heshmonster Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Greetings, I'm currently at a bit of a crossroads and unsure what to do. I've been accepted to a reputable clinical psychology MA/PhD program here in Canada, and am attending this fall. When I was applying, I was 100% sure that clinical psychology was for me. It represented the best of both worlds: in-depth clinical experience and exposure, while also having the ability to conduct psychological research. Only thing is... lately I've been plagued by doubts about the viability of clinical psychology as a career option for me, and have been heavily considering medicine, with the possibility of psychiatry, instead. Question: Would I have a chance of getting into medical school? All throughout my undergrad I was almost single mindedly interested in psychology and philosophy, so my science courses are lacking. I am willing to make them up, but would prefer not to (and pick them up in med school ... i.e., Calgary or McMaster.). Here are my stats: - Honors psychology degree, with first class honors (GPA: 3.84) and thesis from University of Alberta - Over two years research experience in two different labs. - Several poster presentations at conferences, as well as an oral presentation at an undergraduate conference - First author publication in an undergraduate journal, and another third author publication in the next year (being submitted). - Over a year volunteer experience at a psychiatric hospital, but probably only ~50 hours (the patients I was meeting became very ill, and then there was thesis writing ...) - Three glowing letters of reference from tenured psychology faculty (one of whom is a clinician). A potential other one from place of volunteering. Assuming I made up the pre-req sciences (I have biology, but not physics and chem), and wrote the MCAT (and did well), would I stand a chance? Also, what's the protocol for applying to medical school while in a master's program? Would I be better to finish the master's, take the pre-req courses, and then apply? Or try applying to schools while in the master's (there's a select few where I would meet the criteria without taking more pre-reqs)? Any help or advice one may be willing to give would be greatly appreciated. I'm hoping there might be some others in this forum that were in psychology and switched to med/psychiatry later, and can advise. My main goals in becoming a psychiatrist are to be able to prescribe in conjunction with psychotherapy, and to have added job stability that simply isn't there in the clinical field right now. I'm also open to other fields within medicine... Sincerely, Jordan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real Beef Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 You would have a chance for sure. A psych MA/PhD is extremely hard to get into and all your preparations for this (i.e. ECs, publications, presentations) would also make you a strong med applicant not just a successful Psych PhD marticulant. Personally I would go ahead and start the MA/PhD program and apply to med while doing this as the clinical psychology career is a brilliant fall back plan. Of course this route would limit your options for med school because you wouldnt have the prereqs but would be the safest bet for have a solid backup plan. To drop your current program upcoming in the fall would be ridiculous because you would be giving up a sure thing for just a chance at med because although your stats are solid they are not unlike a large percentage of other med applicants. So if you dropped the clinical psych program and pursued med hardcore you might end up not getting into med and losing out on a excellent psch career. That is just my take on your situation as I like to play things a bit safer when you have a good thing going. So my take home message is apply during your masters for sure. Various med schools have different policies on applying during your masters so you will need to research this yourself and/or contact them. Good luck. Beef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutritionRunner Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Beef gave you some excellent advice. Even though you don't have all the pre-reqs to apply for medicine at all the various schools in Canada, you most certainly would be able to apply for the ones that don't have pre-reqs, or that have pre-reqs but they are courses you've already completed. If I were in your shoes I would probably start the Masters and apply for medical school while you are in that program. Don't worry about the pre-reqs - just apply at schools that you currently qualify for. Like Beef said, if you don't get into medical school you have a great fall-back career. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 wow, my twin, im not even kidding, you're like my dopelganger, that's why i initally even thought of med. i know psychiatrists who think like you and me, and imo, they do so much for patients in every way. during med training, many people will think your approach is bs, objectivizing and simplifying psychiatry is a way of protecting perceived expertise, smile and ignore these people… find people who think like you do to mentor you… many people with your orientation tend to see less psychosis, geriatric psych etc. where biologically oriented treatment has to be the number one focus before you can do therapy to cope with illness, stressors etc, because they prefer practicing with patients more likely to benefit from ecclectic approach… lots of borderline, ptsd, adult adhd, addictions, adjustment disorders, various forms of the anxiety disorders, adjustment disorders, depersonalization, dissociative disorders (i've seen severe, just because it's uncommon or misdiagnosed doesn't mean it doesn't exist, trauma, secondary pathology from aspergers, and