apply-should I even bother?

[Guest dogeatdog12]

I can't seem to get my GPA higher than 3.47. should I even bother to apply to med school at all?

[Guest MayFlower1]

dogeatdog,

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe you make the cutoffs for most Ontario schools...however, I believe Mac's cuttoff is 3.1...if the rest of your application is good (e.g., extracurriculars, life experience, volunteering, etc.) you would have as good a chance as anybody else. If you're bilingual (and I do mean bilingual) you could also potentially have a good chance at University of Ottawa...francophone program...I believe the cutoff is 3.2...

 

Peter

[Guest UWOMED2005]

If you're from NS, PEI or NB definitely apply to Dal. I believe the cutoffs from maritime residents at Dal is 3.3.

 

And I think you're the same person who was asking about "Evolutionary Medicine." By coincidence, one of the WORLD EXPERTS (tons of papers in Science and Nature) in microbial evolution, practicularly lateral gene transfer, Ford Doolittle is a prof at Dalhousie. Great guy, and I found him to be a good lecturer (took his course on Genes & Genomes and microbial evolution in undergrad.) There's a whole group of researchers into this subject at Dal, including Michael Gray, Dr. Gerry Johnston (I think he works on yeast evolution) and a couple of others in the biology department. There's even a multi-disciplinary evolution group at Dal consisting of the biochem & bio guys, along with some people from the sociology, philosophy and history of science & technology programs at Dal and King's. They have some wicked discussions there.

 

If you're serious about getting into this Evolutionary Medicine field, ever thought of doing grad work at Dal and then your MD? Spending the time in NS to do your grad work would qualify you for NS residency. . .

[Guest dogeatdog12]

I am going to the university of Toronto now, and I thought of doing my research here. I did go to high school in halifax though. where that leaves me, I have no idea. I am very pissed off about my life right now. no matter how hard I try the 3.5 barrier always constrains me. Not to sound conceited, I know I have the intellectual capacity for medical school, but there's always an assignment or a bad test that gets me.

 

I feel completely demoralized. :eek

[Guest UWOMED2005]

You did your High School in Halifax? Do your parents still live there? Do you still consider that your "home address"?

 

If so, you could definitely apply to Dal as a Nova Scotia resident. As I said, last I heard the GPA cutoff for NS residents was 3.3. And that 3.3 only has to be for your two last years in undergrad (my understanding is you have to have four years in total.) My classmates at Dal who interviewed there suggested that Dal only uses GPA as a cutoff for the interview, and once you have an interview it is only the interview that matters. . . the Dal moderators could confirm or deny that.

 

Does any significant microbial evolution occur at U of T? I thought most of the significant microbial genome research was centred in Nova Scotia.

[Guest mtws]

Dogeatdog...

 

If you think you'll make a good physician --- in your heart --- and you really do everything to make that happen: then you'll make it.

 

BUT, A minimum of two solid years of academic excellence is required. Think about that for a second.

 

A relatively young physician told me that when I was an undergrad. I didn't take it to heart at the time :\ In hindsite, he was right. I didn't receive any interviews until two solid years of attention to my studies was behind me (for me it happened to be graduate studies which ironically didn't even begin until about four years had past since I heard his tidbit |I ) So, don't wait!

 

I am very pissed off about my life right now.

 

Listen to yourself! >: You won't get anywhere until you are willing to take a little credit for your own failures. Sorry if that sounds harsh but I really feel ya, bud. I've been there.

 

People who get 4.0's are not smarter than you are... they just know what they want, and they take steps to achieve it.

 

Start now!!! Two years from now you'll be thanking me and going to med school. If that's really what you want.

 

. Not to sound conceited, I know I have the intellectual capacity for medical school, but there's always an assignment or a bad test that gets me.

 

No kidding!!! Well, those tests don't "get" the people who are intensely focussed. (Which is in some ways tragic, but a fact of the system) --- You won't get this until you prove you've got the goods to succeed academically. You may have climbed Everest, built a hospital in Kenya, and won an olympic gold medal but, without the marks, you're sh-t outta luck.

 

So get the marks!

For all the people you're going to treat that deserve the kind of care you'll give them... Get the marks.

 

I feel completely demoralized

 

Been there! Life's too short man. Two years is a drop in the bucket. I say, don't give up. Go for it! Start now!!!!

 

Cheers and good luck,

Matt

[Guest peachy]

Not to sound conceited, I know I have the intellectual capacity for medical school, but there's always an assignment or a bad test that gets me.

 

Getting good grades is not a mystery, and it's not based on luck. I went from a 3.3 in my first year to 4.0 or very close to it in the following three years. After my first year I made the decision that, dammit, I was gonna get perfect grades if it killed me. And then I went and did it. If you care about med school, then just MAKE THE DECISION to get over it and improve your grades!

