How does McMaster get you out in 3 years?

[aaronjw]

a concern I have is that due to the lack of summers, how do Mac students get research in? it's difficult to do research without full-time committment for a few months

 

read the reply before mine. He mentions doing research

[inspiring-curmudgeon]

a concern I have is that due to the lack of summers, how do Mac students get research in? it's difficult to do research without full-time committment for a few months

 

You make it work. People in our class have published multiple papers during the school year. The idea that you need a summer to do research is ridiculous. Clinicians work on research all the time, and they do so while attending to full-time clinical duties. Why shouldn't you be able to do it as a med student?

[holiday1001]

clinicians don't do the research, the grad/ug students do it... how is it ridiculous at all? I'm asking a legitimate question.. but if you say it's possible to do it during the way, then I believe you. does it impact their studies though, doing hours of research plus completing the medical program

[rmorelan]

clinicians don't do the research, the grad/ug students do it... how is it ridiculous at all? I'm asking a legitimate question.. but if you say it's possible to do it during the way, then I believe you. does it impact their studies though, doing hours of research plus completing the medical program

 

It must to some degree - but that just means you have to work harder. That should be expected - you do things faster and there has to be a price somewhere but that doesn't mean it isn't worth paying.

 

At western I had 25 weeks total of time off in years one and two in the summers - like most 4 year schools. In theory a full focussed gunner is going to do things with that you cannot do as easily at McMaster. I mean we also do research papers during the school year as well after all.

 

All I can say is what I was able to do with those summers. I have 12 weeks of clinical electives outside of clerkship specifically in my area of interests. I have 6 posters and 3 papers done with another 2 on the way in time for the fall. I spent 6 weeks in Europe just relaxing. I did significant EC work as well I guess for the school, redid the schools website, built our school's podcast system and did curriculum development for a course. I am just not sure how I would done those things at McMaster - but I wasn't doing them just for CARMS, I did them because they were fun to do and there was a need.

 

How important is that difference if there really even is one? Not easy to answer! Mac students do match to competitive fields - it sounds like you simple have to know you have less overall time and get moving faster. In the end you make it work. I wouldn't take this years one of match rates as the be all and end to things. Schools do have random fluctuation all the time in matching and it is getting overall more competitive for "high end" specialities.

[holiday1001]

Just briefly (I did read a bit), Clinical electives can be taken at bascially, any recognized school, but are they part of your requirements, or are they strictly voluntary?

[rmorelan]

how does one evaluate this from a perspective student POV in deciding where (if given choice) to go?

 

to be honest it really isn't school dependent - it is person dependent along with interests. Some school have great match rates in particular areas vs others, and the main question is what are you willing to do to get the speciality you want? If the "personality" of the school doesn't match yours then you may have some issues as well.

 

What do you want to do? how sure are you really as people do change their minds all the time. Where are your friends/family - the road is long it is important not to get disconnected. What are your ECs and research areas? Does the school you want to go to support those well?

[rmorelan]

Just briefly (I did read a bit), Clinical electives can be taken at bascially, any recognized school, but are they part of your requirements, or are they strictly voluntary?

 

clinical electives is a loaded term I guess We all have clerkship where you have to do things in a systematic way through most things. Then there are electives you chose to do in areas you thinking you want to specialize in - you do have to so these electives in something so they are required but within the rules you have freedom to pick things of interest subject to availability. At many schools those are in 4th year but Mac is a bit more complex. You can also do electives during your summer times which are totally voluntary. In the end you want to get enough exposure so you know what you want to do and get enough time in that area to impress and get your letter of references etc.

[holiday1001]

clinical electives is a loaded term I guess We all have clerkship where you have to do things in a systematic way through most things. Then there are electives you chose to do in areas you thinking you want to specialize in - you do have to so these electives in something so they are required but within the rules you have freedom to pick things of interest subject to availability. At many schools those are in 4th year but Mac is a bit more complex. You can also do electives during your summer times which are totally voluntary. In the end you want to get enough exposure so you know what you want to do and get enough time in that area to impress and get your letter of references etc.

so when you said you did 12 weeks of elective, that was during the summer, so you had 'extra' free time during the year?

[rmorelan]

so when you said you did 12 weeks of elective, that was during the summer, so you had 'extra' free time during the year?

 

well it was completely separate. You can work with a doctor during the summers to build up clinical experience that in no way is connected to the rest of the program.

 

Of course knowing come aspects of medicine much better than the average clerk sure made parts of the year easier I guess. There are always benefits of extra time in any particular area

[medaholic]

I personally enjoyed being in a four year program, but I can see how you can graduate a MD in just three years.

