Anybody else concerned about the flood of IMGs?

[hamham]

Maybe we should tighten up licensing exams and then allow anyone to apply who can pass the exams within a certain percentile. If CMGs think their so sh!t hot then they can compete in an open competition to prove that they are.

 

As someone who consumes and has paid into the system, I care that I'm being treated by the best person for the job. Not some whiny self-entitled CMG. That's more fair to Canadians as a whole than some aspiring wannabe med student.

 

This one... I agree! I'm willing to accept that challenge... though any of my perceived self-entitlement stems from that fact that I worked hard to get to where I am today (lots of blood/sweat/tears/perseverance... those who personally know me would understand), unlike some who went to international schools that require only sub-standard GPA or MCAT or ECs.

[hamham]

You're incorrect about the first 2 checkpoints of practicing medicine in Canada, since there's an established system in place to train graduates of both Canadian and international medical schools. There are also many international residency programs which are recognized in Canada, so you don't have to train locally.

 

Yes, but receiving training in Canada will ensure that one is of a certain standard (CMA or some Board will ensure this, through accreditation/review every 5-8 years or so). The disparity in training standards in overseas program is far too great, and in all honesty, you should know that some of them are not up to Canadian standards.

 

Also I'm not sure what 'losing faith' means exactly, or what you were trying to get at by saying that. If you meant losing faith in the admissions process, then that is definitely true. I have tremendous respect for all those who have the perseverance to keep applying year after year. The unfortunate reality is there are far too many qualified applicants applying every year, so getting in does require a bit of either luck if it's on your first try, or determination to keep 'rolling the dice' until you get a spot.

 

That's why I'm saying IMGs lack the determination to keep 'rolling the dice until you(they) get a spot

 

I also think you should in turn have respect for IMGs who train abroad at great financial risk for a very small chance at returning home to practice medicine. I suppose there's less risk for people who come from wealthy families that foot the bill for their kids, but if you want to look at my line of credit statements, you'll see what camp I fall into for that issue. Either way, if you're a resident in Canada you have worked hard to get to that spot at some point along the line.

 

Respect must be earned. I have no respect for those deliberately go out of North America in a last ditch attempt to be a doc. I think it's important to be realistic. If you are not qualified enough to get into medicine in Canada and you don't have the 'determination to keep rolling the dice', then maybe medicine in Canada is not the right career for you, and one should learn to call it quits. If you really want to help people/remain in the healthcare industry, there are other jobs, besides medicine, like nurses, physio, social worker etc (all of them are integral to the Canadian healthcare system). Taking such a huge, unwarranted risk is most foolish, and certainly unworthy of respect.

 

That said, we all know how hard it is for IMG to get Canadian residency, so I do respect those who make it back against all odds. Nonetheless, the stigma associated with being an IMG will always be there (I believe there are many outside who have a less-than-favourable 1st impression of IMGs, even though IMGs may be better docs than CMGs), and it's something you will have to live with for the rest of your life. So premeds, pls think twice before you go abroad.

[BoyInTheBubble]

Spoken like a true premed!

[Mourning Cloak]

Let's all just go ahead and not feed the troll...

 

Good advice that nobody ever listens to.

[A-Stark]

Respect must be earned.

 

Indeed. I trust you understand that goes both ways. Or else you'll be in for an interesting start to clerkship.

[sprinkles]

though there are merits to both sides of the argument I think the way Canada treats IMGs is unfair and really 'unprofessional'.

 

I have heard of multiple fully qualified doctors who have been screwed over by our system. Example: a coworker was telling me that his Uncle who is a fully licensed ER doctor in the UK, making good money with seniority, was APPROACHED by the government, asking him to come work in Canada and promising an expediated process. Since half his family had emigrated to Canada he decide to take them up on it. He sells everything he has there, packs up, and moves his whole family here. Only part the government failed to mention is all the different tests he would have to write. He was told since he was fully accredited (like he was apparently a big deal and does conferences around the world and stuff) that he would just skip all that and only have to complete a 1 year supervision thing before he could move into a high level position. Two years later he still cant work so he is planning on moving back to the UK. I think that is super unfair, and yet its not the first time I have heard of stories like this.