skills training… often things are much more complex and inter-tangled, and it takes long sessions, for a long time to untangle it all… but meds, nutrition, psychoeducation, and all the rest r also totally helpful, just not as necessary as the ironically named "heavy stuff" if you know psychology you know what im getting at… total respect to the ppl who work with chronic psychosis etc. too, thats an art too if ur good at it... people with "real" bipolar absolutely need to be on proper meds when theyre manic with psychotic features… then therapy anyhoo, residency is where u want to be discerning, people say it's same everywhere, it's not, some schools are colliqioually known as the pill-pushing programs, while others the ecclectic nuts who even incorporate mindfulness and electives in cultural psychiatry in your choosing… basically, you want to do res at u of t… their world view and diversity of therapeutic modalties suit you like a hand and glove… to summarize, nod and smile at the five minute psychs who use psychopharm algorithim charts, find good mentors, do lots of varied electives in psych, an go for u of t psych res. Greetings, I'm currently at a bit of a crossroads and unsure what to do. I've been accepted to a reputable clinical psychology MA/PhD program here in Canada, and am attending this fall. When I was applying, I was 100% sure that clinical psychology was for me. It represented the best of both worlds: in-depth clinical experience and exposure, while also having the ability to conduct psychological research. Only thing is... lately I've been plagued by doubts about the viability of clinical psychology as a career option for me, and have been heavily considering medicine, with the possibility of psychiatry, instead. Question: Would I have a chance of getting into medical school? All throughout my undergrad I was almost single mindedly interested in psychology and philosophy, so my science courses are lacking. I am willing to make them up, but would prefer not to (and pick them up in med school ... i.e., Calgary or McMaster.). Here are my stats: - Honors psychology degree, with first class honors (GPA: 3.84) and thesis from University of Alberta - Over two years research experience in two different labs. - Several poster presentations at conferences, as well as an oral presentation at an undergraduate conference - First author publication in an undergraduate journal, and another third author publication in the next year (being submitted). - Over a year volunteer experience at a psychiatric hospital, but probably only ~50 hours (the patients I was meeting became very ill, and then there was thesis writing ...) - Three glowing letters of reference from tenured psychology faculty (one of whom is a clinician). A potential other one from place of volunteering. Assuming I made up the pre-req sciences (I have biology, but not physics and chem), and wrote the MCAT (and did well), would I stand a chance? Also, what's the protocol for applying to medical school while in a master's program? Would I be better to finish the master's, take the pre-req courses, and then apply? Or try applying to schools while in the master's (there's a select few where I would meet the criteria without taking more pre-reqs)? Any help or advice one may be willing to give would be greatly appreciated. I'm hoping there might be some others in this forum that were in psychology and switched to med/psychiatry later, and can advise. My main goals in becoming a psychiatrist are to be able to prescribe in conjunction with psychotherapy, and to have added job stability that simply isn't there in the clinical field right now. I'm also open to other fields within medicine... Sincerely, Jordan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Beef's approach/advice makes excellence sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 clin psych programs dont like to admit people to ma/phd programs who dont wanna go all the way though… like psychiatry programs r weary of admitting someone who backs with psych, with no psych electives n ton of road oriented experience… no one likes ppl leaving their program after first yr and trying to transfer… also, like 6 yrs ago, u of a wanted u to be done masters.. no ditching out, dont know if still like that though Beef's approach/advice makes excellence sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 clin psych programs dont like to admit people to ma/phd programs who dont wanna go all the way though… like psychiatry programs r weary of admitting someone who backs with psych, with no psych electives n ton of road oriented experience… no one likes ppl leaving their program after first yr and trying to transfer… also, like 6 yrs ago, u of a wanted u to be done masters.. no ditching out, dont know if still like that though It's not just clinical psyc. Psychology program in general wants you to continue till phd. "It is assumed that all students entering the master's program intend to continue in the PhD program" UT Psychology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Greetings, I'm currently at a bit of a crossroads and unsure what to do. I've been accepted to a reputable clinical psychology MA/PhD program here in Canada, and am attending this fall. When I was applying, I was 100% sure that clinical psychology was for me. It represented the best of both worlds: in-depth clinical experience and exposure, while also having the ability to conduct psychological research. Only thing is... lately I've been plagued by doubts about the viability of clinical psychology as a career option for me, and have been heavily considering medicine, with the possibility of psychiatry, instead. Question: Would I have a chance of getting into medical school? All throughout my undergrad I was almost single mindedly interested in psychology and