Grad school or Med School? HELP!

[Guest bj]

Hi all,

 

I got some shocking news yesterday: I got an OGS. I didn't expect to, so I only applied to one graduate program (as a back-up to Med). Now I am looking at other programs that might be only one year in length that I could do if I managed to get into Med school and deferred.

 

Has anyone else done this? Does deferral for a master's sound like a "valid" reason to defer? I would hate to waste a perfectly good (although unexpected) funding opportunity, but then again I really want to do Med.

 

Where is Dr. Phil when you need him?

BJ

[Guest aneliz]

I think that it will be difficult to defer to START a new degree. I know one person that deferred to start his masters...but he got a Commonwealth scholarship...and while an OGS is not a minor achievement, it will not be viewed in the same light as a Commonwealth scholarship is by med schools. And, he was not able to defer at the school that he really wanted to go to....so even though he has a deferred spot for Sept, he will likely let it go and reapply so that he can get the school that he wants.

 

The way I see it, if you know that you really want to do med, you should NOT defer meds to use your OGS...why? Because you won't be as dedicated to your masters and research as you should be, it is extemely difficult to do quality research and finish a masters in one academic year and you are depriving somebody else that really wants to do grad work of funding.

 

Just my two cents.

[Guest Chieka]

First of all, congratulations! I think being awarded OGS funding is quite an accomplishment.

 

To address your concerns: firstly, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a one year master's program, especially an M.Sc program, which is what I assume you are looking for. And if you do find one, it'd probably be really intensive. I'm doing a one year master's and barely surviving. I don't know if you want to put yourself through the stress of one right before begining something as rigorous as a medical education.

 

As to doing a master's being a "valid reason" for deferring, I think it's as good as any. However, as Aneliz noted, most schools let you defer to FINISH a master's, not to begin one.

 

I don't think I fully agree with your statement that not doing a master's would be wasting a funding opportunity. Just the fact that you were awarded an OGS is something that you can put on your CV regardless of whether or not you actually do an masters. All you have to do is put the name of the award, and then put "declined" in brackets besides it on your CV. So, your very impressive accomplishment will be noted

 

On the actual financial side of things, you will be tentatively losing one year of medical education, and thus potentially one year of salary as a doctor if you do an masters. Also, considering that a master's is not your first choice, I think it'd be better to let the money go to someone else who needs it and who REALLY wants to do a masters.

 

What YOU really want to do is medicine. I think you should do it if (or should I say when? ) you are given the opportunity.

 

To answer your last question, I don't know where Dr. Phil is. Probably on vacation with Oprah or something...

 

C.

[Guest peachy]

I've been thinking about this issue as well. Should I get into medical school, I might want to defer to do a one-year masters for various reasons. Some schools (eg UWO) really don't seem to want people to do deferrals. Others (eg Queens) seem really laid back about it - at their info session, they basically said "we give them out on a first-come first-served basis" and made it seem like everybody who wants one gets one. My suspicion is that most schools will lie somewhere in between (if you have really, really good reasons for deferring, and you can convince them of those reasons, then they'll be, well, convinced! )

 

I don't think funding is a particularly good reason, though, no offense. You can always find funding for something that you really want to do (esp grad school, where many programs do not take unfunded students at all). But if you have really compelling reasons to do the grad work, that's different!

 

I can see what Andrea is saying about not doing a Masters if you're not going to be dedicated to it. It shouldn't be about using your OGS, it should be about whether you really want to do a Masters and think it is an essential part of your career! I do want to point out, though, that one-year Masters are the NORM in some areas, so just becuase somebody wants to do a one-year masters doesn't mean that they aren't going to be dedicated to their research. Certainly in computer science one-year masters degrees are extremely common.

 

BUT whenever I think about this I also realize that I'm counting my chickens ... This is really not something to worry about until we have admissions letters in our hands - something which very well MAY NOT HAPPEN!!

[Guest aneliz]

UWO will NOT let you defer....come hell or high water...or nuclear strike or anything in between...

[Guest fox]

firstly i think anyone contemplating doing a master's program really needs to ask themselves WHY they want to do a master's.... if you want to do research, then there is no way you will finish a master's in one year. in fact, even two years is unlikely at some schools. i did mine at u of a and even though the program was three years, i expected (and worked my butt off) to be done in two years. it took me 3.5 with all the problems and resource recalls etc. it was hell!!! another thing to think about, lots of people think they will do a master's if they don't get into med school and then re-apply. when you are in the first year of a master's program a lot of schools won't look at you. most schools require you to finish your degree before you start, so the option of dropping out isn't available. in fact, at u of t, even if you change programs (say from biochem to micro) they say on their website that they won't consider your application to medicine. SO, having said all that, i think it is very important to determine your motivations for doing a master's, and believe me, you need a lot of motivation to finish a thesis based master's degree if things don't go as planned. also, it is possible to defer a year or two when applying to residency positions to pursue a master's degree. this may be more plausible as getting into med school seems to be the hardest part of the whole process.

