Tuition and Frustration

[Guest bad hombre]

Hey guys,

 

I just got a nice booklet and letter from Washington University in St. Louis inviting me to apply to their program because of my mcat scores. When was the last time a Canadian school recruited people in this fashion? Never I guess. Back when i was applying for undergrad, an invitation to apply was a virtual acceptance for U.S. schools.

 

It's so frustrating when you KNOW you could get into an allopathic school in the states and become doctor, yet you're unable to because of the 200 g's you need upfront in order to attend. that's about everything that's keeping me back. I wouldn't mind leaving Canada if I was allowed to come back eventually. Living in the states and attending a top notch school would be pretty sweet...

 

I'm sure many people experience similar frustrations when they're unable to attend university here because of financial reasons. Further, many premeds have an unfair advantage over others if they are able to take summer months off from work in order to vounteer overseas and study hardcore for the MCATs. I believe that the phenomenon of med students on average coming from particularly priviledged backgrounds is a problem which should be addressed. Don't believe it? the average family income for UWO med students is around 140 g's. that's WAY above the average of 50-70.

 

Peace.

[Guest Biochem10]

I hear you bad hombre and it's only getting worse with deregulated tuition. I am in a similar situation to you, applying only to Canadian universities because of my financial situation. I come from a single-parent family with a really low family income and it's only due to OSAP and the support of my large extended family that I've been fortunate enough to get my undergraduate degree. I'm applying to med school in Canada knowing that I'll be able to finance my education with yet another loan, but it's frustrating to see the tuition has soared. I feel that people from my background are being less encouraged to become doctors because of the financial burden they will face later on. (I'm sure everyone faces that burden, but some to a higher extent) Not only that, but the application process is not cheap and a student who is already in serious debt is less likely to apply to a lot of schools or any schools at all. When you consider $175 US for the MCAT, $500 for OMSAS plus application fees for schools outside ontario, you can easily run into $1000 of application fees and that's with no guarantees of actually getting in and becoming a doctor. I think that there should be more subsidies for students living in government housing, on welfare or in debt. I have looked into some bursaries, but they all have really tight restrictions and I haven't found one that covers application costs. I'm just happy that I have some family support, I can imagine there are some people out there who aren't as priviledged.

[Guest peachy]

But there are generous student loans such as OSAP to help people out, aren't there? Between scholarships, bursaries, loans, summer jobs and working part time during the year, I don't think that money should be a _barrier_ for anyone (although I recognize that there are people who may decide that it's not worth it because they'd like to have the money sooner).

[Guest Biochem10]

OSAP is not a never ending fountain of money and certainly, things can happen throughout the year to change a person's financial status (ie. parents losing a job). Working part-time is not practical for some people especially those with a demanding course load or those working in labs for experience. I'm not saying that poor students applying to medicine should be pitied, rather, I think that the tuition hikes are astronomical and if they continue with their current trends a lot of poor students will be weeded out...not because they want money quicker, but they need money for rent, groceries and to pay back undergraduate loans. (money, that for most people, is borrowed from parents) I don't mind having a huge amount of debt because I know that I'm going to love what I do and that my debt will be aleviated one day, but I couldn't imagine what people in worse situations would do.

[Guest strider2004]

OSAP is currently capped at about $11,000/yr. That's less than tuition at all med schools in Ontario. We still have to pay about $10,000 out of our own pockets for rent, expenses, etc. A typical med student accumulates about $25k of debt each year. It's also difficult because we don't necessarily have our summers off to do work. UWO did all the research a few years ago on the effect of rising tuition on the demographics of students applying to medicine. The increasing family income seen in Ontario applicants in NOT seen in other schools in Canada where the tuition is relatively stable.

 

Even in medical school, students realize that they'll graduate with $100,000 of debt and have to start paying that off once they graduate, even though they'll only be making $36k/yr. This drives people to either a)choose family medicine to start earning sooner or b)choose a higher paying specialty.

[Guest moo]

You should apply to Wash U... I know someone (Canadian) there who got a full ride. They give out lots of scholarships so don't let money deter you. btw, my parents are not rich but i am taking out 50k in loans per year (USD) to pay for my education. i figure everyone here is in the same boat... you make enough afterward to pay it all off.

 

moo

ubc 2002

northwestern--feinberg 2006

[Guest bad hombre]

thanks for the advice moo. i might check them next year, i'm only in 3rd right now. we'll see how the ontario admissions pan out this year. just out of curiosity, do you know what other schools give merit-based scholarships to canadians?