 

Most of fourth year was more or less a victory-lap, picking electives to learn from, putting your CaRMS application together, going on vacation. I remember meeting people on the CaRMS tour from 3 year programs who had yet to complete their core rotations, rotations that I had done a whole year earlier. As for me, I had a month after Carms to relax and spend time doing things outside of school.

 

In terms of clinical knowledge, being a competent physician, blah blah blah, it has more to do with the individual student. More or less, any Canadian grad will come out qualified. Whether you went to a 3 or 4 year school doesn't matter.

 

My advice is if you're a bit younger, and unsure what you want to do, a 4 year program is great that it gives you a bit more time to explore.

[McMasterHopeful]

Lol. start medical school first. Then get to clerkship. Then try to figure out what each specialty entails in 6 week blocks. Then tell me if you stick to your first choice - family medicine - even though you have yet to do a rotation, realize the scope of practice, and what it entails on a day-to-day basis. Any advisor in medical school will raise a brow to students who know what they want to do before they walk in. I don't need to know your background - just key facts (like you have had 0 exposure to your career of choice) to raise my brow. Even if you have done 10 000 years of research in a field of medicine you can't know for sure until you've seen how it's practiced.

 

Good luck on May 15.

 

You seem to have it all figured out. Please, go ahead and enlighten the rest of us on what specialty would be best geared for a remote area? I suppose neurosurgery or radiology.

[The Journey Man]

I really like Mac's approach, and I think that most students who are good in normal medical schools by default end up using an approach of self study using books anyways - I think Mac is just formalizing that process that many good students already do.

 

I really think that 3 years is totally inadequate. And when I was at Mac for elective, it showed in their students. WHen i look at their curriculum, its actually 2 2/3 years. Take out vacation time, thats 2.5 years. That is simply not enough to learn the breadth of medical knowledge, and just get your head around the terminology, concepts etc..

 

Basic science is without a doubt the most important years - the good doctors all have a solid foundation and you start using that understanding without realizing you are, it becomes second nature. I think this is where Mac grads are lacking. Furthermore, i think McMaster lets subpar students slip through the cracks - this is totally unacceptable and perhaps an appropriate way needs to be devised to light a fire under some students butts - all students need to understand and learn and one simple MCQ exam at the end of the 3 years doesnt suffice IMO.

 

4 years of a McMaster based curriculum would be amazing, with more time on pathophysiology and science, and perhaps more time for electives and summers. I think if they did that, then Mac grads would be thought of quite highly rather than the current reputation they have. 1 year makes a huge difference.

[McMasterHopeful]

I really like Mac's approach, and I think that most students who are good in normal medical schools by default end up using an approach of self study using books anyways - I think Mac is just formalizing that process that many good students already do.

 

I really think that 3 years is totally inadequate. And when I was at Mac for elective, it showed in their students. WHen i look at their curriculum, its actually 2 2/3 years. Take out vacation time, thats 2.5 years. That is simply not enough to learn the breadth of medical knowledge, and just get your head around the terminology, concepts etc..

 

Basic science is without a doubt the most important years - the good doctors all have a solid foundation and you start using that understanding without realizing you are, it becomes second nature. I think this is where Mac grads are lacking. Furthermore, i think McMaster lets subpar students slip through the cracks - this is totally unacceptable and perhaps an appropriate way needs to be devised to light a fire under some students butts - all students need to understand and learn and one simple MCQ exam at the end of the 3 years doesnt suffice IMO.

 

4 years of a McMaster based curriculum would be amazing, with more time on pathophysiology and science, and perhaps more time for electives and summers. I think if they did that, then Mac grads would be thought of quite highly rather than the current reputation they have. 1 year makes a huge difference.

 

I am curious to know more about this "reputation" that McMaster students have. Who exactly are the people that think Mac students are unprepared in basic sciences and are, in general, subpar candidates? Students at other universities? Medical staff at hospitals? The general Ontario population? Are you saying that Mac students are not as competent as those from other schools? Does this have anything to do with the 11 students with BA degrees?

 

No, I am not interested in a petty argument. The statements you made are damaging so I am genuinely interested to know how you arrived at these conclusions.

 

If it is simply because you met one idiot on an elective rotation......

[dblu7]

I really like Mac's approach, and I think that most students who are good in normal medical schools by default end up using an approach of self study using books anyways - I think Mac is just formalizing that process that many good students already do.

 

I really think that 3 years is totally inadequate. And when I was at Mac for elective, it showed in their students. WHen i look at their curriculum, its actually 2 2/3 years. Take out vacation time, thats 2.5 years. That is simply not enough to learn the breadth of medical knowledge, and just get your head around the terminology, concepts etc..