[Guest peachy]

Hey fox,

 

I think it's misleading to say:

if you want to do research, then there is no way you will finish a master's in one year. in fact, even two years is unlikely at some schools

Maybe this applies to wet-lab research well? I don't know anything about that. But I definitely know people who have done research-based masters degrees in a year.

 

Personally, the masters program that I very much would like to do (computer science - bioinformatics) is a MAXIMUM of six terms (they won't give you any financial support beyond that), and they call it a "three to six term program". Three terms is certainly common and doable.

 

peachy

[Guest aneliz]

I think what was being referred to was doing a research based master's in a biological or biomedical area...the chances of getting a molecular bio based or animal or human trial based masters done in one academic year are about the same as getting a four year honours degree done in one year...theoretically possible if you work hard enough but it just doesn't happen....

 

I know of people that have taken up to FOUR years to finish off their masters...because there is just no end to the 'technical problems' that you can have....things like animal care facilities being quarantined, somebody spitting in/sneezing on your RNA isolations, a typo in the protocol that you are using, an enzyme that you need that gets backordered for two months, your supervisor takes off on sabatical for a year, the ethics board causes you a bureaucratic nightmare that drags on for three months, your lab loses its radioactivity licence because some moron decided to eat in the lab when it was being inspected, your cells won't grow as anticipated in culture, the -80 degree freezer dies and takes all of your samples down with it, somebody contaminates a reagent you need, your antibody won't work, etc. Life in a working biological lab is unpredictable at best...something that you think will take you two hours ends up taking you two days...somthing that should be 'easy' because you are following somebody else's protocol takes you three weeks to optimize because they left something crucial out of the instructions you received...and on and on until your one year masters takes you three...

[Guest peachy]

Yup I agree - but bj did not indicate originally that he or she was looking at wet lab or animals research. If you want to do a one-year masters, then that may mean specifically LOOKING for a type of research that can be done in a year.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Also, social science master's programs can easily be one year. A friend of mine just completed an MA in international conflict resolution of NPSIA, the Norman Patterson School of International Affairs, with no thesis. On the other hand, most humanities MA students I know (and I know quite a few) took two years because it took them that long to write their thesis.

[Guest bj]

Thanks guys and gals for all your comments. As you probably guessed, these situations are always more complex than can be gleened from a 100-word posting. I initially applied to the OGS because I want to do public health AND medicine--I just couldn't decide which one to do first. To be honest, I still haven't decided. I think a three-plus year master's would destroy me. . . but I have never heard of a public health degree taking that long. There's also the extra complication that I didn't mention earlier, which is that my hubby is finishing up his master's and will be stuck in T.O. for another year. So. . .doing a master's FIRST might make more sense since I won't have to do the long distance thing. Then again, I am itching to do meds so it may not be the best idea. The gist of my ramble is thanks for your different insight into the situation. I still don't know what I am going to do, but it helps having a different perspective.

 

Thanks!

BJ

 

P.S. Peachy (?) I also find the issue of assumption kind of hard. I am agonizing over these decisions when really I may not even have a choice!

[Guest G8M8T]

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[Guest UWOMED2005]

Hmm. . . have you thought about doing a concurrent degree? I have a classmate doing his M.Sc in epidemiology at the same time as his MD. Would this be possible with the OGS?

[Guest peachy]

Hey Uwomed2005,

 

What does "at the same time as" mean? Taking a year off to do the M.Sc. in the middle, taking a lighter medicine load so that the M.Sc. can be done part time concurrently, or...?

 

thanks

peachy

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Well, there's no such thing as a medicine load. While officially our schedule is divided into courses, really it comes as one package deal. . . almost like one mega-course. It's not like you could take a few courses here or there to complete the degree. . . it just wouldn't work.

 

I'm not sure exactly what the person I'm referring to is doing to do the degrees. I'm pretty sure he is going to have to do some extra time. But I think he might be taking a lot of night classes and trying to fit the courses into his schedule. . . the way I found about it was him mentioning he had a stats lecture to go to on a tuesday morning, which he should have had off.

 

A number of masters/professional programs (ie epidemiology, some MBA programs, policy programs) are designed so that working professionals can complete them without leaving their original jobs. Perhaps it might be possible to complete one of those concurrently with doing med school, though that seems unlikely to me considering the workload. More realistic is taking a year off between 2nd and 3rd year or something like that to complete the M. Sc.

 

Sorry I couldn't be more help!!

[Guest bj]

Thanks UWOMED2005 and peachy for the info on concurrent degrees. I don't think it would quite work with public health and the OGS, but it is a good option for other people.

 

I just found out that I got accepted to the only master's program I applied to. :b Again, something I never expected since I am an average applicant and it is an amazing program. The problem is that it is a two-year degree. I have always been split between medicine and public health--at times I have felt strongly that one or the other was my "calling". Truth is, I think both are. Now it's just up to me and fate (and those med admissions committees) to make the decision. Soul-searching, here I come!