[Guest Digiti minimi]

Hey bad hombre,

 

I'm pretty new to the process and was just wondering how Washington U got a hold of your mcat scores to begin with? It sounds to me like they were courting you before you sent them anything.

[Guest Ian Wong]

WashU similarly sent ME a recruitment letter way back when, so this process of actively seeking out applicants with high MCAT scores is nothing new. If I remember correctly, tuition there was in the range of 20+ thousand a year if you didn't get any scholarships. This didn't include all the other ancillary costs of living such as rent, transportation, food, etc.

 

To this day I still don't know how they got my MCAT score because I opted not to release it at the time of writing it. It wasn't until after I got my scores back that I authorized it to go out to the Canadian schools, and by then I'd already received the WashU package.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 4

[Guest medicator007]

Glad to see that it wasnt just me puzzled as to how they got a hold of your scores. I know for a fact i released them to NOBODY but OMSAS and McGill and sure enough i got the same invitiation to apply to Washington University.

 

Bizzare!

 

Medicator

[Guest TimmyMax]

Hey,

 

This may explain your situations- often times US schools for some reason seem to have access to your MCAT scores and if you're above their predetermined cutoff or some minimum score, they automatically send you an invitation to apply. Maybe this is what happened. Perhaps you may have had to apply to a US school for this to happen, but then again, I don't really have any factual basis for this- just going on what people say.

 

Best of luck!

Timmy

[Guest therealcrackers]

I got an invitation to apply to the New York College of Podiatric Medicine for the same reason. And it came two weeks before my score report...

[Guest Chieka101]

I was thinking about high tuition the other day, too. I'm nearing the end of the American application process, and I'm pretty sure I've spent $2000 already just on the paper work. What's depressing is that since I'm a Canadian citizen, my fees will be crazy.

 

I think it's also too bad that all the med schools with relatively decent fees (approx $6000) are not in Ontario, so I really don't have a chance...

 

I've calculated the different scenarios and how much debt I could end up with (just to lump on top of my OSAP loans). I really hate how this society is set up, but what can you do?

 

I try not to think about it....

 

C.

[Guest TimmyMax]

Hey Crackers,

 

I got that same invite as well. And another from a podiatric college in Florida.

 

Timmy

[Guest Biochem10]

Hey. While on the OMSAS website the other day, I came across "Free Tuition". Upon further investigation, I learned that the Ontario government will give a med student $40,000 (10,000/year) towards their loans if they work in an underserviced area for 4 years after graduation. I think this is a great initiative for those of us out there that will not be getting any help from relatives and it could also be a good work experience for us. I'm happy to see that they're not trying to force doctors to work in underserviced areas (as the Quebec gov't has been trying to do), but rather are offering incentives. I will definetly be thinking of taking this path should I be accepted to an Ontario school.

[Guest doctorfunk]

I just received the Washington U SL recruitment letter today (Nov 28) . It is dated Nov 21, and the deadline for application is Dec 1. As with all of you, I did not release my scores to them.

[Guest therealcrackers]

I was at the announcement ceremony for that program. Elizabeth Witmer was looking particularly pleased with herself, standing in front of a Tory blue sign in the (since demolished) Bell Wing at Toronto General. HOWEVER: that program does not cover tuition ($10 vs $10.5 at the time, $13-16K now), the program does not kick in until 4th year of medicine, and the benefits are TAXABLE. It works out to about $27K, which will cover about 25-40% of yout debt depending on your living expenses through med school. Plus, some of the people in SWORRM (Western's regional medicine program) have found that most of the people who chose to work in rural or underserviced areas have as their primary reason LIFESTYLE. A nice place to live, decent conditions, certain opportunities for education, etc. NONE of which are guaranteed in this program. Also, most of the return-of-service agreements can end up being people who put in their time, but then don't stay---and that leaves the community in the same position as before 4-5 years later. The most desirable thing for this program are medical students who have self-selected for these regions, and use the funding to help get themselves set up. Read up on it a lot before you act; a lot of the communities themselves may not have financial compensations for relocations, but lotsa fringe bennies instead.

But I agree, it's better than the craziness they have in LA (POU)BELLE PROVINCE (nice place to visit, wonderful people, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to practice medicine there).

