communication skills

[Guest m]

I know, I know, this is the sort of second-guessing you all discourage, but this is just a burning question I need answered.

 

How articulate need one be in an interview? Obviously, everyone's nervous, and this will impair performance, but adcomms are still looking for communciation skills.

 

I'm just dwelling on my nervous mouth in my interview. I know I had one moment where I was babbling, and needed to start over in my response, and I know I said UMM a lot!! But I know I gave some great responses and was generally confident and an otherwise good communicator. Right now I'm assuming I didn't get in because of my communication skills.

 

For an average applicant, can somewhat nervous communication totally break the interview, or only slightly pull down an otherwise decent score? Anyone know? How important is it to be an eloquent, well-articulated speaker in the interview?

[Guest IF]

Hi, I'll share with you my interview at Western last year ( I was accepted but couldn't get deferral for completing my masters because I was in first year masters at the time). My interview was o.k. inititally, but after I gave an answer to one of the questions, my interviewer said she couldn't understand anything I said and asked me to give another example for the answer, this made me feel completely stupid and basically, bombed the interview. For the next question, my answer was ummmmm....like.....But the good thing was i was really really prepared and gave amazing answers for the questions. Still i felt terrible, went home and cried like crazy, thought i would end up in the bottom 10 percentile of all interviewed candidates. But i ended up getting accepted, with ranking of 32 out of ~400 interiewed. So you never know....

[Guest m]

Wow, good job IF.

 

I take it they're willing to overlook some youthful inabilities to articulate perfectly for a great mind, which provides me with some hope. Regardless, I'm certainly going to try to develop my communication skills over the next few months, whether I get in or not.

 

How about in your case, IF? Do you tend to be a nervous interviewee (and have you developed yourself since) or did you just have a bad day that spiraled after one or two minor errors?

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Hi IF - I don't mean to accuse you of falsifying your story (I had a very similar experience - I was worried I might have bombed the interview, but ended up getting in. . .) but hor did you find out your 'ranking' for acceptance? I can't remember Western ever telling me my ranking for acceptance, and considering the philosophy of the administration here, it doesn't seem to be the kind of info they'd give out. Also, it kind of surprises me that they wouldn't offer deferral - I've heard they do give deferrals for admission in the case of completing grad degrees.

[Guest IF]

I thought I should have gotten a deferral too, that was why I was really upset after finding out about this. Anyways, basically, when I was told that no automatic deferrals were given, I totally panicked, made it into a big deal with the admission officer, but good thing was she was totally sympathetic and nice about it. I had to write a letter to formally request a deferral, it was given to a committee and considered (took about 2 wks) and then rejected. I found out my ranking through much complaining about my situation with the admission officer and telling her I was extremely worried about not getting in the next year (actually this year), and that's when she told me. I really don't know about this being unethical in any way, and I certainly hope it will be left as it is without trouble for anyone

[Guest IF]

I'm not usually nervous, but I'd have to say that no one can do a perfect interview, there's always something you wish you could have said, or said differently, or something that you shouldn't have said. Even as I was accepted last year (I also got 80% ranking for Mac personal interview), I still can't confidently say that I can interview well and get in no problem. This is because every interview is so so different. I think the best thing to do is to prepare as much as possible, for all types of questions with all types of examples in mind, that way, you don't have to think too hard for answers and then can appropriately respond to other things, ie eye contact, smile, emphasis in your answers, etc. What I mean is we can only think so hard at one time, and we are not usually our smartest selves during interviews due to the stress, so it's better to what thinking we can beforehand.

 

But really, I don't know, whether what I say is valid depends on how I do this year, and at this point, I've given up on trying to judge how I did. The interview I was happiest of and ended up with worst ranking is Ottawa. But everytime I try to determine what is the difference bet my UWO and Ottawa interviews, ie, what makes an interview successful, I don't have any answers.

 

Good Luck

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Yeah, I totally know what you mean. After getting in, part of me was tempted to take a year off to find out what the "real world" was like. I've never taken a year off at any point, and as a result have no idea what it means to work for a living. . . also, sometimes I fear I have no perspective on what a good salary is as I've never had a 'real' salary at all - just summer jobs and part-time work. Unfortunately, deferral was totally not an option for me (no good excuse - I honestly thought completing grad work was an acceptable reason for a deferral! Western is notoriously tough for getting a deferral. . .) and having been through the hell of applying once, I didn't want to take my chances a second time. . . So when the acceptance came, my 'choice' to do med school this year seemed like no choice at all! I'm pretty happy here, but part of me wishes I'd taken that year to have some fun, relax and get some out-of-school perspective.

 

Good luck on your next application cycle.