philosophy, so my science courses are lacking. I am willing to make them up, but would prefer not to (and pick them up in med school ... i.e., Calgary or McMaster.). Here are my stats: - Honors psychology degree, with first class honors (GPA: 3.84) and thesis from University of Alberta - Over two years research experience in two different labs. - Several poster presentations at conferences, as well as an oral presentation at an undergraduate conference - First author publication in an undergraduate journal, and another third author publication in the next year (being submitted). - Over a year volunteer experience at a psychiatric hospital, but probably only ~50 hours (the patients I was meeting became very ill, and then there was thesis writing ...) - Three glowing letters of reference from tenured psychology faculty (one of whom is a clinician). A potential other one from place of volunteering. Assuming I made up the pre-req sciences (I have biology, but not physics and chem), and wrote the MCAT (and did well), would I stand a chance? Also, what's the protocol for applying to medical school while in a master's program? Would I be better to finish the master's, take the pre-req courses, and then apply? Or try applying to schools while in the master's (there's a select few where I would meet the criteria without taking more pre-reqs)? Any help or advice one may be willing to give would be greatly appreciated. I'm hoping there might be some others in this forum that were in psychology and switched to med/psychiatry later, and can advise. My main goals in becoming a psychiatrist are to be able to prescribe in conjunction with psychotherapy, and to have added job stability that simply isn't there in the clinical field right now. I'm also open to other fields within medicine... Sincerely, Jordan I am one of the students on the forum with a degree in psych who was considering the clinical route as well. Well I got in so obviously it is possible A lot of the schools have no prereqs - actually most don't now. Your grades on the face of it are in the right range, if you did the mcat this summer you could even apply this coming fall. Otherwise just time it for you get in just after you complete your masters. The schools may intend you to go all the way to phd - and since you are still thinking things over you might but really there is still nothing stopping you from leaving after just the MA. As much as they don't like it it actually happens regularly - and again you might decide to just carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 u of t is hardline because they fund masters students who commit to phds… which is well, let's say not the norm… external funding is the usual expectation for msc's, of course u of t prefers u get external funding, but they will fund if u dont… a promise they dont make to terminal masters students… so they have right to want you to continue... in general research based programs would like you to commit to a phd, but not necessarily there of course… but often you keep correspondance with msc supervisor, maybe do a collaborative with two pi's… you can always just walk out though… because clinical psych has so few admissions it's a lot harder for them to lose people. lol, you're pretty nitpicky, i thought i was… although, you did miss the well guide to doing artsy psychiatry in the age of algorithim and dsm expansion to give the impression of objectifying the public impression of psychiatry after the rosenbaum experiment in the 70s… even though, paradoxically, the more objective criterion are inherently less specific and, while often retaining construct validity on paper by virtue of using all encompassing words like grandiose behaviour in descriptions of bipolar, this means low inter rater reliability and less objectivity because of the wide scope of possible interpretation of a general sentence… this is furthermore complicated by the fact that pharmacotherapy trials often have very strict criterion on these vague words so efficacy of medication a works when we define depression in a way that includes only 10 percent of the population clinicians would diagnose with depression, meaning the drug will be over-prescribed to people it won't be effective for because the clinicians dont have extremely strict inclussion criteria for hyposomnia… pharma also starts off with generalized populations in pilot trials, finds responders characteristics, then follows up with those characteristics as inclussion criteria for the big big study... it's like when people jump on stat significance with no clinical significance or look at say biologically stat significant markers, when there's no psychometric self report, or even observational significance… being nitpicky is good though, sometimes the smallest facts (read my patent post in the other thread im posting in, if i explained the entire 91 pages at face value… you would need 1000, because it's all so intentionally defined to be self consistently truthful, yet perceptively, the discerning reader is more or less getting lied too (adderall has a higher max blood plasma concentration of amphetamine because it's bid dosed, so overlap is higher than vyvanses peak blood plasma, but when you read that you assume theyre only talking about the dextro enantiomer, which is far more dopaminergic and addictive… nope, amphetamine is term for levo or dextro… problem is, adderall xr is 25 percent levoamp… so in fact… the dextroamp blood plasma conc is higher in vyvanse… and the sell insinuated is reduced addictiveness and euphoria (dextro gets you high, mixed salts get you focussed, believe me)… even funnier thing, both are patened by shire, why would they compete, because vyvanse just got on patent till like 2025… and adderall xr is barely staying alive… so gotta maximize income… they even stopped giving out free