 

Basic science is without a doubt the most important years - the good doctors all have a solid foundation and you start using that understanding without realizing you are, it becomes second nature. I think this is where Mac grads are lacking. Furthermore, i think McMaster lets subpar students slip through the cracks - this is totally unacceptable and perhaps an appropriate way needs to be devised to light a fire under some students butts - all students need to understand and learn and one simple MCQ exam at the end of the 3 years doesnt suffice IMO.

 

4 years of a McMaster based curriculum would be amazing, with more time on pathophysiology and science, and perhaps more time for electives and summers. I think if they did that, then Mac grads would be thought of quite highly rather than the current reputation they have. 1 year makes a huge difference.

 

The Journey Man:

I sincerely look forward to the sweeping changes that you undoubtably have planned for Mac's "Sub Par" students, since you clearly have an encompassing knowledge of Mac's curriculum and its shortcomings (that you've gained from your single elective at mac) and clearly know more than anyone about the ideal medical school curriculum.......

 

Having an opinion is different than calling out 600 "sub-par" students that "don't know basic science". I understand that you may have had a bad experience on your rotation, and that's legit. You have clearly looked into this to some degree of depth, which is too bad since you just you broad-brushed Mac school at the end of your post

 

Also, I don't think this was intentional, but reading your post implied that Mac does not have any tests prior to the MCCQE1? Not true.

 

Bottom line is Mac grads match competitively (despite the jump in unmatched this year, mostly due to not backing up, or not willing to back up), score fine on the MCC exams, and go to a pretty sweet school.

 

If you don't like it, don't go, but the CACMS thinks it's fine.

 

 

[insert Conflict of interests slide: I go to Mac.....hahahahah]

[holiday1001]

don't know why some people here feel the need to make superlative judgements on certain schools' curriculums.

[The Journey Man]

The Journey Man:

I sincerely look forward to the sweeping changes that you undoubtably have planned for Mac's "Sub Par" students, since you clearly have an encompassing knowledge of Mac's curriculum and its shortcomings (that you've gained from your single elective at mac) and clearly know more than anyone about the ideal medical school curriculum.......

 

Having an opinion is different than calling out 600 "sub-par" students that "don't know basic science". I understand that you may have had a bad experience on your rotation, and that's legit. You have clearly looked into this to some degree of depth, which is too bad since you just you broad-brushed Mac school at the end of your post

 

Also, I don't think this was intentional, but reading your post implied that Mac does not have any tests prior to the MCCQE1? Not true.

 

Bottom line is Mac grads match competitively (despite the jump in unmatched this year, mostly due to not backing up, or not willing to back up), score fine on the MCC exams, and go to a pretty sweet school.

 

If you don't like it, don't go, but the CACMS thinks it's fine.

 

 

[insert Conflict of interests slide: I go to Mac.....hahahahah]

 

Please re-read my posts. I did not call Mac students "sub-par" as a general statement. I said they let subpar students slip through the cracks. Meaning there are students there who have no business being in clerkship because they know squat but will likely be able to get through. This is not to generalize and say ALL mac students are bad...Quite contrary..there are excellent students I've come in contact with.

 

Just so there is no confusion, I am not calling Mac students "subpar" as a general statement. The motivated students will be fine in the long run at Mac or elsewhere. I still think they need another year to round out their knowledge base because its just really difficult to read during residency and catch up...Its the "subpar" students at Mac I worry about who will graduate in 3 years. I dont think there is enough stress induced to get these FRACTION of students to study. Perhaps its the same at other places, but I didn't get that impression at other schools. My intention is not to say X is better than Mac or whatever. My intention is to comment on how we can the best get doctors trained, whether that be medical school or residency - I just feel Mac current restriction on length and less of focus on basic foundations will end up biting student in the butt later on and perhaps make it more difficult for them to be as good as they can be in medical school...Again the really motivated students will overcome this in residency its just difficult when you work so many hours, difficult not to say it doesnt happen. Just to add, I'm speaking from the perspective of being in Internal Medicine and rotations on CTU. Perhaps if I was going into surgical subspecialty or FP I might think differently

 

Furthermore in as I said in my posts, I said I really like Mac's approach and I think its a much more human way to learn. I think it just needs to be 4 years for the students benefits. More in depth basic science and summers will help out the students in the long run which was my point.

 

No doubt Mac students can match well and do fine on MCCQE. But MCCQE is a minimal competency exam. I think to be good, you need a solid foundation and clear understanding which I found lacking in many students when I was there...Its for the student's benefit, not mine to have an extra year anyways.

