How Many Weeks of Electives at your School?

[MansionMD]

Tell us what school and how elective weeks are organized there!

[igeorgex]

We get 10-12 weeks before carms (depending on if you take vacation) then 6-8 weeks post carms. Also 7 weeks before clerkship (honestly not that helpful).

[kinemed]

We get 10 weeks pre-CaRMS and 8 weeks post-CaRMS, with 4 weeks of selectives (2 internal subspecialty, 2 surgery) post-CaRMS. Timing of the selectives depends on which group you're in.

[A-Stark]

Dal gets 2 weeks in third year, 10 weeks pre-CaRMS, 8 weeks post-CaRMS, with 3 weeks of Care of the Elderly somewhere in the post-CaRMS period. That's changing, however, as the third year elective may disappear and the pre-CaRMS time might be reduced too. These are very regrettable and the product of a UGME that is completely deaf to the concerns around these changes.

[mavrik13]

Dal gets 2 weeks in third year, 10 weeks pre-CaRMS, 8 weeks post-CaRMS, with 3 weeks of Care of the Elderly somewhere in the post-CaRMS period. That's changing, however, as the third year elective may disappear and the pre-CaRMS time might be reduced too. These are very regrettable and the product of a UGME that is completely deaf to the concerns around these changes.

 

3rd year electives at Dal have been removed, and I believe the Care of the Elderly block can occur pre-CaRMS.

[ellorie]

We get 16 weeks, all pre-CaRMS, at Western. Basically the whole fall of 4th year.

[A-Stark]

3rd year electives at Dal have been removed, and I believe the Care of the Elderly block can occur pre-CaRMS.

 

There was some equivocation about the third year elective by Simon Field lately. This is a bad thing, but pales in comparison to removing time for pre-CaRMS electives.

 

Care of the Elderly is being integrated into the Internal Medicine block so it will no longer be in fourth year at all.

[rmorelan]

We get 16 weeks, all pre-CaRMS, at Western. Basically the whole fall of 4th year.

 

True! Although we don't don't actually get to do all of them prior to CARMS being due - only the first 5 of 8 are completely clear - you would extremely luck to get a LOR from the 6th

[mavrik13]

There was some equivocation about the third year elective by Simon Field lately. This is a bad thing, but pales in comparison to removing time for pre-CaRMS electives.

 

Care of the Elderly is being integrated into the Internal Medicine block so it will no longer be in fourth year at all.

 

You're correct - but there is 'something' (I can't find the presentation we had where we were given this info) that is taking up elective time pre- or post-CaRMS, depending on what track you're in.

 

edit: actually, it is called care of the elderly. http://undergraduate.medicine.dal.ca/curriculum/documents/PhaseIIClerkshipSchedule-Classof2014.pdf

[thebouque]

Hehe, when I was in clerkship, we had 5 weeks of general internal med CTU, 1 week of outpatient GIM, and 6 weeks of geriatrics (divided between 3 wks of geriatrics CTU, 2 weeks consults/long term, 1 week palliative care), everything in 1st year of clerkship. It was a bit much...

[A-Stark]

You're correct - but there is 'something' (I can't find the presentation we had where we were given this info) that is taking up elective time pre- or post-CaRMS, depending on what track you're in.

 

edit: actually, it is called care of the elderly. http://undergraduate.medicine.dal.ca/curriculum/documents/PhaseIIClerkshipSchedule-Classof2014.pdf

 

Yeah, that won't exist anymore after next year. Instead you'll have the "PIERS" unit adding common curriculum time throughout the clerkship years for... something. There are some good ideas in there but it's not well thought out, and the effect on elective time is not really justifiable.

 

@thebouque: That's a LOT of IM and geriatrics especially. Dal does three 4-week blocks (CTU/MTU, wards, consults/clinics) plus 3 weeks of geriatrics which can be done with a family doc or internist geriatrician in a variety of settings.

[tberry3]

We get 10-12 weeks before carms (depending on if you take vacation) then 6-8 weeks post carms. Also 7 weeks before clerkship (honestly not that helpful).

 

Out of curiosity, can you elaborate a bit on why you didn't find the summer electives helpful? Personally I'm really looking forward to them as an opportunity to narrow down what I'm interested in so I can choose my clerkship electives more effectively.

[schmitty]

True! Although we don't don't actually get to do all of them prior to CARMS being due - only the first 5 of 8 are completely clear - you would extremely luck to get a LOR from the 6th

 

Seems to be similar at U of T from what I have read - the 14 week period from sept-dec in 4th year is all electives...

 

Seems like that 5-8 weeks as you said is a pretty small chunk of time to decide on your future! Definitely need to choose wisely...

[rmorelan]

Seems to be similar at U of T from what I have read - the 14 week period from sept-dec in 4th year is all electives...

 

Seems like that 5-8 weeks as you said is a pretty small chunk of time to decide on your future! Definitely need to choose wisely...

