Dumb question

[youngdad]

Do I have to put down all my premed education? I figure I do. I switched schools a couple of times so one of my transcripts has like 3 courses on it and another has like 10. It assume I have to put them all down and just check "no degree earned" for those other two schools. However it doesn't say "please put all institutions attended" like it did for my med school app. It looks amateur with those two other schools on there.

They all led to my undergraduate degree at a third school. Can I just put down the school I got my degree from?

Not trying to be dishonest or hide anything I just think a more streamlined application is easier to read.

[rmorelan]

Do I have to put down all my premed education? I figure I do. I switched schools a couple of times so one of my transcripts has like 3 courses on it and another has like 10. It assume I have to put them all down and just check "no degree earned" for those other two schools. However it doesn't say "please put all institutions attended" like it did for my med school app. It looks amateur with those two other schools on there.

They all led to my undergraduate degree at a third school. Can I just put down the school I got my degree from?

Not trying to be dishonest or hide anything I just think a more streamlined application is easier to read.

 

Kind of interesting questions - I mean a CV and a resume as well doesn't force you to put everything you ever did on it. I am selective with my ECs, work history, publications, awards.... Why not degrees?

 

That being said if a school asks for your UG transcript (you were interested in rads(?) where quite a few of them did ask for that) I wouldn't want a bunch of unexplained transfer credits to appear on that either

[youngdad]

Kind of interesting questions - I mean a CV and a resume as well doesn't force you to put everything you ever did on it. I am selective with my ECs, work history, publications, awards.... Why not degrees?

 

That being said if a school asks for your UG transcript (you were interested in rads(?) where quite a few of them did ask for that) I wouldn't want a bunch of unexplained transfer credits to appear on that either

 

You have publications you don't put on your application? Whats wrong? Too many? You are ballin' out of control rmorelan!

 

I have changed my tune and will not be applying to rads. A topic for a separate discussion. None of the programs I am applying to in family practice ask for UG transcripts nor does the CaRMS site say to put down all post secondary education. Do you still think I should? It was a long time ago and it will be a pain to dig up the details of the dates I attended (summer school, semesters off, religion courses that have weird credits).

[Mandibular]

You have publications you don't put on your application? Whats wrong? Too many? You are ballin' out of control rmorelan!

 

I have changed my tune and will not be applying to rads. A topic for a separate discussion. None of the programs I am applying to in family practice ask for UG transcripts nor does the CaRMS site say to put down all post secondary education. Do you still think I should? It was a long time ago and it will be a pain to dig up the details of the dates I attended (summer school, semesters off, religion courses that have weird credits).

 

 

How come youngdad? what pushed you away from it?

[youngdad]

How come youngdad? what pushed you away from it?

 

Not so much away from rads as toward family.

I love diagnostics and procedures and anatomy and technology.

But I love preventative health care, patient contact, and general medicine skills more.

 

Also, on the whole I have found primary care physicians to be a much happier bunch than radiologists. Thats where I fit.

 

As an aside, radiology electives sucked on the whole. I knew up front that the electives are never great and should not be taken to represent the career. But come on. Make it look like you put a little effort into it. These are in large teaching hospitals. How hard would it be to make some teaching files that students could try their hand at and then review with staff? Or 20 minutes of an approach or some random anatomy pimping. Something! One program should be particularly ashamed. (No I won't say which one)

[Mandibular]

Not so much away from rads as toward family.

I love diagnostics and procedures and anatomy and technology.

But I love preventative health care, patient contact, and general medicine skills more.

 

Also, on the whole I have found primary care physicians to be a much happier bunch than radiologists. Thats where I fit.

 

As an aside, radiology electives sucked on the whole. I knew up front that the electives are never great and should not be taken to represent the career. But come on. Make it look like you put a little effort into it. These are in large teaching hospitals. How hard would it be to make some teaching files that students could try their hand at and then review with staff? Or 20 minutes of an approach or some random anatomy pimping. Something! One program should be particularly ashamed. (No I won't say which one)

 

 

 

HAHA

 

yeah, rads rotation could seem endless if there's no stimulation. We had about 200-250 premade cases with classical signs on imaging, and then got pimped on them! but all of this by the residents, the attendings dont give a f*** about students

[A-Stark]

As an aside, radiology electives sucked on the whole. I knew up front that the electives are never great and should not be taken to represent the career. But come on. Make it look like you put a little effort into it. These are in large teaching hospitals. How hard would it be to make some teaching files that students could try their hand at and then review with staff? Or 20 minutes of an approach or some random anatomy pimping. Something! One program should be particularly ashamed. (No I won't say which one)

 

Not that I've ever been interested in rads, but the elective I did in third year amounted to sitting in the dark for a few hours each day in silence. The only exceptions were an afternoon spent with one of the neuro guys and a morning with an R2 in chest CT. Not that I learned much.

[Lactic Folly]

In my opinion, if a service is to accept a medical student or resident, it has also accepted an obligation to teach them something.

Agree. More programs should have a curriculum for students to work through so they come away having achieved some concrete objectives.

 

Granted, teaching usually results in a lower income, especially in high volume fee-for-service things (think derm, radiology, McMedicine FM).

 

Money isn't the main issue in radiology teaching: sick people get scanned at the same rate regardless of whether there are students in the department, so the volume of studies is the same.

 

Rather, it's distraction and time. Unless you go about your work as if no one is sitting beside you (which should not happen but unfortunately does at times), part of your attention is split between interpreting the study at hand and explaining what you are doing. The distraction increases the chance that you will forget to include something that you had seen in the report, or say something incorrectly, with potentially serious consequences.