 

You know what? It didn't kill me. I have spent about the same time studying in each of my 4.0 years as in my 3.3 year. It's just about attitude. When you say "there's always an assignment or a bad test that gets me" you are removing responsibility from yourself for those things. It just doesn't work that way. The 4.0 students take the same tests as you do. How come they're getting better grades than you, consistently?

 

B+ and A students say "I'm going to study the material, and then write the test, and hope for the best". Then they occasionally get hit by a bad test. A+ students, on the other hand, say "I'm going to make a list of topics for this test, and not stop studying until I can answer EVERY question that I can think of on EVERY topic." It doesn't even take all that much longer, it's just a choice to change an attitude about studying and about grades.

 

I mean, if you've got the intellectual capacity, as you say, then what's separating you from the people who get great grades? School is a game, and grades are a game. If you want to win, then choose to play well.

[Guest BCgirl]

Hey UWOMED2005,

 

I don't have anything to back this up, but I do think that GPA matters after the interview at Dal. I believe Dal interviews all of the eligible maritime applicants, so I think that GPA has to be considered after the interview or else it wouldn't really be a factor at all.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

You very well might be right, BCgirl. I'm only relying on what I heard from classmates who were applying to Dal.

 

But by "interviewing all eligible applicants" do you mean all applicants, or those that make the GPA cutoff? That was my understanding of the way things worked - make the cutoff, and you have a solid shot. That's how it is for Queen's - as long as you make the interview GPA, GPA has no bearing on your admissions. Here at UWO, while it does count for 25% the general consensus is the interview matters much more - I know a few classmates who just made the cutoffs for GPA.

 

In any case, I think it's definitely an avenue worth exploring if someone were interested in medicine.

[Guest dogeatdog12]

Yeah, it sucks to feel low. I've worked hard before and I failed. right now if I make 90s on my exams I can still pull of a 3.9GPA. as much as I am trying to follow your advice I keep thinking it's impossible. What's the secret, commitment? I think I have that. well, had commitment until it suddenly hit me that I might never go to med school.

 

how does anybody get out of this? this feeling of self-pitty and apathy towards school.

 

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:|

[Guest peachy]

The "secret" is never believing that it's impossible!! Exams are still far enough away that you can ace them if you work HARD.

[Guest quebecboy]

I agree with you peachy, if you think it's impossible, you're already beaten.

[Guest eJaya]

Hey there,

At Dal, they interview ALL applicants with the minimum GPA and MCAT cut-off scores for Maritime applicants. I believe that after the interview, all factors are considered again (GPA, MCAT, extracurric's, volunteer work, life experience, plus interview) with the interview being the major factor in this last decision.

[Guest MayFlower1]

dogeatdog,

 

Yeah, it sucks to feel low.

 

how does anybody get out of this? this feeling of self-pitty and apathy towards school.

 

I have felt low due to other reasons and situations in my life. I know it seems inescapable and hopeless...but, believe me, it isn't. No matter how awful things seem, remember, there is ALWAYS a way out...it may not exactly what you were expecting...or hoping for...however, rest assured that there will be good learning at the other end...and there IS light at the end of the tunnel...

 

I've worked hard before and I failed. right now if I make 90s on my exams I can still pull of a 3.9GPA. as much as I am trying to follow your advice I keep thinking it's impossible.

What's the secret, commitment?

 

There is no "secret"...the "secret" IS "commitment". Learning to that last level (i.e., A+) as peachy and others have said, takes commitment...hard work...and an intelligent strategy. You have to figure out, for yourself, how you learn...what things are easier for you to learn...what things are more difficult for you to learn...look at what the differences are...then learn the "harder stuff" by looking at it differently, perhaps more like the way you look at the "easier stuff". I learn visually much easier than most people...visual/tactile stuff is easier for me to "encode"...other people are really good readers and "encode" text better than I do. does that mean that one strategy is better...of course not...the end objective is the same...I just approach things visually and others approach them using different cognitive skills. YOu have to find out what your learning style is. You also have to determine what is important to learn...make a list of important areas...you can't learn everything to the same level of detail...but if you think about things a bit you can usually tell what the most important areas are...learn these is great detail...and the less important areas to a lesser extent. I can alway tell when I have mastered a subject...I get this relentless internal voice literally 'spilling' facts about the particular subject into my stream of consciousness...almost like...there is so much in there it gets too crowded and some has to come out 8o

 

I think I have that. well, had commitment until it suddenly hit me that I might never go to med school.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

One thing is for sure...if you think what you're doing now is tough...wait until med school...residency...etc. Perhaps you should consider taking a step back...really look hard at where you are headed...what your objectives are...whether these objectives still make sense to you in the context of your life...still make you happy...give you purpose...or whether you need to take your life in another direction. You have to be happy with whatever it is you're doing...if you decide that medicine is where you want to go...then you must take personal responsibility for doing whatever it takes to get there...nobody else can do it for you...nor can anybody else tell you how you should do it...or even whether to do it or not...if you really want it...you'll find a way to achieve it.