 

I understand about having a set of standardized health tests that everyone has to pass because you do not want unqualified doctors working. thats fine. But the expectations need to be realistic. I highly doubt that half the CMGs can pass those tests. And I VERY HIGHLY DOUBT that an accomplished Canadian doctor practicing for like 20 years could pass some of these exams.

 

When you have doctors that are trained in well recognized institutions and who have passed adequate accreditation in other countries, and, MOST IMPORTANTLY Canada ACTUALLY WANTS/NEEDS them....then there has to be a little give and take. I think for the most competitive fields we shouldnt accept people from outside. But when we LACK space for certain fields....then why not?

 

As for me, If I had a choice, from all of the doctors I have come into contact with in my life, I would probably choose an IMG to be my doctor over a CMG....they usually seem to be more knowledgeable

[peace2012]

though there are merits to both sides of the argument I think the way Canada treats IMGs is unfair and really 'unprofessional'.

 

I have heard of multiple fully qualified doctors who have been screwed over by our system. Example: a coworker was telling me that his Uncle who is a fully licensed ER doctor in the UK, making good money with seniority, was APPROACHED by the government, asking him to come work in Canada and promising an expediated process. Since half his family had emigrated to Canada he decide to take them up on it. He sells everything he has there, packs up, and moves his whole family here. Only part the government failed to mention is all the different tests he would have to write. He was told since he was fully accredited (like he was apparently a big deal and does conferences around the world and stuff) that he would just skip all that and only have to complete a 1 year supervision thing before he could move into a high level position. Two years later he still cant work so he is planning on moving back to the UK. I think that is super unfair, and yet its not the first time I have heard of stories like this.

 

I understand about having a set of standardized health tests that everyone has to pass because you do not want unqualified doctors working. thats fine. But the expectations need to be realistic. I highly doubt that half the CMGs can pass those tests. And I VERY HIGHLY DOUBT that an accomplished Canadian doctor practicing for like 20 years could pass some of these exams.

 

When you have doctors that are trained in well recognized institutions and who have passed adequate accreditation in other countries, and, MOST IMPORTANTLY Canada ACTUALLY WANTS/NEEDS them....then there has to be a little give and take. I think for the most competitive fields we shouldnt accept people from outside. But when we LACK space for certain fields....then why not?

 

As for me, If I had a choice, from all of the doctors I have come into contact with in my life, I would probably choose an IMG to be my doctor over a CMG....they usually seem to be more knowledgeable

 

Even though I am only a premed, but I know someone who got into a Caribbean school right after HIGH SCHOOL. I don't want to seem mean, but he had trouble getting into canadian undergrad life science programs. After his education, he is allowed to practice medicine in several US states and even Canada. You listed a very good UK doctor and I am sure he is very competent. But there are a lot of bad IMGs out there and if this person I know is practicing medicine in Canada, I actually think it would be a disservice to all the hard working people I know and the patients! Also I doubt IMG doctors are more knowledgable than CMG, since canadian schools are very good from an international standpoint and people who get in are very top notch unlike some international schools.

[CdnatWayne]

Even though I am only a premed, but I know someone who got into a Caribbean school right after HIGH SCHOOL. I don't want to seem mean, but he had trouble getting into canadian undergrad life science programs. After his education, he is allowed to practice medicine in several US states and even Canada. You listed a very good UK doctor and I am sure he is very competent. But there are a lot of bad IMGs out there and if this person I know is practicing medicine in Canada, I actually think it would be a disservice to all the hard working people I know and the patients! Also I doubt IMG doctors are more knowledgable than CMG, since canadian schools are very good from an international standpoint and people who get in are very top notch unlike some international schools.

 

Why is it a disservice? He clearly passed all the relevant courses in medical school, completed clerkship, passed USMLE Step 1, 2, 3, passed the licensing exam(s) of his chosen field. If he's practicing in Canada, clearly passed the Canadian board exams as well.

 

I would say his successful completion of all that is required to become a licensed physician in the US and/or Canada is more indicative of his 'smarts' rather his high school performance and trouble getting into an undergraduate program.

[peace2012]

Why is it a disservice? He clearly passed all the relevant courses in medical school, completed clerkship, passed USMLE Step 1, 2, 3, passed the licensing exam(s) of his chosen field. If he's practicing in Canada, clearly passed the Canadian board exams as well.

