Macmaster directions on application

[Guest dogeatdog12]

hi

 

I was thinking of applying next year to macmaster. I fall into the GPA range but I will be in third year only. First of all where can I see an application? What sort of information do I need? Anyway, I am a little worried about this school. I have seen people with perfect application get rejected pre-interview. I have no idea what Macmaster is looking for in its meds. Can anyone help me with this? thanks. I know my chances of getting accepted are statistically slim but I thought I would familiarize myself with the application process.

 

thanks

[Guest Dannyboy]

Anything you should/need to know can be found on Mac's and OMSAS's websites.

 

I think the best advice I could provide any applicant is don't worry so much about what Mac wants--just be yourself. If Mac and you are the right fit you shouldn't have to know much about the logistics of the getting an interview. You absolutely need to know about the school and the program but I am not a big advocate of playing the Mac game--ie. you risk forcing a fit that doesn't exist. I purposely did not look at boards such as this one and I didn't ask advice on how best to answer Mac's 15 questions when I applied because I wanted to be as sure as possible that Mac's program was right for me and I for it.

 

There is such a great variety of med schools in Canada that you are bound to very suitable for one of them. Mac's program is most definitely not for everyone. There are sometimes very good reasons why the supposed "perfect" applicants don't get chosen. I question your observation/comment since there is no "perfect" applicant, especially when schools utilize an holistic approach like Mac does. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. If you are yourself and you are honest things will work out for you.

[Guest macMDstudent]

Have you heard that expression, "I don't know what I'm looking for, but I'll know when I've found it"? Dannyboy was completely correct that there is no perfect applicant. Do you mean a perfect 4.0 GPA? GPA is only half the criteria for an interview. The other half is the "15 questions." As has been posted here in other places before, it's important to remember it's not what you've done but how you explain it in your answers. There is definitely not 15 "perfect" pre-formed answers that the application committee is waiting to see and say "ahhh, he found the secret code." Just read the instructions VERY carefully and do exactly what they say. The most important thing is to ANSWER THE QUESTION! You'd be surprised how many people never actually answer the question. Proofread it carefully. Silly grammatical or spelling errors lessen the impact quite a bit of what should be considered the most important document of your life. The reader assumes it is that important to you, so carelessness will cost you! Of course, your answers should relate information about yourself in a meaningful way. Therefore your special qualities will come across.

 

There are all different kinds of people in the MD program. We are not clones (far from it!). Always remember that 138 PEOPLE get accepted. Even though the odds may look low, its still just people getting accepted. I have not seen an of my classmates walk on water! They have come from the same undergraduate programs that you (i.e. members of this forum) have done. Unfortunately, it is a numbers game (as has been mentioned before) and a bit of a crapshoot. But one thing is for sure: if you don't try applying, you definitely won't be accepted!

 

I differ a bit with Dannyboy in that I think it does make sense to "play the game" a bit and find out everything you can about the process and the program to enrich your chances.

[Guest dogeatdog12]

thanks for all of your help. One of the reasons I want to join medicine is because I love the biomedical sciences, teaching. do you think I should mention that, or will they say "WHY DIDN'T YOU BECOME A TEACHER?" that's what I am most afriad of.

 

by the way the fifteen questions, do they want them answered like an assignment? 1) answer

2) answer. or do they want them all together.

[Guest Dannyboy]

Just to clarify: by "play the game" I meant it more on the extreme side. I've met people who literally lied on the application to force fit themselves into the Mac mold. It might work but....being happy with the program is important and I wouldn't want anyone to force the fit when there are so many excellent, viable options in Canada regarding med schools, ya know?

 

"Playing the game" meaning following the advice of others (e.g. check your grammar/spelling; answer the questions; use examples) is definitely not what I meant. I offer to help others with their applications only because I do a lot of writing and I am fairly good at articulating what others struggle to express---I would NEVER answer a question for anyone. In a way, this is "playing the game" BUT I think that is helping really nice, deserving applicants. I think it is constructive problem solving and it does involve applying group skills. I know others think it is wrong and yep, it definitely falls under the 'playing the game' umbrella.