[Guest PeterHill0501]

UWOMED2005,

 

I appreciate the fact that you've never taken time off to see what "a real salary" is like. Let me tell you...I've been working for 12 years since graduating with a Master's degree...I've had the big salaries working in both the private and public sectors...I will be leaving a $100K+ salary if I get accepted to med school. I've had great jobs (I think about as good as they get)...interesting...balances...but there is also a significant amount of stress and other negatives associated with working in typical private and public sector jobs, especially in the high tech industry. I'll actually post the rest of my thoughts tomorrow as I have to go out for supper now, however, let me tell you it is worth going right through as when you are finished you will have a satisfying, secure job...and I'm not talking about money either...my wife is a physician and I have always drawn equal or near equal salary for a lot less hours of work...plus benefits...the real benefits of medicine are perhaps more subtle. Anyway, I'd love to have a more in-depth discussion on this topic...I'll talk to you tomorrow...

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi guys,

 

A question regarding medical school deferrals (and this should probably be moved to a different discussion area, but I don't want to lose the above progress of thoughts): I know that many medical schools will allow deferral for a year to complete a graduate degree if you're already in the process of working on that degree, but does anyone have any info as to whether a school will permit a deferral in order for you to START and complete a Masters in a medical area, i.e., one that would be patently beneficial to a career as a physician?

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest medwant2b]

Hi Kirsteen:

 

There is a MD in my lab that is doing a MSc as a part of their residency. Based on what I know from them... I'd work on getting into med school. You can do grad work later.

 

The advantages of doing grad work later are:

1. Depending on where you do the residency -- you can do a MSc as a part of the residency and have one of the two MSc years count toward the residency.

 

2. The MSc is more current if you do it later.

If you do your MSc first, then 3 or 4 years of med school plus 2..3..4+ years of residency, it may not be worth very much when you get back to researching, as it will be a few years old.

 

Advantage of doing grad work earlier:

1. You'll be a bit more competitive when competing for the residency spots.

 

Cheers!

[Guest Kirsteen]

Excellent points there, medwant2b--thanks!

 

Kirsteen

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Yes - that's why I'm ecstatic to be in medical school and decided not to reenter the applicant pool. In the long run I definitely made the right choice. And in the short run as well, but I'd be lying if I said medical school was easy and there have been times I've been hunched over my neurophysiology textbooks and wondered if it really is worth it. . . I always come back to the same answer, yes it DEFINITELY is.

 

Also, I really have no perspective on what a salary is! Having always been in school, I really have no bearing on what it means to survive on a salary of $20,000, $30,000. . . $60,000. . . $100,000, etc. The only perspective I have is knowing what my parents made. Doing research into what the various specialties make is somewhat of an abstraction for me. ie Anaesthiologists make $180,000 (or whatever, I'm not entirely sure once you consider overhead). Is that a lot? I just don't know - I don't have the experience to judge! (Plus there's the whole student debt and interest payment thing to throw in the equation.)

 

All I'm really saying is that I can see an advantage to taking the year off, to have obtained some perspective.

 

Good Luck and hopefully I'll see you on the wards.

[Guest PeterHill0501]

UWOMED2005,

 

For the past 11 years or so I've averaged about 100K per year...I have a home within two blocks of the Civic Hospital (which I'm still paying for)...I have a ski boat (which I'm still paying for), two kids (which I'll pay for for the rest of my life )...my wife and I go out for supper to nicer restaurants at least 3-4 times a month (e.g., Jean Sebastian Barr in Hull, Les Fougiers)...we love to drink significantly above average wine and martinis regularly...we go out to concerts and the theatre regularly...we entertain lots, as well...all in all a pretty comfortable existance (damn...I'm going to have to give up a lot of that in Medical school, aren't I?). By the time I finish paying taxes I generally take home about 60% of that 100K.

 

I can give you an idea of what my wife's salary as a family physician is...she graduated from Ottawa, after residency, with about 100K debt...is averaging about $200K-250K of billing per year...she max's out her RRSP contributions every month...pays her billing agent...accountant...overhead...and still has plenty left over. If you calculate all the hours she put in during medical school and residency, however, we figured out she is making about $6 an hour for the next 4 or 5 years! A salary you make as a family physician (forgetting about specialties or sub-specialties for a moment) is quite good. However, I would argue that salary is far from the most important parts of being a physician. Having been laid off from an 11 year career with Nortel last summer and scrambling to find employment with a fairly focussed expertise (i.e., perception/human factors/user needs analysis/research/statistics) is not much fun. After my wife finished residency she had scads of calls from docs wanting her to come do locums for them...she had to turn away about 70-80% of the people who called her. There aren't many professions in which you have employers calling you! Furthermore, unless you're incompetent you'll always have a job...and at the time when there is no need for physicians (i.e., nuclear death of the planet, for example) there really won't be much point in having a job anyway!

 

At times I had to provide significant support to my wife through the last bit of her residency as there were many instances when she was ready to quit and work at McDonalds...however, I think when she saw what I went through being out of work...the anxiety...the stress of looking for employment...and the competition in the private sector...it helped her realize that she had to finish and that ultimately things would be much better for her there than trying to learn the sometimes awful ways of the private sector. Not to sound "holier than thou" or anything, but the private sector is no cup of tea...just like anything else there are ups and downs, however, it is quite competitive and political in any large corporation and the smaller ones are even worse. Now that I'm in the public sector (Statistics Canada), it's different than the private sector but it also comes with its annoying characteristics as well. I love my job but I'm looking forward to having a sole proprietorship after finishing residency!

