torontohopeful Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 She's so pretty :-) Oh yeah, the cut off words are "Science courses are not a prerequisite...because the program heads think that arts students bring a welcome and fresh perspective. "I think in medicine we do need a broad range of the ways that people see the world" .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt.pepper Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 If you don't need prerequisites or a science background to be a doctor, why don't they accept people straight from HS. I never could grasp this issue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trojjanhorse Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 If you don't need prerequisites or a science background to be a doctor, why don't they accept people straight from HS. I never could grasp this issue... hahaha You're bashing the entire European approach to medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torontohopeful Posted October 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 If you don't need prerequisites or a science background to be a doctor, why don't they accept people straight from HS. I never could grasp this issue... THIS. I mean, she's a beautiful girl, and she dances well - hard, rigorous training every day of your life for five hours is probably harder than doing science - and I'm happy for her, but I don't understand how she got in to McMaster. Isn't it really hard to get in there? And nearly all the students with "A++" gpas in science courses do amazing things outside of their field of study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 THIS. I mean, she's a beautiful girl, and she dances well - hard, rigorous training every day of your life for five hours is probably harder than doing science - and I'm happy for her, but I don't understand how she got in to McMaster. Isn't it really hard to get in there? And nearly all the students with "A++" gpas in science courses do amazing things outside of their field of study. Sure but the admission criteria for that school probably actually favour people with an arts background - 1/3 the school at that school is from VR which generally arts people do better on. They don't check at any point what your ECs are directly, you can get a high GPA (another 1/3) in any program, and CASPER doesn't depend on your degree at all at worst and again at best the introspection an arts degree provides may again even be an asset. and you would be surprised - often high GPA applicants I have run into don't really do that much outside of getting those high marks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralk Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 If you don't need prerequisites or a science background to be a doctor, why don't they accept people straight from HS. I never could grasp this issue... Because a strong work ethic and the ability to learn are far more important than specific subject knowledge. The only thing special about science from a learning perspective is a higher math content and with respect to medicine, even that's mostly just basic arithmetic. Introductory statistics are helpful as well, but many Med students WITH science backgrounds aren't particularly adept at that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 Creativity, initiative, critical thinking, perseverance, developing expertise from endurance, discipline, focus are all very much transferable to other fields where one is highly motivated. For example, becoming a highly trained and successful prima ballerina requires self-discipline, constant self-study. I know such a person, highly artistic, who decided to study law, obtained many scholarships and law degrees, using her artistic talents and high intelligence as a springboard and is now a brilliant lawyer! It is a natural that such a person will achieve success in any profession where he or she is highly motivated, without having the technical base at the beginning the more traditional applicant may have. This is hardly the formation achieved upon h.s. graduation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torontohopeful Posted October 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 Sure but the admission criteria for that school probably actually favour people with an arts background - 1/3 the school at that school is from VR which generally arts people do better on. They don't check at any point what your ECs are directly, you can get a high GPA (another 1/3) in any program, and CASPER doesn't depend on your degree at all at worst and again at best the introspection an arts degree provides may again even be an asset. and you would be surprised - often high GPA applicants I have run into don't really do that much outside of getting those high marks Thanks for this response. Do you know if the adcomes work like this at UofT too - favouring people with arts background? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torontohopeful Posted October 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 Creativity, initiative, critical thinking, perseverance, developing expertise from endurance, discipline, focus are all very much transferable to other fields where one is highly motivated. For example, becoming a highly trained and successful prima ballerina requires self-discipline, constant self-study. I know such a person, highly artistic, who decided to study law, obtained many scholarships and law degrees, using her artistic talents and high intelligence as a springboard and is now a brilliant lawyer! It is a natural that such a person will achieve success in any profession where he or she is highly motivated, without having the technical base at the beginning the more traditional applicant may have. This is hardly the formation achieved upon h.s. graduation. Yup. My cousin is a ballerina, and it is hard, rigorous work. Someone told