 

I guess I should have been more concrete with my answer. I should have stressed that I think you try to be yourself and not what you think Mac wants you to be.

 

About the questions--my understanding is that the combined questions should portray a holistic pic of who YOU are but each are answered individually--try not to repeat yourself since you only have 700 characters to play with and repeated answers can be boring. I would treat each question as an individual assigment.

 

Why do you want to practice medicine vs teach? There are no right answers for that one only the one that is right for you. A critical role of a physician is to teach but do you mean in lecture format? Not that it matters that much, just curious. I think they might ask you that question (I was asked a similiar one). I would.

 

BTW: I asked a Mac rep on my interview day about helping people with the appl process and she said that Mac does indeed consider that problem solving and that it is NOT cheating nor is it considered to be compromising the integrity of the process.

 

So.....I think I've managed to confuse you even more. Opps......At least you have until Oct. 15th to mull the info over!

[Guest macMDstudent]

Rule #1: Don't lie on your application! It is a legal document and there is a little disclaimer on it that says if it is not the truth, your application will be immediately rejected and you will not be allowed to apply to any med school in Ontario for 7 years! If you lied on your application and it is found out AT ANY POINT if after you are are accepted, you will be removed from the program and not allowed to re-apply in Ontario for 7 years. Don't mess around with that!

 

I guess I also should clarify what I meant by the "game." Using Mac-speak on your application is essentially what I was referring to. For example, we don't have lectures, we have "large group sessions." That kind of thing. Also making what you TRUTHFULLY did sound like it perfectly prepared you for Mac. For example "playing baseball" might become "baseball taught me how to build a cohesive team and how important good communication is in a group setting." I better not see that next fall when I'm reading applications, though....

 

I agree that getting your application read over by other people and getting as much input as you can from people who know something about the program is not playing a game; it is just smart to do. I had a relative who is a professional editor read mine over and it really helped me cut down on the words I used so I could say more in my limited space. Do not be too verbose or flowery. Be concise and answer the question by telling a little about about yourself. Be honest about your ambitions, but you don't have to declare a specialty just yet! If you have a ton of experience doing cancer research, nobody would fault you for wanting to go into oncology. If you know somebody who influenced you in a big way, then use that one of your answers. It's supposed to be unique, like each person applying; but it is also supposed to show you know something about Mac, and have what it takes to get through the program and to be a success in medical practice. That is the assignment the way I see it.

[Guest dogeatdog12]

I love teaching , but not in lecture format as much. I actually enjoy lecturing in a class size. I did for junior high biology wizards back in halifax. However, when I took them into individual groups and actually showed them how evolution works and how the processes take place that's when I had my real fun. I was told that's what the majority of teaching is at the doctor-student level. To combine the medical sciences and teaching would be a dream.

 

Do you think that would be worth putting on a application? or should I write "I enjoy the very special relationship a doctor has with his or her patients."

 

 

As for writing the application, I just don't see how mine will stick out if I just write what I truly feel. I bet there are thousands just like me who write teaching and the biomedical sciences is a dream. How dou you make your selecitons.

 

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[Guest Dannyboy]

dogeatdog: I think you are underestimating yourself. Just with the few sentences that you wrote you stood out. I wouldn't be where I am or who I am without the help of a handful of very, very, special teachers who beleived in me long before I did. The ability to teach is such a special gift.

 

I have to be off the board for a bit--just cuz I will have very limited access to the internet for a while but in late May or June sometime I will make a post offering assistance with appls. I am absolutely not suggesting I have any special insight regarding the appl (please don't let anyone think that!) but sometimes it helps to have someone who does not know you look these things over. What you find is obvious and not worthy of including may actually be what makes you sparkle.