 

Good luck.

 

Peter

[Guest BCgirl]

I meant (like eJaya said) that Dal interviews all the maritime applicants that have the 3.3/24 needed to apply.

[Guest MACOMERE]

dogeatdog12: There is always hope. I think in Ontario Mac is your best bet.

 

I have a question, particularly to those who got interviews or those who were accepted by Mac -

do you guys know of people who get into Mac with a GPA of 3.3 or less?

[Guest tirisa]

Hi Macomere,

 

On the Mac website, you can see the stats for the applicant pools of the last three years, and there were definitely people who got in with GPAs under 3.3. Here's the stats for last year alone:

 

3.00 - 3.10 4

3.11 - 3.16 2

3.17 - 3.19 0

3.20 - 3.29 17

3.30 - 3.59 47

3.60 - 3.69 17

3.70 - 3.89 41

3.90 - 4.00 10

 

MEAN GPA: 3.54

 

Hope that helps Macomere. Please let me know if you have problems finding the link. I can't seem to post the link right now ... likely since I've been away and this site no longer seems to recognize my computer.

 

Anyway, Dogeatdog... I agree with Macomere that Mac may be a great option for you, but only if you stay positive and apply yourself well, both in your academics and your extra currics. MTWS, peachy, Peter, and others have expressed some great thoughts and advice for you, which I'm sure you're considering, given your desire to be a physician. So stay optimistic and don't give up. I wish you all the best.

 

Cheers,

Tirisa

[Guest MACOMERE]

Thank you for the info trisia!

I can't wait to see the stats for this year to see how it compares to the previous years!

[Guest stevetilley]

dogeatdog,

 

Have you thought about switching undergrad schools? U of T undergrad is very competitive. Speaking from experience, I think you could get higher grades if you went to a less competitive school.

 

I went to U of T for my first year undergrad, I was in the Engineering Science program. It is probably the toughest undergrad program in Canada (maybe tied w/ Systems Engineering @ Waterloo). Anyhow, just to get in you need to be very bright; everyone in there is smart. Yet, i'd say about 30% fail out in the 1st semester, and another 20% or so get booted after 2nd semester.

 

My grades were good enough to stay in the program (GPA of 2.76 and an average of 73%), however, I decided to transfer after learning that most med schools don't care what undergrad program you did or what school you went to, they just care about your GPA. (Also, I was sick of the smog and the big city and the cold cold cold winters!)

 

I transferred to University of Arizona in the US, a decent school, but not by any means a Harvard! My GPA at Arizona in the biochem program is 3.85, studying just as hard as I did @ U of T.

 

Now, don't know what program you're in at UT, however, I bet that you could do the same program 9/10 other schools and get higher grades. Having a degree from UT looks good, but as I said, most med schools don't care what school you went to.

 

Hope this helps....

 

Cheers,

Steve :hat

[Guest newbee]

I'm just curious how are you affording that. Are you a dual citizen or something? I heard you have to pay out of the wazoo even for undergrad.

 

I also heard that in the states there is tons of grade inflation. Harvard is notorious for marking on a A (85%) curve!!!! Could you imagine if UofT did that, I think the curve is usually around 60-65%.

 

 

In my experience most schools in Ontario, if not Canada are pretty much on par in terms of difficulty and comparing the US schools to Canadian one's is more like apples to oranges. I've also heard there is a strong preference for students who completed their undergrad in Canada vs. other countries. However since you have the doe to do an undergrad in the US, I'm sure someone will pick up the tab for your Med school down there as well!

[Guest Biochem10]

Not to be petty, but I sort of take offense to the comments that at 9/10 schools you would get better grades than at U of T. I know of several people who transferred from McGill to U of T and got better grades at U of T. I think this is a huge generalization you are making. Grades depend on many factors including the program you are taking and the environment you are in. My friends who transferred did so because they wanted to be close to their loved ones, it had nothing to do with the school. It turned out that once they were happier in general (being close to their friends and family) they ended up doing better in school. One of my good friends told me that she found U of T's art courses way easier than McGill's because they are mostly full year, so the workload is spread out. Again, you shouldn't generalize that U of T is a tougher school because it puts down difficult programs at the other Ontario and Canadian schools. I agree with newbee's comment about most Canadian schools being on par.

[Guest stevetilley]

In response to Biochem10,

 

Whoa… I didn’t intend to offend anyone…

First off, I agree that I am making a big generalization. I realize there are many other very difficult (and very excellent) schools out there, and yes, it is possible that McGill could be more difficult than U of T. Also, I realize there is likely a varying level of difficulty within each school in the different programs.