 

I would say his successful completion of all that is required to become a licensed physician in the US and/or Canada is more indicative of his 'smarts' rather his high school performance and trouble getting into an undergraduate program.

 

But it would be immensely unfair to people who went to undergrad then med and to people who worked very hard to achieve a good cGPA and MCAT and ECs! On top of all that, I don't believe many CMGs fail the licensing exams/board exams and exams should never be an indicator of competence. (A very good example of this would be TOEFL, where passing the exam does not mean you are proficient at English at all). I am sure a lot of people from China, India, Europe, etc... pass the exams through immensely focused studying, but does it mean they are at the same level of CMGs at all? Btw, I think a lot of IMGs are very competent and should practice in Canada, but I am just saying my particular example of how people can easily fall through the cracks through alternative pathways

[leviathan]

But it would be immensely unfair to people who went to undergrad then med and to people who worked very hard to achieve a good cGPA and MCAT and ECs!

Who cares? They could take the same option too, if they wanted to accept the major risks and stigma associated with it. People can take various paths to practicing medicine. You need to stop worrying about what is or isn't 'fair'.

[hamham]

Indeed. I trust you understand that goes both ways. Or else you'll be in for an interesting start to clerkship.

 

Certainly. In fact, I am fully aware I'm just a new med student with an opinion (I believe everyone is entitled to his/her own opinions, and he/she is free to disagree w/ me), and I have lots to learn. My personal philosophy is you either strive to be the best doc or you don't do med at all. Pple who have worked w/ me know I'm no quitter. Now that I'm given the opportunity, I will work hard to show that I'm worthy, and with the help of my prof/team-mates, I believe I will succeed. Should I fail, even I won't have respect for myself, let alone others.

[Der Kaiser]

But it would be immensely unfair to people who went to undergrad then med and to people who worked very hard to achieve a good cGPA and MCAT and ECs!

 

It can't just be about "fairness". If Canadian med school admissions were fair we would not have the admissions blackhole that is certain parts of Ontario. Many students who go to the US or Ireland or the Caribbean are actually pretty decent students who happened to have been born in the GTA, Waterloo, or Kingston and are given almost no geographical consideration at any school. The competitiveness of Ontario is ridiculous if you start comparing our admissions standards to the states (and the states is no ballpark for med admissions). Had these same individuals been born in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia, etc. they would have been accepted to a Canadian med school. It was never a "fair" competition to begin with. So when some of these students go abroad for a medical education and take a huge gamble in doing so I applaud them if they can make it back.

[mountainaxe46]

I've read this entire thread, and still can't find any evidence for the OPs original comment.

[sprinkles]

It can't just be about "fairness". If Canadian med school admissions were fair we would not have the admissions blackhole that is certain parts of Ontario. Many students who go to the US or Ireland or the Caribbean are actually pretty decent students who happened to have been born in the GTA, Waterloo, or Kingston and are given almost no geographical consideration at any school. The competitiveness of Ontario is ridiculous if you start comparing our admissions standards to the states (and the states is no ballpark for med admissions). Had these same individuals been born in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia, etc. they would have been accepted to a Canadian med school. It was never a "fair" competition to begin with. So when some of these students go abroad for a medical education and take a huge gamble in doing so I applaud them if they can make it back.

 

Very true! There are some students with 4.0 GPAs that dont get in Canada but then go to Harvard....nobody would say harvard is for 'stupid people who couldnt get in to Canada' would they?

 

Honestly medschool in Canada seems to be a mix of talent and pure dumb luck.

 

And Peace 2012, you REALLY shouldnt judge someone by their high school record. I know it can be frustrating to see that 'lazy kid' be a practicing doctor, while you the hard working one only just got into medical school. But keep in mind....who you are in high school has no correlation with how you do after it...good or bad... Maybe he thrived in Uni and not in high school (happens to lots of students!) either way he cant be as stupid as you think of him as being if he was able to pass those tests. I graduated from a highschool 5 years ago and my school gave awards to those students who were in top 1% of graduating year. I was one of them along with about 7 or 8 other students. One of them (who took advanced math/calc etc courses and got A+s) ended up dropping out of Uni because she couldnt handle it and now works at Dollarama. Another ended up not being able to handle her BA in Science and switching to a visual arts degree and now works at an arts store. Another one of them got early acceptance in to medical school in 3rd year uni. And one of the 'stupids' of the class....who everyone thought couldnt put 2 and 2 together....completed a bachelor in aerospace engineering with high honors (he said he didnt find high school challenging enough so he never applied himself). Like it just goes to show that high school performance = means nothing.