 

I'd love to chat more about this...if you ever need support or just want to shoot the bull drop me a line. My email address is available through my profile.

 

Best regards,

 

Peter

[Guest Ian Wong]

Heh! You just made my day!

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> Furthermore, unless you're incompetent you'll always have a job...and at the time when there is no need for physicians (i.e., nuclear death of the planet, for example) there really won't be much point in having a job anyway!<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> I'd just also add that medicine is generally extremely portable and from my perspective, something that I'm glad to be experienced in just for my own personal knowledge and benefit.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest PeterHill0501]

Ian,

 

You make an excellent point. The portability and flexibility are extremely valuable. I've actually been extremely lucky in that my degree has also been incredibly flexible and portable as well. Having a background in biological sciences combined with experimental psychology has enabled me to have a wide range of experiences: managing pharmacokinetic, efficacy and bioavailability trials for the pharmaceutical industry; conducting research in cataract surgery; conducting basic vision research in the area of low vision and providing clinical services to low vision patients; managing a human-centered product design group at Nortel Networks; creating a sole-proprietorship which, as an example, through research guided the development of a new corporate image for the National Museum of Science and Technology (i.e., their new logo); working as a manager at Statistics Canada conducting national research for Health Canada.

 

Your point about loving what you do and, extrapolating a bit, constantly being challenged to keep current and learn new things is also one of the best aspects of medicine for me as well. I actually really like my current profession, however, just as it is difficult to be in a relationship with someone when you're truly in love with someone else...so are the days of my life...I feel as if I've been deprived of a career in medicine for too long. In the past I kept telling myself there were too many obstacles...but I have finally realized that it is my true love...and nothing will prevent me from achieving it.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Thanks for your posts. . . in fact your thoughts echo many of mine. Other than the fact you're a DOCTOR and the fact you're "helping people" (yes - that line is overused but nothing else puts it so succinctly) I found the career security much more attractive than the $$ associated with medicine.

 

I saw my own father go through the "getting screwed by BCE" (Nortel is a BCE company, right?) experience myself. . . he was with Bell Canada (in Ottawa, nonetheless!) for 27 years only to get screwed by the whole Stentor fiasco in the early 90s. In fact, throughout my childhood he was always stressed out about getting let go as he felt there was a lot of mismanagement at both Bell and Nortel. It made me realize how important job security is. . . and medicine definitely provides that.

 

Also, thanks for sharing your wife's experiences with me. . . I'm really attracted to family medicine but have been worried that if I choose family I'd spend the rest of my life paying off that friggin' student loan I'm now accumulating (currently $25,000 and I'm not even 1/4 of the way to residency!

[Guest PeterHill0501]

UWOMED2005,

 

Yes, Nortel is a BCE company. It's a small world, isn't it? The stress you talk about your father experiencing is really undescribable. His insight was right on. I was fortunate only to have to live with the stress for about 11 years. It's funny, during my interview at U of O, the Dean of Admissions asked me how I was going to handle the stress and amount of work required for med school. I briefly thought about laughing...but decided it wasn't in my best interest! I explained that while I haven't been in school for a while, I've been constantly in a position of having to learn quite complex subjects like optical switching, hybrid fibre-coax networking, mechanical engineering, Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA) wireless basestation and network management...blah...blah...

Although medical school will undoubtedly be one of the most difficult things I'll do, if not the most difficult things...I perceive it as just that...one more thing to conquer.

 

Having watched my wife go through medical school and residency, I must admit the stress is incredible...but it does only last 6 years or so...I endured prolonged stress for more than a decade at Nortel/Bell-Northern Research.

 

Just to reassure you with respect to paying off the horrendous debt...my wife has easily managed to pay back about 1/3 of it within the last 6 months...her first 6 months of practice as a family physician. She's been doing locums...walk-ins...sexual health centre down in the market...there seems to be lots of opportunity. I think the best advice she ever gave me with respect to the debt of medical school was to get used to it...if you worry constantly about it you'll drive yourself mad...and there isn't anything you can do about it anyway unless, of course, you're independently wealthy!

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Once again, thanks for the advice! One of my greatest problems this first year of meds has been that times I have been tempted to think too much about the debt I'm accumulating and 'penny-pinch' as a result. . . never seems to work - it just keeps mounting! Surprising, eh. . . considering I'm making zilch and paying for everything on that debt.

 

Wow - your experience do remind me somewhat of my Dad's, though he was still a generation or so before you. One last question though - were you at Moodie drive or the Merivale campus of Nortel? I know a couple of people at each. . . though I'm not exactly ecstatic to post their names on the web, so I might e-mail you if you respond.

[Guest PeterHill0501]

I was at Moodie Drive. Feel free to e-mail me...due to my position at Nortel I know lots of people there...used to know lots of people there...are there still people there? I know a computer support guy there...he says he can't even get toner for the printers...quite sad really.