me once that being a ballerina is the hardest job in the world. Not to mention that it's not only about talent, or how hard you work, or how motivated you are. I was watching a documentary about the Winnepeg Ballet, and this woman was telling this 12 year old girl that she would never be a ballerina because of her bone structure. It's a lot of heartbreak, a lot of hard knocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medhopeful.com Posted October 6, 2012 Report Share Posted October 6, 2012 Thanks for this response. Do you know if the adcomes work like this at UofT too - favouring people with arts background? No, UofT doesn't favour any particular background. Rmorelan isn't saying that McMaster outright looks at an applicant's background education and favours them, but rather the process by which they select candidates often benefits arts students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torontohopeful Posted November 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 No, UofT doesn't favour any particular background. Rmorelan isn't saying that McMaster outright looks at an applicant's background education and favours them, but rather the process by which they select candidates often benefits arts students. thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_nighter05 Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 Because a strong work ethic and the ability to learn are far more important than specific subject knowledge. The only thing special about science from a learning perspective is a higher math content and with respect to medicine, even that's mostly just basic arithmetic. Introductory statistics are helpful as well, but many Med students WITH science backgrounds aren't particularly adept at that either. Being a science student who excels in"basic arithmetic" and has a strong grasp on introductory statistics, I am forced to remind you of the importance of providing statistics and references to support outrageous statements such as the ones you have made. Even the weakest hypotheses still have somewhat of a reasonable explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomSmasher19 Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 The article wasn't about Mac. The author uses Mac to support his thesis that a fine arts degree is still useful. This argument is weak, because Mac does not favour fine arts graduates over other graduates. She still would have been accepted if everything else was the same and she had an engineering degree. The only difference is that if she had an engineering degree and had failed to be accepted, she would not be working at Tim Hortons with the other fine arts majors. TL;DR - fine arts degrees are still useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 No, UofT doesn't favour any particular background. Rmorelan isn't saying that McMaster outright looks at an applicant's background education and favours them, but rather the process by which they select candidates often benefits arts students. Exactly - the process is skewed to selecting people with a certain set of skills and personality traits. I think you can argue that you are more likely to have those skills at least if you have an arts background. The entire point of an arts degree is to learn to become reflective of others arguments and be self reflective of your own beliefs. Powerful assets in McMaster's application system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 The article wasn't about Mac. The author uses Mac to support his thesis that a fine arts degree is still useful. This argument is weak, because Mac does not favour fine arts graduates over other graduates. She still would have been accepted if everything else was the same and she had an engineering degree. The only difference is that if she had an engineering degree and had failed to be accepted, she would not be working at Tim Hortons with the other fine arts majors. TL;DR - fine arts degrees are still useless. Your argument assumes that skills learned by doing an engineering detail are valued equally by the school as the skills learned by doing an arts degree. I would argue actually for McMaster that is likely incorrect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazzle Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 This is excellent. There's no doubt an arts student can become a very good care-giver. And just like science students can be good care-givers as well, there is the possibility that arts students develop equally good scientific skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trojjanhorse Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 This is excellent. There's no doubt an arts student can become a very good care-giver. And just like science students can be good care-givers as well, there is the possibility that arts students develop equally good scientific skills. possibly, yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverCityJill Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 I'm not quite sure why(whether they think it's a good thing or bad thing) people feel that Mac favours arts students. I don't know whether they admit more arts students than other med schools, but overall they consistently admit a majority of students with a science background. Last year, for example, there were 11 arts students out of a class of 203. There were 88 students with straight science degrees and many more from other science degrees like health sciences, biomedical sciences, biomedical engineering, etc. I know they don't have the science pre-reqs that most schools do, and they only look at the VR so maybe that contributes to the perception that they favour arts students. In terms of CASPer and the MMI, I think the attributes these measure (like empathy, moral reasoning, communication skills) really have nothing to do with your academic background. I don't think they favour science