 

Yeah, I think what you wrote is worth including; I sense that is truly where your heart is at. But, I think it could be worded better than you have (and yeah, I think you know that).

 

I wrote what meant the most to me; some of the things could easily have been interpreted as rather trivial. Many people were shocked with my selections (most notably the things I left out) but my various awards and accomplishments, for example, were about what others thought of me and they were not what was important to me. They definitely did not represent who I am and who I wanted to be. They were nice but really quite meaningless to *me*.

 

The appl process is such a self-reflective personal thing. I wish I could help you more but I don't think I can.

[Guest Blackbird15]

Hi Dogeatdog,

I like your answer a lot, but I actually don't think it would be appropriate for the "why do you want to become a doctor" question (though I'm not sure if you meant for it to be the whole of your answer). I think when med schools are asking this question, they are looking for you to name inherent qualities/aspects of medicine and medical practice that appeal to you. You are right, your answer would simply raise the question of 'why don't you do a Phd in biomedical sciences and then teach?'. It's a good start though! But you should combine it with how something inherent in medical practice/research appeals to you. Also don't forget that medical practice Can potentially include patient education (e.g. explaining the patient's disease, treatment options, and potential outcomes of those treatments to him/her, teaching patients healthy lifestyle habits -- though this sort of thing is also done by nurses), so if you enjoy teaching, you can use your teaching skills in that respect as well.

 

take care,

Blackbird

 

P.S. macdreams, if you're reading this and you want me to look at your essay, please email it to me soon, as in a week, I'm leaving the country for 2 months.

[Guest Dannyboy]

Blackbird: I am not so sure that the role of educator isn't a fundamental aspect of medicine--I have quite a few profs who are MDs who both have never practiced "typical" medicine (ie. they never had patients) and never had any desire to do so. NEVER.

 

One of my best friends is just finishing a law degree and she already is a MD--she wants to teach law/medicine (medical patent laws actually). That has been her plan from day one. I know she is one person who feels very stongly about teaching being an inherent aspect of medicine. But yeah, maybe don't make teaching the focal point of "why medicine". Although I included it and one of my interviewers talked at length about drs roles as teachers.

 

That is what is great about those questions--they are so individualistic. One of the reasons medicine is such a great discipline, I think, is that it is so broad it can accommodate so many varied interests.

[Guest Blackbird15]

Dannyboy, you're right that teaching can be a part of a career in medicine (both in academic settings and in patient education), which is why I mentioned to dogeatdog that it's a good start. However, if I were on the adcom, I would be somewhat wary of an applicant who only showed a passing interest in practicing medicine, and wanted to focus on teaching. I would wonder why they want to pursue an MD degree, seeing as an MD degree is not vital to a career in teaching. My point was that, in my opinion, you have to show some interest in medical practice to the adcom. The fact that your professors never practiced medicine doesn't change that, and certainly, admissions procedures have changed since they applied to medical school. I myself know many people with an MD degree who choose not to practice, but the focus of my post was on admissions. Once you're in med school (or after you've practiced for a while), you can decide for yourself that perhaps medical practice is not for you.

 

take care,

Blackbird

[Guest Dannyboy]

Blackbird: yeah, I totally agree with you BUT of those people I mentioned, all but one got their MDs within five years and their intention was never to be a "standard" MD--what are the words I am looking for since whenever I've mentioned to them that they don't "practice medicine" I always get a mini lecture on what "practicing medicine' involves, ie. to them, teaching, writing, and conducting *research* (that is often their passion), IS practing medicine (??). One of them does amazing work with cancer patients and he has a FIT when you say that what he does isn't "practicing" medicine since he never actually interacts with patients; as far as he is concerned, his role as a researcher is the most critical.

 

From my understanding, they were always up front about their goals--even during the application process. Two of them got MD/Phds and if my memory serves me well, it was asssumed that they wouldn't be "practicing" medicine.