 

My only gripe now is with crazy non-overlapping decision-making deadlines. Arg! I guess having all programs report back on the same day would be a little too much to ask. . .:b

 

BJ

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Then you should do both. You could do the master's in public health, then do an MD, then do a residency in community medicine. Bang - you're ready to step into the role of Chief Medical Officer at any one of a number of Canadian municipalities.

 

Just a thought.

[Guest peachy]

bj -- Yeah, the deadlines thing is a big pain. Personally, I will register in a masters program by their deadline (early May, I think) and then withdraw if I get into medical school. I know other people who have done this and not had a problem. My guess is that it must be pretty common, since grad school is a pretty common backup for 4th year undergrad applicants.

 

uwomed2005 - Thanks for the comments. It IS helpful.

[Guest smg]

I'm not sure if it's of any help, but my sig. other and I are facing a similar situation with grad school and potential Commonwealth Scholarship to New Zealand. We unfortunately won't know about it until July. He got the very nice OGS letter as well yesterday...so what to do?

He called the OGS people today to see what sort of policy they have in terms of accepting it and then (hopefully ) rejecting later this summer. The lady I guess kinda chuckled and said they don't even enforce the deadline and that he could send in the acceptance letter in July and they'd still give it to him. So that saves you some time with OGS, although you might want to check it out for yourself. I suppose grad school deadlines are a whole other ball of wax. Good luck with the decisions.

[Guest Dannyboy]

Just to possibly complicate things a bit: with U of T at least, significant changes are in the works for their public health program. The most relevant one is a change to a one year program which is more in keeping with U of T's move to universal one year MA programs.

 

So, even with your OGS (congrats by the way), if the program is changed to a one year program in a couple of years, the relative financil benefit of the OGS is reduced.

 

As well, with U of T's program at least (and I have heard that other such programs offer similiar programs), there is a continuing ed for meds stream---so, after earning a MD, you can enter that program and get a PH degree at essentially your own pace.

 

I know the OGS seems like a lot of money and regardless, it is an honour to get such an award, but I wouldn't let that weigh very much with your decision. This is advice from someone in a very precarious financial sitution---I FULLY appreciate the financial aspects of school. However, I chose a program because I was offered a lot of money; I would pay twice what I received if I could reverse the decision. I write that with only two weeks left to go for my degree. I didn't chose my program/school only for financial reasons but in the end, the $$$$ is what tipped the scales. Yeah, I accorded it too much weight. Opps.

 

Follow your heart, not the $$$$$$$$$$$. If you remove the $$$$$ aspect from the equation, what you want might become more clear.

[Guest fox]

i have to agreee with dannyboy. i just finished a master's degree (MSc) and i was funded by both NSERC and AHFMR (the provincial equivalent of NSERC). because i had an NSERC i also had my tuition paid for. now that i have my master's i am working in a field that is completely unrelated (actually secretarial, but in the hospital because i wanted experience for med school). the money and prestige of the scholarships seems great when you first win these honours, but really, they are not very much to live off of in the end. the biggest problem i have with having gotten a master's is that if i were to work in my field, i would have to be a lab tech and they make less than i made on scholarship (or as i am making as a "secretary"). IF i was able to get a job in industry i could make more, but the chances of that are slim, and you have to live in one of three major cities in canada. so this whole master's thing taught me a few things. i really don't care much about money, but after spending 8 years in university, i would at least like to think i was employable and able to find a job i liked AND survive on the income if i want to have a family. i, therefore, am going to pursue a career in medicine (for many other reasons as well, but these particular reasons pertain to dannyboy's comments).

[Guest peachy]

Bj,

 

Those who have posted so far have had really helpful advice! I just want to add that you may feel very differently when you get into medical school.

 

I got my letter yesterday, and it managed to change things around in my head much more than I thought it would. It was so specific about September 2003, and when I got it, I realized even more that it's what I want to do more than anything. It was a completely different feeling than getting my NSERC PGS or grad school acceptance letters. I'm not really seriously considering asking for a deferral any more, but I really thought before I got the letter that I would still want to.

 

I mean, there's part of me that really wants to spend that year learning really cool stuff, and use the $27K in funding. But most of me wants to get on with it and go to medical school already!!

 

So you may want to worry about this more AFTER you find about med school, because then you may find that your worry disappears altogether.

 

peachy

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there bj,

 

It's not uncommon for MDs to enter the Community Health, Epi or other such programs after completing medical school, and as was metnioned previously, some schools offer part-time options. The OGS is nice, granted, but at the end of meds, you may find that there is an area of research that may interest you more (which may then translate to an easier time attaining your residency of choice), and potentially you may be in a stronger position (with that MD behind your name) to snag other grants. Also, another possibility is completing the M.Sc. as part of your residency, depending on the residency that you ultimately choose.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest UWOMED2005]

That's right - I've found it quite surprising to learn how many of my MD profs have or are in the process of completing degrees in epidemiology, and in some cases public health.

[Guest me maniac]

Kirsteen,

 

could you eloborate on the part-time options you mentioned for epi/public health?

 

UWOMED2005

 

your profs are doing the epi thing as they also have teaching positions and a private practice? Wow, they must have a full schedule!

 

me