 

However, from what I have observed, all my friends who went to UT found it to be pretty competitive (in a variety of programs from business, to liberal arts, to science). Sure, there are other schools out there, in Canada and abroad, that are just as competitive (or maybe even more competitive) than UT. But there are also many schools that are a heck of a lot less competitive! One simple explanation for this is in undergrad admission standards. Although it varies from program to program, some schools require much higher high school marks than others for undergrad admissions. UT (and McGill, Queen’s, and others) require top-notch marks out of high school. Other schools, frankly, are less selective in their undergrad admissions. Thus, students at universities with higher admissions standards will end up having smarter classmates, whom they will have to compete with for grades (in my experience, no professor will give the whole class an ‘A’, no matter how good they all are).

 

Consider this scenario: Two identical students, Bob and Tom, both with 93% averages out of high school, decide to go to university for undergrad studies. Bob goes to undergrad at school X, a prestigious school which has a lofty 90% cutoff. Tom decides to go to less-prestigious school Y, which has only a 70% cutoff. At school X, Bob competes students who all got 90%+ in high school, and thus has a hard time getting stellar grades. At school Y, Tom works equally as hard, but manages to outperform his classmates who got 70%’s and 80%’s during high school.

 

Now when it comes to applying to med school, who do you think is better off: Bob (with mediocre grades from an awesome school) or Tom (with awesome grades from a mediocre school)? Will the admissions committee consider the fact that Bob comes from a school with a better reputation? I doubt it. The official word of most med schools is that they are NOT in the business of comparing one undergrad program and/or school to another. This makes sense: it would be a daunting task to try to come up with any kind of “normalization” factor to adjust your grades depending on what undergrad program you came from (and, I would think many students, like Biochem10, would “sort of take offense” to this). Thus, it is to the premed student’s advantage to choose a less selective and competitive school for undergrad studies where he/she can achieve top-notch grades.

 

Cheers,

Steve

 

p.s. As a side note, this discussion highlights one of the advantages of the MCAT: it is a “level playing field” for students from different schools to compete. It is a good indicator of the student’s academic ability that doesn’t require having to factor in difficulty of a particular undergraduate institution and/or program.

[Guest stevetilley]

In response to newbee,

 

I’m not sure what goes on at Harvard, but here’s the grading system at The University of Arizona:

 

A = 90+ = 4.0

B = 80-90 = 3.0

C = 70-80 = 2.0

D = 60-70 = 1.0

E = below 60 = 0.0

 

Professors may adjust these grade boundaries; however, this is rarely necessary.

 

In most classes, about 15% pull off A’s, 30% B’s, 30% C’s, 15% D’s, and 10% E’s.

 

However, one thing you must keep in mind, admissions standards here are not overly stringent (need a 3.0 out of 4.0 from high school), so with hard work, dedication and an occasional all-nighter, a bright student shouldn’t have too much trouble getting mostly A’s and a few B’s.

 

I don’t think it is fair, however, to say that US undergrad compared to Canada is like apples and oranges. There are schools like in Canada much like this one, which admit anyone from high school with 70%, and the cream rise to the top fairly easily in these schools too.

 

With respect to finances, I am not a US citizen; however, this school still costs me about the same as U of T. Tuition is a little more, however, housing here is WAY cheaper than downtown Toronto, so it about evens out. Other living expenses (food, etc are about equal).

 

On the topic of Canadian med school admissions, I don’t think they care what undergrad school you come from, so long as you are a Canadian citizen and a resident of the province of the med school to which you’re applying.

 

Cheers,

Steve

[Guest Biochem10]

Thanks Steve for clarifying what you meant in your first post, I agree with your post in that med schools really don't care where you did your undergrad, so if that is your only goal then by all means chose an "easier" school. I just wanted to make the distinction that U of T is not the only difficult school out there, when talking to people from Western, Queen's, Waterloo, Guelph and McGill, I realized that everyone was finding things difficult at some point. I still believe in the logic that if you are in the "right" environment you will perform well. Some students love the competitive atmosphere at schools like U of T and end up doing really well, while others have a hard time adjusting and rather be in a smaller university.

[Guest dogeatdog12]

thanks to all who have replied. I am overwhelmed by the support. I am still a little upset. I don't know how you can pull those demons out. I still have doubts about getting good marks on finals. I wish I had the confidence you guys have.

 

I am a permanent american resident (ie I have my greencard). I don't really know how my chances will turn out in the united states. I wouldn't mind doing my medical training in the united states and then coming back to Canada to start my career. I would actually enjoy that.

 

 

Tell me more about how american school treat canadian applicants. By the way, I have never heard that U of T is a hard school. I thought it was just as hard as say York.