trials for adderall, and started vyvanse… plus baught out the generic producers of adderall and jacked the price up 500 percent… cause they don't need a patent anymore… only producers…. this is why i'm so *****y about this stuff, why give me a free adhd doc when the meds are allowed to go from 40 to 250 a month… defeats the purpose of free health care, go to free dr, but cant afford prescription… and no one knows the politics, law, pharmacology, organic chemistry, health systems, and has a penant for english… most people specialize skill sets and don't put things together, which is why i ended up sending him a how to survive becoming an artsy psychiatrist in med pm… people don't like it when you can challenge paradigms they feel a sense of intrinsic belief in (it's hard to use a method you know is bs unequivocally, but it's easier to avoid cognitive dissonance for many aspiring psychiatrists since they have an informational knowledgebase which makes it easier to believe things are algorithmic… your in an environment where you learn about pathologies which are easily delineated (think diagnosing a disease like a tumor versus a syndrome like fibromyalgia… furthermore syndrome like parkinsons is diagnosed based on observations, but the characteristics are homogeneous enough that we know tremmors when we see it, so still good inter-rater reliability… now, after growing up in this nice word… you venture into depersonalization disorder… trying to know whether the persons anxiety causes inattention or vice verca… this is a jungle, but you havent learned methods which can delineate things somewhat, because the diversity in knowledgebase is more or less, uncommon) no when he comes along and can explain the phenomenelogical perception of borderline personality disorder… in a way thats clinically useful, but well, no one else has the multi-modal background to see… we'll then they're going to find their paradigm which makes them authorities is threatened because they are immersed in certainty, but someone else has superior insight and there's no clear path to getting that… it's not like read greys anatomy… its like read everything, and have had a gluttony of related experience… and know your somatic medicine in case of somatic causes of psychopathology… you pretty much have to know the whole spectrum… and well, you face a lot of resistance as an extremely ecclectic psych practitioner, because your relative skill, and the fact that your knowledge isn't based on a simple authoritive structure means that the m.d. title loses weight as an authority figure in psychiatry, it's like a union almost, you're guaranteed 180 an hr for therapy… even though realistically, dr. x is god and dr. y is ok… and well, you see why the very reason he wants out of clinical psych and into psychiatry will make his approach hard to sell… there's a reason psychologists can bill 30 or 400 an hour, psychiatry is very similar in terms of level of training not being a good predictor of clinical skill and outcomes… but because it's under the umbrella and the more objective disciplines where people show way less variety in skill base, there's security… ironically, i'd make more money as a psychologist than psychiatrist, but i never knew that 5 years ago, and made the initial decision towards pursuing med and psychiatry for that exact reason, security, and ability to do therapy anyways, lol. It's not just clinical psyc. Psychology program in general wants you to continue till phd. "It is assumed that all students entering the master's program intend to continue in the PhD program" UT Psychology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brainz Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Greetings, Any help or advice one may be willing to give would be greatly appreciated. I'm hoping there might be some others in this forum that were in psychology and switched to med/psychiatry later, and can advise. My main goals in becoming a psychiatrist are to be able to prescribe in conjunction with psychotherapy, and to have added job stability that simply isn't there in the clinical field right now. I'm also open to other fields within medicine... Sincerely, Jordan I'm in clin psych and I'm still undecided about what's going to happen. I joke that I'll be going to med school in 5 years. The job prospects are not too bad (in canada because we don't have 1000 psy. d programs, like in the states) but it is still very competitive. I would like to work in a hospital or at a university when I graduate. The feasibility of that? Who knows... it's still a bit away. However, I have been noticing a steady stream of job postings on CPA (http://www.cpa.ca --> click on public, go down to careers) with a variety of positions available. I am thinking, even if I work the clinical side a bit more, I can eventually get a faculty position or a strong research position (e.g. CAMH). Probably the most important thing in terms of landing an actual position is having publications, and showing that you can get funding as a graduate student and/or awards. I'm not saying you have to go on a pub'ing spree, tacking your name onto everything. But too many grad students come out with 1-2 publications after 6 years... no offence, but unless they were in Science or Nature, that doesn't make you competitive anymore. I had my name on 2 before I even started grad school... Anyways I just wanted to comment and say that it's a common feeling. Will clinical psych's get prescription rights? Possibly in the future. Job prospects are pretty good in my opinion. However, am I still thinking of med school - yes. Will I write the MCAT... yeah probably, but only after the 2015 revision, because I'm not interested in the current format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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