 

If you think its him slipping through the cracks (which I doubt...its a very intensive process) then there are just as many who slip through in our system.

 

 

I think at the end of the day there are good CMG and bad CMG and good IMG and bad IMG.

 

I think the best solution would be to have EVERYONE test the SAME EXACT tests and examinations, and then rank the results and give preference to CMGs where possible and give the remaining ones to IMGs. Simple as that I know it may not seem fair (what if I did poorly on the exam cause of a b or c? What if I test poorly? what if etc etc etc --) yah well life aint fair

[peace2012]

Very true! There are some students with 4.0 GPAs that dont get in Canada but then go to Harvard....nobody would say harvard is for 'stupid people who couldnt get in to Canada' would they?

 

Honestly medschool in Canada seems to be a mix of talent and pure dumb luck.

 

And Peace 2012, you REALLY shouldnt judge someone by their high school record. I know it can be frustrating to see that 'lazy kid' be a practicing doctor, while you the hard working one only just got into medical school. But keep in mind....who you are in high school has no correlation with how you do after it...good or bad... Maybe he thrived in Uni and not in high school (happens to lots of students!) either way he cant be as stupid as you think of him as being if he was able to pass those tests. I graduated from a highschool 5 years ago and my school gave awards to those students who were in top 1% of graduating year. I was one of them along with about 7 or 8 other students. One of them (who took advanced math/calc etc courses and got A+s) ended up dropping out of Uni because she couldnt handle it and now works at Dollarama. Another ended up not being able to handle her BA in Science and switching to a visual arts degree and now works at an arts store. Another one of them got early acceptance in to medical school in 3rd year uni. And one of the 'stupids' of the class....who everyone thought couldnt put 2 and 2 together....completed a bachelor in aerospace engineering with high honors (he said he didnt find high school challenging enough so he never applied himself). Like it just goes to show that high school performance = means nothing.

 

If you think its him slipping through the cracks (which I doubt...its a very intensive process) then there are just as many who slip through in our system.

 

 

I think at the end of the day there are good CMG and bad CMG and good IMG and bad IMG.

 

I think the best solution would be to have EVERYONE test the SAME EXACT tests and examinations, and then rank the results and give preference to CMGs where possible and give the remaining ones to IMGs. Simple as that I know it may not seem fair (what if I did poorly on the exam cause of a b or c? What if I test poorly? what if etc etc etc --) yah well life aint fair

 

Sorry I was so judgemental, I guess I should've looked at it from a broader perspective. I guess I was somewhat irrational since I felt a little jealous that he got into medical school in Caribbean without going through undergrad hell. But I definitely believe that many IMGs are good and deserve to be practising in Canada. I also do agree with you 100% that high school marks have poor correlation in university from personal experience. I live in GTA too so I have to compete very hard for those sacred Ontario spots too, I really did not intend to be offensive to those who were unlucky and studied really hard in undergrad and then studied medicine abroad.

[mountainaxe46]

Sorry I was so judgemental, I guess I should've looked at it from a broader perspective. I guess I was somewhat irrational since I felt a little jealous that he got into medical school in Caribbean without going through undergrad hell. But I definitely believe that many IMGs are good and deserve to be practising in Canada. I also do agree with you 100% that high school marks have poor correlation in university from personal experience. I live in GTA too so I have to compete very hard for those sacred Ontario spots too, I really did not intend to be offensive to those who were unlucky and studied really hard in undergrad and then studied medicine abroad.

 

Isn't going straight into meds how most of the world does it?

[future_doc]

Sorry I was so judgemental, I guess I should've looked at it from a broader perspective. I guess I was somewhat irrational since I felt a little jealous that he got into medical school in Caribbean without going through undergrad hell. But I definitely believe that many IMGs are good and deserve to be practising in Canada. I also do agree with you 100% that high school marks have poor correlation in university from personal experience. I live in GTA too so I have to compete very hard for those sacred Ontario spots too, I really did not intend to be offensive to those who were unlucky and studied really hard in undergrad and then studied medicine abroad.