 

additional comments

 

TO switched to follow Western's system a bit ago - it is one of those interesting problems of tragedy of the commons - it is optimal for reference letters etc to complete all of clerkship prior to electives as you know more, you carry yourself better, and you have certainly in particular covered whatever you are now hoping to go into. It would be ideal in theory for everyone to do clerkship, then do all electives and then apply to CARMS (although the timing of carms applications forces that to be not possible. That was and is basically western's system and some argued it was an advantaged so other schools began to switch to match it. I have to say I certainly noticed a difference between earlier elective students from other schools and our students on electives - I mean you would have to expect that - and if you are on an away elective you are there to impress.

 

Add to this that many if not most school's clerkship is 12 months and starts in Sept of third year, thus electives would be then the start of 4th year.

 

The trouble is what happens when too many schools do that. That puts enormous pressure on the elective system in that fall. Coupled with the overall rise in the number of students and it gets hard to get things done sometimes in the fall. Now the pressure on those magic 5 say starting elective 2 week blocks is pretty huge. It can get a bit messy.

 

One of those examples where if one school did it they may have an advantage but if every school did it then we would have a serious problem

[schmitty]

Good point... Puts extra pressure on those of us who want competitive specialties as well.

 

Speaking of which, did you happen to get the PM I sent you a while back rmorelan?

[ACHQ]

You're right.

 

From what I have heard from students (Clerks) at other schools that don't have all their electives in 4th (final) year is that they would have preferred having it the way Western and UofT do it.

 

additional comments

 

TO switched to follow Western's system a bit ago - it is one of those interesting problems of tragedy of the commons - it is optimal for reference letters etc to complete all of clerkship prior to electives as you know more, you carry yourself better, and you have certainly in particular covered whatever you are now hoping to go into. It would be ideal in theory for everyone to do clerkship, then do all electives and then apply to CARMS (although the timing of carms applications forces that to be not possible. That was and is basically western's system and some argued it was an advantaged so other schools began to switch to match it. I have to say I certainly noticed a difference between earlier elective students from other schools and our students on electives - I mean you would have to expect that - and if you are on an away elective you are there to impress.

 

Add to this that many if not most school's clerkship is 12 months and starts in Sept of third year, thus electives would be then the start of 4th year.

 

The trouble is what happens when too many schools do that. That puts enormous pressure on the elective system in that fall. Coupled with the overall rise in the number of students and it gets hard to get things done sometimes in the fall. Now the pressure on those magic 5 say starting elective 2 week blocks is pretty huge. It can get a bit messy.

 

One of those examples where if one school did it they may have an advantage but if every school did it then we would have a serious problem

[rmorelan]

You're right.

 

From what I have heard from students (Clerks) at other schools that don't have all their electives in 4th (final) year is that they would have preferred having it the way Western and UofT do it.

 

well post carms applications electives are pretty useless - post match day they are completely useless. Of course what ever is going on post Feb that has nothing to do with the exam is pretty much an irritation.

 

ha - we get one or two more switching to the fall and the entire system will grind to a halt

[Lactic Folly]

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have some elective time earlier in clerkship, as long as you have enough of a chunk near the end once you've decided on your overall CaRMS direction.

 

Reasons:

 

- You can have an opportunity to explore specialties not covered in the regular clerkship rota earlier on, when it is less difficult to alter your course should you have an epiphany or change of heart.

 

- It will be easier to schedule electives outside of the fall pre-CaRMS crush, when people resort to such tactics as double-booking to ensure a slot.

 

- At your elective, it is less likely that the other students will be composed solely of those applying to the same field in the same year, with all the attendant tension and jostling for prime placements that involves.

 

- Depending on the program, they may be looking primarily for fit/personal qualities in electives students, or just interest in that location that they can check off when reviewing applications.

 

Similar to concerns about doing a core clerkship rotation earlier or later in the year, preceptors are often able to adjust expectations for level of training when evaluating students.

 

Someone with a good preclerkship base of knowledge should still be able to shine - if worried about practical experience, this can be compensated for with summer electives to some extent.

[cardiomegaly]

Granted there has been some minor changes at U of A, when I went through we had 5 weeks in Year 3 and 15 weeks in Year 4. Of those, you were required to complete minimum of 3 weeks in third year and 10 in fourth year (option for vacation). That doesn't include our between 2/3 year early electives.

 

My 15 weeks in fourth year were split up 9 pre carms deadline, 3 weeks pre interview and 3 post (aka vacation).

 

I would argue for a small portion of elective time to be allotted for third year to help students rule in and out specialties that are not core rotations. Shadowing does not give you a good indication of whether or not you'll truly enjoy living the life of that specialty. Plus it helps alleviate the elective crunch time come fall. U of A starts fourth year electives in August and I found that was a golden time because a lot of schools were still busy doing mandatory stuff.

 

But too early is never good either.... I always felt bad for the U of C clerks in Feburary and March when they came 2 weeks into clerkship looking like deer in the headlights. You've gotta have some degree of clinical experience before you go off trying to get reference letters.