 

Time is also an issue as turnaround times are tracked, with pressure from ER in particular to dictate studies ASAP, who themselves are under great pressure to increased throughput of patients and have their times tracked. Residents are often in a position to do more teaching as they are not responsible for the brunt of the workload (and themselves slow the staff down during the day).

 

I just thought about this now: is the reason most of the med school core teaching is in low-volume specialties like ward medicine, inpatient general surgery and psych because those would take a lower income hit on a student being there than other, more high volume specialties? The idea that the "core rotations" are the most applicable to learning medicine on a general level is in my opinion an antiquated and incorrect vestige of the ancient report by Flexner. The non-mandatory high-volume rotations are no less relevant to medicine than the classic core rotations, so do financial reasons come into play regarding the maintenance of this status quo?

 

Time in the preclerkship curriculum is a hotly contested resource - every field (nutrition, geriatrics, etc.) is pushing for more hours.

 

As for clerkship rotations, it is my impression that students are more integral to certain services - at least, it always seemed important that there be trainees assigned to OR, clinic, and call, and there would be scrambling if everyone was gone for teaching.

 

That is not to say that students should ever feel like a burden on other electives rotations. A lot of valid points have been raised above, and there is certainly room for improvement in how many radiology electives are structured.

 

Would suggest that students stay flexible, make the most of the best available opportunity at any one time (shadowing techs, attending rounds, going through teaching files, etc.), and focus on their objectives, which IMO for those heading into generalist careers should emphasize understanding the patient experience and limitations of / indications for various studies more than interpretation. Also, provide feedback on activities you would like to see more of, and if keen, help set up the curriculum you'd want

[youngdad]

Agree. More programs should have a curriculum for students to work through so they come away having achieved some concrete objectives.

 

 

 

Money isn't the main issue in radiology teaching: sick people get scanned at the same rate regardless of whether there are students in the department, so the volume of studies is the same.

 

Rather, it's distraction and time. Unless you go about your work as if no one is sitting beside you (which should not happen but unfortunately does at times), part of your attention is split between interpreting the study at hand and explaining what you are doing. The distraction increases the chance that you will forget to include something that you had seen in the report, or say something incorrectly, with potentially serious consequences.

 

Time is also an issue as turnaround times are tracked, with pressure from ER in particular to dictate studies ASAP, who themselves are under great pressure to increased throughput of patients and have their times tracked. Residents are often in a position to do more teaching as they are not responsible for the brunt of the workload (and themselves slow the staff down during the day).

 

 

 

Time in the preclerkship curriculum is a hotly contested resource - every field (nutrition, geriatrics, etc.) is pushing for more hours.

 

As for clerkship rotations, it is my impression that students are more integral to certain services - at least, it always seemed important that there be trainees assigned to OR, clinic, and call, and there would be scrambling if everyone was gone for teaching.

 

That is not to say that students should ever feel like a burden on other electives rotations. A lot of valid points have been raised above, and there is certainly room for improvement in how many radiology electives are structured.

 

Would suggest that students stay flexible, make the most of the best available opportunity at any one time (shadowing techs, attending rounds, going through teaching files, etc.), and focus on their objectives, which IMO for those heading into generalist careers should emphasize understanding the patient experience and limitations of / indications for various studies more than interpretation. Also, provide feedback on activities you would like to see more of, and if keen, help set up the curriculum you'd want

 

Agreed on the attitude RE making the most of what you are doing right at that moment. But its pretty tough as a med student to show a radiology department how teaching should be done. "Here's a suggestion for you Dr. Bigstaff: Why don't you talk to me more and suck less at teaching?"

 

It really should not be that hard to generate a list of "must sees" and get every radiologist in the dept to contribute a few cases over the course of a year until the list is complete. Students can try their hand at them all week. They can partner with other students for advice. They can look stuff up. This would take no time from the staff. Then at the end of the day or week a radiologist can sacrifice a bit of reading time and go through the cases stressing approaches. Not hard. A resident would need to take it on. Might be an interesting project for the research component of a rads residency.

[Lactic Folly]

You're right, that's why I said the issue was more of time than income, as the amount billed will be similar, but one will either be coming in early / staying late, or someone else will be picking up the slack to allow their colleagues to teach more.

[rmorelan]

You're right, that's why I said the issue was more of time than income, as the amount billed will be similar, but one will either be coming in early / staying late, or someone else will be picking up the slack to allow their colleagues to teach more.

 

On elective I at least where I went usually the rads simply left at the same time each day etc or a chunk of their job is just from a common pool (plain films for instance) - so if you don't do them because you are slowed down someone else does. There is a really effective loss of income in those cases when a medical student is there.

 

They never come in early as it seems no radiologist ever actually looks ahead at their schedule enough to know they are getting a medical student that day At the 4 schools I have been at so far it as always been you just show up and they accept you are supposed to be there. Even if they did that wouldn't help as the imaging hasn't been taken yet so you cannot possibly view it.

[Lactic Folly]

I'm not sure if you guys are implying (given your focus on decreased income) that each radiologist directly receives the fees from each study they read. Although such arrangements do exist, AFAIK most groups I have seen pool their billings, and work out how to divide them amongst each other - thus there is more focus on distribution of work. Also, I meant coming in early the next day to catch up.

[tooty]

youngdad, can you pm me that school that really sucked for you?

 

i have a guess in mind.