[Guest UWOMED2005]

There are actually a number of US schools that send recruitment materials out based on reported MCAT scores. Washington is probably the most notable school that engages in the practice, but you'll probably receive other pamphlets

 

The "free tuition" program really isn't as great as it sounds. As crackers pointed out, it does NOT cover tuition and is in fact taxed when you get it. As well, I'm pretty sure you don't get the money until you've completed either med school or residency, meaning you're still incurring interest in the meantime and it's taxed at a much higher rate than it would have been if you'd received the money in med school.

 

Additionally, it doesn't cover any of the living expenses. Living expenses for 4 years with no income to balance that out adds up. I'm projecting a final debt of $100,00-$125,000, with about $60,000 of that in straight tuition/student fees. $27k or whatever the "free tuition" program adds up to after taxes doesn't really make THAT much of a dent in that debtload, in the grand scheme of things. Certainly not enough to be the sole rationale behind life-altering decisions.

 

If your motivation for practicing in a location is purely financial (ie to get rid of the debt,) there are often much better incentives are offered by specific communities trying to recruit physicians. Rumours of "signing bonuses" abound, but I think even more "impressive" in the grand scheme of things are offers on the part of some towns to cover 100% of overhead for the duration of your career. One of the statistics I've seen quoted puts the average Family Physician's overhead at somewhere in the 30%-40% range. Having that covered by a 3rd party (ie the town you practice in) for the duration of your career would have a significant impact on

 

Furthermore, committing to a smaller centre at an early stage in your career would eliminate some specialty program options. You don't necessarily have to go into family medicine to enrol in the program, but how many medical geneticists do you think they need in Hannover, ON?

 

My understanding is that there's no rush to sign up for this "free tuition" program. Based on the all of the considerations I've listed above, I'd highly recommend not signing up for that program while in the early years of med school. A lot can change in 4 years, and you can always sign up later.

[Guest YankCanuck]

I'm sorry to disappoint y'all who received fancy brochures from big American institutions, but as we all know these big American institutions charge A LOT of tuition, and they also spend A LOT on fancy promotional brochures. Dartmouth Medical School, for example, doesn't send a glossy book to promote their school, rather, they send you a DVD!

 

It's just like American athletic scholarships, every team sends out hundreds of form letters to qualified athletes, when each team only needs to fill a couple spots each year. The magnitude of recruiting is much higher with medical schools, they probably send out thousands of their fancy promotional books to "recruit" for their one hundred or so spots.

 

I warn you not to feel too "special" with American propaganda. They have money to spend and they spend it!

 

Now, if only Canadian schools promoted their medical programs this way ...

[Guest bad hombre]

Yank,

 

I don't think any of us were feeling particularly special. I was just pointing out that if an upper tier med school appreciates our mcat scores and are willing to spend a few bucks to send promotional letter up here, then some of us would have a decent chance at other US schools (providing that the rest of our applications are solid).

[Guest moo]

bad hombre, sorry for the late reply but i just got back from home for thanksgiving...

 

northwestern here offers a few scholarships but you have to be really top to get one.

 

duke has a lot of merit based scholarships... the avg debt there is only about 65k, compared to other private schools which are easily over 120k.

 

i'm not too sure about other schools, but it can't hurt to apply.

 

moo

ubc 2002

northwestern--feinberg 2006

[Guest aneliz]

Did anyone else see the Scrubs episode about three weeks ago where Turk et al were stealing pudding cups and toilet paper from the hospital because they were so poor from their $130 000 student debts? Funny as it was, it probably is not too far off truthful....

[Guest MayFlower1]

I have first hand knowledge of certain individuals supplementing their ketchup...toilet paper...and even the occasional lightbulb when one burnt out...quite sad really

 

What'll be next...through residency...knives and forks...plates...napkins

 

...and the next thing you know...once graduated, a whole mismatched kitchen!

 

Peter

[Guest mirrille]

Hmmm... I didn't find out until a few years ago that certain items of cutlery and so on that I've been using all my life were originally from my parents' dorm cafeteria. This whole phenomenon is apparently nothing new...

[Guest JSS02]

I read somewhere that Harvard and Yale will cover you via bursaries for all your expenses above a certain amount ($20K? $25K?). It wasn't from either of their websites though, so I don't know how true it is. In addition to other schools mentioned below, Case Western (in Cleveland) also offers merit based scholarships.

 

I also know of someone (Canadian) who got a full ride from WashU. He didn't know much about the school until he got that letter from them after he wrote the MCAT. I believe there are only a very small number of them though (15, plus a few more for minority applicants). It's pretty discouraging when you know that not only do you have to be accepted, you have to be accepted with a full scholarship just to be able to attend. Is it even possible to borrow $200K up front?