 

A Canadian friend of mine who is also a Barbadian citizen went to high school in Ontario, was a top student in academics, has all kinds of volunteering and ECs, and in a highly competitive process, she was accepted into medical school in Barbados, a five year program from h.s. or A Levels. She is the top student in her class and now doing clinical rotations.

 

Her option was to do undergrad in Canada and then apply here, joining the lottery. I have no idea whether she will practice in the Caribbean or in Canada, but she had options not available to us and it all worked out for her.

[penguin92]

Sorry I was so judgemental, I guess I should've looked at it from a broader perspective. I guess I was somewhat irrational since I felt a little jealous that he got into medical school in Caribbean without going through undergrad hell. But I definitely believe that many IMGs are good and deserve to be practising in Canada. I also do agree with you 100% that high school marks have poor correlation in university from personal experience. I live in GTA too so I have to compete very hard for those sacred Ontario spots too, I really did not intend to be offensive to those who were unlucky and studied really hard in undergrad and then studied medicine abroad.

 

medicine in the Caribbean is equally just as hell. High fail out rates means these students don't have the same security canadian med students have and must fight for those grades just like undergrads here do

[mountainaxe46]

I had a similar debate with someone about IMGs the other day. He was claiming how their educational standards are substandard and lack the same "Canadian quality".

 

Of course, when I asked him about our numerous undergrad professors who were UK doctors (not MD, but MBBS), he didn't include them.

 

Unwittingly, we often stereotype IMGs as people from poorer nations. There's judgment for doctors from the Middle East, South America, India or China. But Europe is somehow exempt. it's inexplicable.

[lalab]

 

Unwittingly, we often stereotype IMGs as people from poorer nations. There's judgment for doctors from the Middle East, South America, India or China. But Europe is somehow exempt. it's inexplicable.

 

It's explicable: Europe is the colonizer of this fair continent. Of course it makes sense they are somehow held in a higher light. Western medicine originated there.

[Der Kaiser]

I had a similar debate with someone about IMGs the other day. He was claiming how their educational standards are substandard and lack the same "Canadian quality".

 

Of course, when I asked him about our numerous undergrad professors who were UK doctors (not MD, but MBBS), he didn't include them.

 

Unwittingly, we often stereotype IMGs as people from poorer nations. There's judgment for doctors from the Middle East, South America, India or China. But Europe is somehow exempt. it's inexplicable.

 

Arguably the medical schools in commonwealth countries (Britain) are more similar to our medical schools than those of the United States. One would assume similar educational standards (and cultures). Also, similar patterns of illness in Europe so the medical students from European nations are taught to look out for typically western illnesses. It is actually very explicable.

[mountainaxe46]

Arguably the medical schools in commonwealth countries (Britain) are more similar to our medical schools than those of the United States. One would assume similar educational standards (and cultures). Also, similar patterns of illness in Europe so the medical students from European nations are taught to look out for typically western illnesses. It is actually very explicable.

 

India's education system is largely based off the UK -- why do they have to carry the stigma but not the UK.

 

The point in my thread is that criticizing IMGs should be universal. It should be that individuals trained outside of the Canada+USA educational system should all be "unacceptable" .. Excuses can't be be made because of history or "cultural" ties.

[lalab]

India's education system is largely based off the UK -- why do they have to carry the stigma but not the UK.

 

The point in my thread is that criticizing IMGs should be universal. It should be that individuals trained outside of the Canada+USA educational system should all be "unacceptable" .. Excuses can't be be made because of history or "cultural" ties.

 

Cultural hedgemony of the West meets medical practice huh. Someone should really write an article on that.

[Guest guy30]

I think the best solution would be to have EVERYONE test the SAME EXACT tests and examinations, and then rank the results and give preference to CMGs where possible and give the remaining ones to IMGs. Simple as that I know it may not seem fair (what if I did poorly on the exam cause of a b or c? What if I test poorly? what if etc etc etc --) yah well life aint fair

 

Funny, that is basically what it is right now. Everyone tests to the same standards on licensing exams... and CMGs are preferenced over IMGs in the residency process unless the IMG is already qualified in a reciprocal agreement from a jurisdiction seen to have the same training standards such as with current agreements in the US, UK, or AUS etc. at the moment.

[uwodesperate]

 

interesting watch...