 

I think it might be like law--about 50% of LLBs NEVER enter the litigation forum. They do a wide variety of law-related activities (teaching is an important one) but they aren't "lawyers" in the sense we think they are.

 

I have another friend just finishing up a MSc (she has a MD) so she can teach exclusively in the US--her goal is not to see another patient for the rest of her life. I don't understand it either but to each their own, I suppose. I cannot imagine just teaching if I had a MD (or teaching at all since I SUCK at it). I know I would be 100% people-orientated.

 

Once again, if teaching is your passion, I think mentioning it is acceptable IF WORDED WELL (ie. if it is noted but it isn't the cited sole reason you want to pursue medicine). Having to defend your interests is also fine, I think. I know I had to defend mine.

 

Have a great trip Blackbird. You deserve a long, relaxing, fun, fun, fun, exciting vacation!

[Guest Blackbird15]

Thanks Dannyboy! I'm very psyched about this trip, especially since I feel like it'll be my last chance for carefree travelling... after which I'll be completely broke!

 

I guess there's a definite variation in what people consider practicing medicine. To me, there's a definite distinction between academic medicine (teaching and research) and medical practice (interacting with patients in a clinical encounter), but like you said, everyone has their own take on it.

 

take care,

Blackbird

[Guest dogeatdog12]

wow,

 

reading you two debate makes me even more confused about putting teaching as a purpose. I know I have to be honest but I also would like to have a chance of getting in.

[Guest Blackbird15]

Hey dogeatdog,

sorry for the confusion! That's certainly not what we meant to do; I just enjoy lively debates

Don't assume that I know what I'm talking about. I got an interview at Mac but haven't heard back from them yet, so I don't really have any more insight than the next person into the admissions process. It's hard to say what idea will work well as an answer and what won't unless I read the final draft of the answer. Two people can take the same idea and information and present it in two completely different ways. For instance, when discussing my time management skills, I talked about being a workaholic and losing sleep, so you never know...

 

take care and good luck!

Blackbird

[Guest McMastergirl]

Dogeatdog, how do you know your chances are slim? (I'm referring to your first post). If you fall into the GPA range, then anything is possible! Don't worry about what Mac is "looking for" - just worry about knowing who you are and what you want. And don't listen to anyone when it comes to your reasons for applying to medicine, because only YOUR reasons matter. Don't just put what you *think* they want to hear. I've marked those essays and you don't get points for being a suck-up! You get points for being genuine, thoughtful and sincere. And it doesn't matter if you've done 3 years of undergrad or you're pushing 50. You just never know what can happen, so just go for it.

[Guest macMDstudent]

You are trying to create an impression on someone who has a pile of those things to read. Paint a verbal picture of yourself so the key facts about yourself are clear, but at the same time make sure your answer actually is an answer to the question!

 

I agree with everything McMastergirl said except 8o "don't just put what you think they want to hear." You can't write just anything. There is something "they" do want to hear: that what you've written actually answers the question in each and every case, and why you (above all others) should be a doctor, and specifically a doctor trained at Mac as opposed to any other school. In other words, does this person know what they are getting in to? By emphasizing things that are more important at Mac than at other schools, I think it shows an understanding of the program. Now if you just want to get into just any med school (and would even settle for U of T :rollin ), this may be a stretch. But for the ones who want Mac as choice #1, this should be easy anyway.

 

Also keep in mind that philosophical gobbledygook about how medicine is the most wonderful, caring profession in the world (blah blah blah) without any personal insights or examples are boring and generally do nothing to highlight yourself, or make you stand out from the rest of the stack of applications.

 

By telling a little story about yourself (referenced of course) for each answer you can create an impression. What I did was answer each question 1-14 by telling what I did (i.e. one or more of my activities that could be verified), what I learned from it, and how what I learned from it would help me at Mac or in the practice of medicine. This certainly means nobody else could ever recycle my application, it was unique.