 

The reputation is from other residents I've spoken to as well. Like I mentioned, motivated students will be fine. Its the unmotivated ones that give the good ones a mediocre reputation...My point is that in 3 years, you dont have the time even if you suddenly become motivated to catch up to your peers because you're in essentially a sped up curriculum. I don't think you can take the unmatched rate lightly. Many students at other schools don't back up or limit geographic choices.

[dreamsneverdie]

At the end of the day, this is all irrelevant. This is why:

 

Haters gon hate

Potatoes gon potate

Tomatoes gon tomate

Macs gon dominate

 

That is all.

 

And also:

 

 

PS: Just trying to lighten the mood, lol

[deeman101]

How does Mac do a 3 year program? By expecting you to learn the basics yourself. Thats about it.

[dblu7]

How does Mac do a 3 year program? By expecting you to learn the basics yourself. Thats about it.

 

Well put deeman.

 

JourneyMan

 

Thanks for clarifying. I reread your post, and must have missed you mentioning the "FRACTION" medical students falling through the cracks, or how you met many excellent Mac students when you wrote:

 

"I really think that 3 years is totally inadequate. And when I was at Mac for elective, it showed in their students."

 

".....you need a solid foundation and clear understanding which I found lacking in many students when I was there."

 

last time I checked, many=/a fraction........

 

You clarified your point, but the above statement is still kind of a broad statement. It also surprised me to notice that you go to Wayne State (if I'm wrong, I apologize), but you have some pretty strong critiques for the program in general, from someone who is pretty removed from Mac (and Ontario) and only has personal experience in Internal or CTU.

 

Also, with regard to shame-based learning (re: "light a fire under some students butts"), regardless of what people tell you:

- Mac has tests (a bunch): CAEs every 3 weeks, PPI's 3 x a year, OSCEs, etc.

- Mac has lectures (which you may or may not choose to go to)

 

Like deeman said, Mac puts a huge emphasis on self-development. I can only speak for myself, but having summers or the extra year will not help me tremendously (I already have research experience that I continue to take part in, do electives during preclerkship in whatever interests me to help narrow my choices).

You can take as much or as little from the program as you want. One common complaint about Mac is less structured anatomy. What is not commonly mentioned is we have free (as in pretty much any time) access to the anatomy lab, and book time with staff Docs or Pathologists for small-group teaching.

Students who "slip through the cracks" may exist, I personally don't know any, and I find it hard to believe that it would be that common in a program that with ~ 3600 applicants for 203 spots.

[inspiring-curmudgeon]

Well put deeman.

 

JourneyMan

 

Thanks for clarifying. I reread your post, and must have missed you mentioning the "FRACTION" medical students falling through the cracks, or how you met many excellent Mac students when you wrote:

 

"I really think that 3 years is totally inadequate. And when I was at Mac for elective, it showed in their students."

 

".....you need a solid foundation and clear understanding which I found lacking in many students when I was there."

 

last time I checked, many=/a fraction........

 

You clarified your point, but the above statement is still kind of a broad statement. It also surprised me to notice that you go to Wayne State (if I'm wrong, I apologize), but you have some pretty strong critiques for the program in general, from someone who is pretty removed from Mac (and Ontario) and only has personal experience in Internal or CTU.

 

Also, with regard to shame-based learning (re: "light a fire under some students butts"), regardless of what people tell you:

- Mac has tests (a bunch): CAEs every 3 weeks, PPI's 3 x a year, OSCEs, etc.

- Mac has lectures (which you may or may not choose to go to)

 

Like deeman said, Mac puts a huge emphasis on self-development. I can only speak for myself, but having summers or the extra year will not help me tremendously (I already have research experience that I continue to take part in, do electives during preclerkship in whatever interests me to help narrow my choices).

You can take as much or as little from the program as you want. One common complaint about Mac is less structured anatomy. What is not commonly mentioned is we have free (as in pretty much any time) access to the anatomy lab, and book time with staff Docs or Pathologists for small-group teaching.

Students who "slip through the cracks" may exist, I personally don't know any, and I find it hard to believe that it would be that common in a program that with ~ 3600 applicants for 203 spots.

 

I agree with what you're saying, but just a few observations from a Mac Medical student:

1) Those CAEs are a joke. There's no way around that. They test a very superficial understanding of the material, and most students who took life science courses in undergrad could write a CAE with no trouble.

2) The PPI is a great tool, but you only actually face any consequences if you fall in the bottom few percent (2.5, 5? don't remember) in multiple sittings.

3) It's not that people slip through the cracks, it's just that if there were more formal methods of testing, that involved actually learning the finer points of the topics, quite a few people would not pass. People scrape by at ALL medical schools I'm sure, but I just think it's a LOT easier to do so at mac.