students either. I think the majority of people applying to med school just happen to come from science backgrounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broom Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 Exactly - the process is skewed to selecting people with a certain set of skills and personality traits. I think you can argue that you are more likely to have those skills at least if you have an arts background. The entire point of an arts degree is to learn to become reflective of others arguments and be self reflective of your own believes. Powerful assets in McMaster's application system. Right, I can understand that — arts students can reason very well. But what I'm worried about is that medicine relies on reasoning with numbers as well. And I think it's fair to say that a large amount of arts students have no training in math/statistics above the high school level, and many of the ones I know have an aversion to math. Also, i doubt that many of them understand the scientific method (what's a good control, importance of double blind experiments, etc.) Is McMaster really teaching statistics and experimental design to students along with the standard medical curriculum in 3 years? From what I understand, physicians need to keep up with their literature and constantly evaluate new treatments. We need to rely on graduates to be able to do that, and I truly believe that a degree in science really does help you quickly and efficiently go through a journal article, find any flaws, and draw the appropriate conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 Right, I can understand that — arts students can reason very well. But what I'm worried about is that medicine relies on reasoning with numbers as well. And I think it's fair to say that a large amount of arts students have no training in math/statistics above the high school level, and many of the ones I know have an aversion to math. Also, i doubt that many of them understand the scientific method (what's a good control, importance of double blind experiments, etc.) Is McMaster really teaching statistics and experimental design to students along with the standard medical curriculum in 3 years? From what I understand, physicians need to keep up with their literature and constantly evaluate new treatments. We need to rely on graduates to be able to do that, and I truly believe that a degree in science really does help you quickly and efficiently go through a journal article, find any flaws, and draw the appropriate conclusions. You have to be a careful with some of that - it depends on the arts degree. Psychology ( a very common arts degree) at Waterloo for instance has 6 required full courses in statistics or experimental design versus only one course required in the biomedical degree program - I took both degrees and learned WAY more about the scientific method and stats from my arts degree - and I mean way, way more. It honestly was the biggest surprise I had in my education. Also economics (another one my majors) has considerably more math/stats than most other science programs - greatly more actually (we use calculus on a regular bias - most people in science learn it because they have too, we learn it because we use it regularly - math basically is the job). Actually at some schools mathematics is considered an arts degree - simply because the roots of mathematics is actually logic and logical arguing came from philosophy - probably the "original" arts degree. So at a lot of schools arts majors are were the best mathematicians are. Business is an arts degree often as well and there is a lot of math there of course - math that matters. This isn't to say of course that the math shy don't often go into arts. Just that it is a dangerous assumption A lot of math shy people also go into biology - that is why we have calculus and physics for the life sciences - but it would be equally dangerous to say any premed is likely to be bad at math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 Right, I can understand that — arts students can reason very well. But what I'm worried about is that medicine relies on reasoning with numbers as well. And I think it's fair to say that a large amount of arts students have no training in math/statistics above the high school level, and many of the ones I know have an aversion to math. Also, i doubt that many of them understand the scientific method (what's a good control, importance of double blind experiments, etc.) Is McMaster really teaching statistics and experimental design to students along with the standard medical curriculum in 3 years? From what I understand, physicians need to keep up with their literature and constantly evaluate new treatments. We need to rely on graduates to be able to do that, and I truly believe that a degree in science really does help you quickly and efficiently go through a journal article, find any flaws, and draw the appropriate conclusions. Epidemiology is required as it is tested on our end license exam for all medical students. Still you won't learn enough about that in medical school directly to be all that skilled at it at any school. There is simply one course in it. To really learn that stuff you have to push beyond just what is taught to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprinkles Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 You have to be a careful with some of that - it depends on the arts degree. Psychology ( a very common arts degree) at Waterloo for instance has 6 required full courses in statistics or experimental design versus only one course required in the biomedical degree program - I took both degrees and learned WAY more about the scientific method and stats from my arts degree - and I mean way, way more. It honestly was the biggest surprise I had in my education. Also economics (another one my majors) has considerably more math/stats