 

By doing this I feel that I demonstrated understanding why that question was being asked. I tried to weave my experiences as well as my genuine, thoughtful and sincere reasons for wanting Mac Medicine into each answer (thanks McMastergirl for the good choice of words ). I used #15 (justify getting an interview) as a summary, with no new information added at that point. Keep in mind, this worked for me but there is no formula that is for sure. There is no getting around the fact you have to spend a lot of time on it to say a lot in a few words and to make it personal but not narcissistic!

[Guest peachy]

Now if you just want to get into just any med school (and would even settle for U of T:rollin ), this may be a stretch.

Now, I completely know that you meant this in jest ... and that I am being touchy ... but it still bothers me. I'm not sure why U of T-bashing tends to happen on this board, but I have to say that I never find it especially funny.

[Guest macMDstudent]

Hi Peachy,

 

Totally in jest of course! Only said that because we perceive the U of T program to be strongly didactic and lecture based whereas we, of course, have few lectures and are fundamentally problem based learning. By far and large, I think we prefer what we got(at least I do), that's all; and therefore we are glad we are not at U of T sitting in a lecture hall 7 hours a day. That is the humour (at least to me )

 

An additional historical note is that there was a perceived difficulty of McMaster students in the past to access U of T for learning at both the undergraduate level for clinical electives, and to be accepted to competitive residency positions at U of T just because our program was not like theirs. The adminstration at U of T apparently was not always so helpful to Mac students (not my first hand experience, it is passed down "rumour mill" sort of stuff). It is also my understanding that this is changing at U of T, and that Mac grads are competitive in every field of residency now. So it's just a little playful "back at ya" but you're right, we are all collegues and should just get along. Just meant it as a little jocularity in here!

[Guest dogeatdog12]

wow, its really nice to hear. I didn't really want to avoid mentioning teaching because that's the part I enjoy the most about medicine. I also love the biomedical sciences. The interaction at the personal level, and the subject make medicine appealing. I would love to say that the Doctor-Patient relationship is special but I have no experience from this. I consider my family doctor to be a part of my family but I don't see how that fits within my application.

 

This is so confusing. the Doctor-student relationship seems extremely interesting. I actually was getting an ultrasound and I saw some radiology residents. I saw how the specialist was teaching and giving advice to the resident. I thought "that's so cool ". the specialist doctor was so knowledgeable and she knew so much. I thought that's what was so neat. It wasn't like a lecture it was like a lesson or a private hands on tutorial.

 

I know its sounds corny. I am just too afraid to write that on my application. I am just thinking there's too many people writing the same BS and the student will just throw it out.

[Guest macMDstudent]

One of the nice things about Mac is that in tutorial based learning for 3 hours twice a week you are with only 5 other students and your tutor who is usually a specialist in something. This low student:tutor ratio means you can get lots of chance to interact as well as lots of "pearls" of knowledge from them.

 

There is a saying used at Mac and in medical education everywhere. That is "see one, do one, teach one." In my family medicine elective a couple weeks into medical school in September I watched some vaccinations. Then the doc said to me "Your turn!" Wow. After doing a few, you do feel like you could teach it. Granted this doesn't mean I'm ready to do open heart surgery but the basics of an IM injection I could show anyone.

 

This is what you saw going on with your ultrasound. This is how we learn on clinical electives and clinical skills in hospital with patients. It is inherently understood in medicine that teaching is is necessary to produce future collegues. If it is truly what you like, then work it into some of your answers! Being sincere, honest and demonstating how this will help you at Mac and in the future practice of medicine will show that it is not BS.

 

And nothing gets thrown out in the application process. Every one one of those applications is read independently (that is, without any collaboration) by a medical student, a faculty member and a member of the community. Every single one!

[Guest dogeatdog12]

I just want to know if I put as my sole purpose for going into medicine as teaching will that be a good idea? I don't know much about doctor patient relationships.