces. It depends if my house continues to appreciate in value. A house is an investment. It is part of your capital. You can always sell your house and move to a cheaper place to live. If my house continues to appreciate in value, much mroe so than QC houses, I will have the higher net worth. This may or may not happen; it is a gamble. But a house is not like buying a car. A car depreciates the minute you drive it off the lot. A house won't unless the market crashes, then we're all in trouble. So your point about housing prices is moot, because you will actually have a higher net worth (unless you find a better investment than real estate while living in QC) if your house appreciates at a higher rate in BC than in QC which it has for the past 10-20 years. And you can always move out to Surrey or the burbs, and buy a much cheaper house out there (a nice detached house is about 500-700K out in the burbs, easily affordable for doctors). I pay a set amount each month for my mortgage. A good chunk of that goes to interest, but I also rent out my house, so the interest I pay on my house is actually quite low; it's much cheaper than what I would pay had I rented my house. The rest goes into the house, which is a much better investment than dumping it in the bank or playing the stock market or worse, buying mutual funds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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