than most other science programs - greatly more actually (we use calculus on a regular bias - most people in science learn it because they have too, we learn it because we use it regularly - math basically is the job). Actually at some schools mathematics is considered an arts degree - simply because the roots of mathematics is actually logic and logical arguing came from philosophy - probably the "original" arts degree. So at a lot of schools arts majors are were the best mathematicians are. Business is an arts degree often as well and there is a lot of math there of course - math that matters. This isn't to say of course that the math shy don't often go into arts. Just that it is a dangerous assumption A lot of math shy people also go into biology - that is why we have calculus and physics for the life sciences - but it would be equally dangerous to say any premed is likely to be bad at math. I agree with rmorelan! Theres lots of 'arts' degrees with math. I won't lie...I ran away from math into my arts degrees (Im doing law and Politics) but I STILL had to face it. We have MANDATORY statistics courses we have to take to get our degree (you know standard deviations, normal curve, chi test etc etc). I had to also take four, yes FOUR classes JUST on how to do research properly and as you put it "quickly and efficiently go through a journal article, find any flaws, and draw the appropriate conclusions." I literally wanted to shoot my brains out after the 4th one but they are required parts of your degree. I mean thats all my degree is about at the end of the day. Reading comprehension (read quick/thoroughly understand views and theories/ be critical/ find underlying themes) + Essay writing (forming new conclusions backed up by evidence from research). Right now I am working on a critical response due tomorrow. We were given a few articles, had to read/assess and be critical of any flaws (point of view/misconception/where conclusions could have been flawed). I have to submit 5 of these for just ONE class + research essay + presentation (all of which require extensive research - I usually go through at LEAST 20+ LONG articles (50+ pages) to write an essay. I obviously cannot do that if I dont know how to read quickly and efficiently. So I think all those skills are learned just as well in an arts degree than Sciences...if not more even. (From my view it seems sciences are more about memorizing things than exploring their meanings etc - though I could be wrong ) I also think that if medical schools NEEDED a science background they would require it. If they NEEDED you to have a mathematical background they would require you to take it as a prerequisite. I mean even some Masters of Arts programs I have been looking to apply to require me to have taken at least one statistics class and a full year economics class, some even Math at the 1000 level. Its because the program needs it. Medicine clearly does not. I sometimes chuckle at myself thinking what it is science majors think we arts majors do all day. Sit around with our fingers in our noses all day eating school glue? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broom Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 I just want to clarify a few things. I started off as an undeclared BA in UW, then transferred to BA in psychology student at York and only recently transferred to a BSc. In the process, I have taken courses in many departments and still take courses in English and philosophy and am still very passionate about those fields. I don't think that arts students eat glue all day. I realize I was unclear, so let me try to clarify. Just because you can get a BA in psychology does not mean it's not a science (at least I consider it a science.) I learned most of what I know about science through psychology. Also, I have never taken a course in economics, but I have some understanding of the field, and from my understanding there is certainly reasoning with numbers involved. I am not saying that no BA student ever deals with math, because that is clearly false. I am, however, saying that there are BA programs that don't require any scientific/mathematical reasoning. This is not an inherent problem, because I think that many of those people are capable of learning this sort of reasoning, they just haven't gone through that. I think the problem is that McMaster is making it just as easy (if not easier) for those fields to go into medicine. rmorelan, I am glad to hear that there is a requirement to have some knowledge of epidemiology. Sprinkles — I think that many (if not most) med schools do have some science requirement. I don't think a doctor needs a BSc per se, but at least some prior exposure to the scientific methods and how scientists arrive at their conclusions. It definitely seems like your program has a stats requirement, but that's not to say that all programs do. Most Canadian medical schools require some courses in biological/physical sciences, which, even at the introductory level, have some labs and bring some appreciation to the scientific method. Even schools that don't require any courses but require the MCAT have their students get some exposure to the scientific method, because the MCAT passages in biological and physical sciences are often written like scientific journal articles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futureGP Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 personally, i think the best univ (or college...as they say down south) degree is an American-style liberal arts degree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 personally, i think the best univ (or college...as they say down south) degree is an American-style liberal arts degree you mean one of those program that forces you to actually think? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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