NewfieMike Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 My MD/PhD plan is unique in that I'm completing all of my graduate work before stepping into a med classroom (4-5 years worth, med admissions is holding my seat for that long). The thing is, since I plan to have the career of an academic physician, running a lab and a practice, I don't want to stop doing basic science work when I start med. Granted, I imagine that once clerkship starts I won't have a choice but to put lab work on the backburner, but what about pre-clerkship? Is it possible to continue to do basic science work? Keep in mind that I will also be a trained PhD at that point and the work I will be doing will all be familiar to me, with most of the bumps worked out. I was thinking of recruiting a keen undergrad to run some things for me when I can't be around. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooty Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 you can do whatever you want with your free time. i heard of people keeping part time jobs. if you're that brilliant, you can get away with full-time studies while running experiments. depending on how competitive your targeted specialty is, you would probably be better off focusing on the MD to 1) build a pristine academic record 2) establish connections via observerships/electives 3) know enough to impress those connections for letters of recommendation. obv you'll need research for competitive specialties too but they're lower in priority in Carms vs. grades LORs and clerkship performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 I can't comment on NewfieMike's situation (which needs the input of those farther along the clinician-scientist pathway than I), but will note that the CaRMS process is likely a bit different for MD/PhDs - the extra qualification sets one apart, especially in fields where research is valued. Like tooty said, there will be some time during preclerkship, though I'm not sure about your 3-year program as most of us did research during the summers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laika Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Technically possible, yes, but not likely. I know a few PhDs in medicine but as far as I know, none of them did significant basic science research during the school year. Some did during summers, but this may not be an option for you judging from your signature. I don't know if killing yourself during med school trying to balance school and research will provide you with any significant benefit later. I'd just focus on learning medicine well. You'll see there's enough to keep you busy. Will having 7 papers instead of 6 for residency apps really make that big a difference? As you know, it takes a good chunk of undivided time to do basic research, and your schedule in med school doesn't lend itself to it. You may have more flexibility in your schedule during residency for research. Some programs will allow you to take a year off for a post-doc during residency. Alternatively, you can do a full research fellowship year after residency. These options could be more useful because they will be (a) closer to you applying for staff position and ( possibly more closely related to your specialty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Laika makes a good point about research opportunities during residency/fellowship. That being said, staying current in one's field is one of the challenges noted by MD-PhDs due to the early timing of the degree relative to the start of one's career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laika Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Agreed, and an interesting statistic is that those who do a PhD 'later' (i.e., in residency vs during med school vs pre-med school) are more likely to actually have a career that incorporates research. I know correlation doesn't prove causation, but it's something to think about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Slightly off-tangent: it stands to reason that people who undertake something as significant as a PhD near the end of their training are doing so because they have serious intentions of pursuing a research-oriented career. Likewise, people who enter medicine after having completed a PhD may be trying to switch to the clinical side of things. MD-PhDs are somewhere in the middle with regards to how research-heavy their careers are - one might speculate about the time gap - people are essentially going to be at a different life stage at the time they start working compared to when they entered the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deeman101 Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 ^ I can flip that around and say its much easier to do the MD part while you're still relatively younger. Doing a PhD is definitely hard work. But make no mistake doing the MD is harder. Don't judge off the preclerks you see kickin' it in the lounge or wherever. Clerkship more than makes up for that. You are more or less dedicating your life to the hospital in clerkship. And you will need every bit of vitality to keep going. IMO whats most ideal is having your gap years after core clerkship but before senior clerkship. That gives you clinical competence from core-clerk but allows you time before doing electives to build a strong CV. I'm trying to progress in my research work that I'm doing on the side with clerkship but maaaaan is it ever slow going. Averaging 6 days a week, 12hrs a day not including the studying I'm trying to put in to avoid looking like a total 'tard....not much time left over for my relatively simple analysis based research at all. And I'm starting gen surg service next week... If you're locked into PhD first, MD second mode (sounds like you are), then start preclerk when your research is more or less finalized and you're ready to write. But make sure you defend and publish before starting clerkship... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bored Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Work as a part time research adsociate for the four years of md. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preppy038 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Work as a part time research adsociate for the four years of md. +1, as a PhD student you can probably sort something out with your PI and work with a flexible schedule during your years of MD (maybe not during clerkship). a typical preclerkship isn't that busy and you'll probably be able to get ~15 hrs of work during the week a lot of BSc's who have done summer research do it, a lot of MSc's do it, why can't a PhD do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Journey Man Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 +1, as a PhD student you can probably sort something out with your PI and work with a flexible schedule during your years of MD (maybe not during clerkship). a typical preclerkship isn't that busy and you'll probably be able to get ~15 hrs of work during the week a lot of BSc's who have done summer research do it, a lot of MSc's do it, why can't a PhD do it? What you can probably do is complete most of your "wet lab" work in 3-4 years, and then write papers and write your thesis on the side during medical school. Pop in here and there to run an experiment or two, but thats about it. Medical school itself will be a more than a full time job. You may have some time to do some wet lab work near the end of medical school. To be honest though, if you want to run a future lab and be a clinician, you're going to have a very big gap between your PhD training and post-doc training because clinical training will priority #1 to your future residency program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewfieMike Posted November 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 I think I'm just going to try and do it. I have a pretty sweet situation going with the lab I'm currently in, and I imagine my boss will let me keep things going (at a relatively slower pace) after I'm finished. It's not like I cost him anything. I'll have to put the brakes on for clerkship and the first part of residency but that's to be expected). I had a chat with a neurosurgeon from the UK who also runs a basic science lab, mainly asking him "how do you do this?" He said no one is ever going to recommend you do it, so you just have to do it anyways. He seems pretty happy. Productive, has a wife and 2 small kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osteon Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 I think you will have no problem fitting in time for research - I certainly plan on it and in fact will be prioritizing it over many other things. Even in clerkship, I would argue that you could still use that time to write papers given that you'd have 6 years of experience writing them by that point, so it won't take long. Plus with a PhD, I'm hoping to take on a bit of a supervisory role during the MD part so that undergrads/MSc students can do the work for me and then just tack on my name to the papers so that might be something to consider as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost__in__space Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 While I miss research at the moment.... I enjoy having a break to just focus on my MD studies. There's definitely time to do research during your MD if you want to though, I know a few of my classmates pop in the lab after classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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