So are family doctors making more by the hour than a lot of specialists/surgeons?

[da_birdie]

Actually $10/hr for 40 hrs/week with 50 weeks of the year (highly unlikely be working that much) would be 20k / year.

 

Make it $25/hr and thats 50k.

 

I don't know where you live but security guards here don't get paid $25/hr. They make closer to minimum wage. Trades after highschool don't get 40-60k average. I know MANY engineer/computer sci friends and they make around 40-60k (the average posted by the university Co-op is around 30k) Pharmacists now get paid less than $40/hr (Costco pays highest in Van and they pay $38/hr) so around 70k, so I HIGHLY doubt nurses make 100k+

 

Teachers also don't get paid 70-90k or anything close to it. Professors salary are posted from UBC at least and there are only a handful of profs making over 90k.

 

However I agree with your point about family doctors!

Agreed re: pharmacists. Community pharmacists are over-supplied in Greater Vancouver. Most jobs are part-time or casual. Wages are being pushed downward by employers. Hospital pharmacists are at ~40/hr depending on seniority. They are at negotiating tables with government, faced with ~14% wage cut (removal of previous incentives).

 

Re: nurses. Those who put in more over-time and evening/weekend/stat holiday shifts can make >100k. On the publicly available salary list you can find some BC nurses (usually in ICU/CCU) making 150k-200k. Their base salary is lower than pharmacists' though. Health authorities are doing belt-tightening nowadays to reduce OT hours by nurses by hiring more casuals or replacing RNs with more abundant (and much cheaper) LPNs, however.

 

Re: family docs. Agreed that avg/median income is lower than many specialties. However, as you gain experience and get to know your patients over the years, you can comfortably see 36-40 patients and finish all charting/referral/labs, all within an 8 hour 9-5 work day, without taking any work home. If you can negotiate a good split (or lower your overhead via group-practice, etc), it's not difficult to get an after-expenses, pre-tax daily income of $1000-$1100. If you do this 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year, that's 250k pre-tax income. As someone here once said, no Ferrari but at least a decent Bimmer or Lexus... but no Ferrari

[da_birdie]

As an aside. BC NDP's platform will increase the marginal provincial income tax rate of the top bracket (>150k) from 14.7% to 19%.

 

That's a 4.3% marginal tax hike, guess that's how the potential government plans to address income inequality ...

[aaronjw]

The point is, seeing discussions about the difference in income between one specialty or another when, for the most part, at the median and average positions, said person will be almost 7 times the Canadian average for a single, non-senior person.

 

I have no problems with what a physician makes, in general, though to suggest that a family physician is paid less than other specialties and that because it's better than X doesn't mean its right they still get paid less is the dumbest logic I've heard in a while. People knew what they were signing up for. That's like a cop *****ing that they "only" make X given their life endangerment risks. They knew what they were signing up for.

 

If someone is concerned family physicians are making less than other specialties then maybe they should have anted up for a competitive specialty?

 

Please give some specific examples of which jobs you're talking about which are making those salaries (20-30k) and then continue to name some more jobs which require a degree, and then some jobs which require further advanced training/ trade schools. 20-30k are your $10-12/hr jobs.

 

Bus/truck drivers/ mall security guards are making 50k+. Trades right after highschool are making 40-60k+. Unit clerks are making 70k and nurses are making 100k+. Teachers are making 70-90k and elementary school principals are making 140k.

 

All I'm saying is that as a physician you shouldn't feel bad that you are well-compensated. And that 190k for 5pts/hour and 9 hrs/day is on the lower spectrum of physicians.

 

We are pointing out that family doctors are getting paid less. Just because it's still it's pretty good compared to _______ doesn't mean it's right.

[leviathan]

Family physicians who only work in an office based setting are not common at all. Even then they have to take call. FM pays well, but if you want the big $ look somewhere else.

Maybe where you live, are you in Quebec? It isn't true for a lot of other places in Canada though. Most family docs in Vancouver just work in offices, for example. And they still usually pull in 150-200k/year working 5 days/week 6 hours/day (+/- some charting at the end) if they work efficiently.

[leviathan]

As an aside. BC NDP's platform will increase the marginal provincial income tax rate of the top bracket (>150k) from 14.7% to 19%.

 

That's a 4.3% marginal tax hike, guess that's how the potential government plans to address income inequality ...

Standard left-wing budget. Not sure if I'm going to vote NDP but I definitely wont be voting for the Lieberals.

[thebouque]

Maybe where you live, are you in Quebec? It isn't true for a lot of other places in Canada though. Most family docs in Vancouver just work in offices, for example. And they still usually pull in 150-200k/year working 5 days/week 6 hours/day (+/- some charting at the end) if they work efficiently.

 

I don't live in Quebec... Maybe that's how it is in the caribbeans but not in Canada.

[medigeek]

I don't live in Quebec... Maybe that's how it is in the caribbeans but not in Canada.

 

I think you're just unaware

Apparently there's some family doctors seeing >50 patients a day on a 9-5 schedule... lol do the math. Adds up to ~500k/year.

[medigeek]

I'd like to chip in here as a practicing GP in Vancouver, in both hospital and community settings.

 

A major reason physicians choose FM is the flexibility.

Of the 8 female GPs I worked with in the last 4 years, an average work week = 4 days. Several of them actually work 10-3, to coincide with kids' school hours.

 

FM is one of the fields where there is a large variation on hours worked.

 

Let's look at an "average" Vancouver male GP in community practice,

seeing (only) 5 pts/hr, 35 pts/day (8-8.5 hrs/day incl. lunch/paperwork), 5 days/week. (your estimte of 20-40 hrs/wk of paperwork is a gross-overestimation, only possible if you're an extremely slow writer in an extremely disorganized paper-based office focusing on writing medico-legal reports - which are actually quite lucrative by the way)

 

Assume 47 work-weeks/year, that means 8225 pts/year

Assume Avg billing = $33/pt (including complex care/3rd party fees),

then Annual Total billings= $271,425

Assume he gets the "Standard" split (or overhead) of 70/30, then pre-tax income is $190k.

 

Now let's look at an "average" Vancouver hospital/community-clinic based GP:

BCMA/Province negotiated hourly salary/fee is $115/hr

Assume Avg 40 hours/week, 47 weeks/year.

Then Net pre-tax income = $216k.

 

I'd say $190k-$216k ($115/hr) is higher than avg pharmacists' income of $80k ($40/hr).

 

33$ is like the minimum billing per patient in Ontario. So the average would be more like high 30s or 40$ a patient.

[medigeek]

Hey, it's a good discussion about the various professions and what they make. Here is where I'm getting my salaries from:

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/public-sector-salaries/basic.html

 

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/pssd/

 

I highly suggest clicking through the various categories.

 

You can set the categories to education, health etc.

 

If you set it to education, there are 1400 elementary and highschool teachers in BC making over 100k. And I don't know how many that is in the Ontario article. Of course this commensurates with experience but the thing is that they have 3 months summer vacation, professional-development days, get off work at 4 PM, have pensions, bonuses and no overhead, etc.

 

You can also look up University professors and quite a lot of them make over 100-150k.

 

You can also look at firefighters, police officers (search for constables, Sergeants, etc)...and they are in the 70-80k-average range too.

 

And there's actually a very large number of nurses making over 100k. This can be seen in the Vancouver Sun link and also if you look at other provinces too, such as Ontario.

 

 

The thing with a posted hourly salary is that they frequently receive overtime bonuses, so even though nurse job postings in BC often say $30-40/hour, as you can see, it's not a simple calculation of multiplying #hours and #weeks.

 

 

While I won't say that just because we have gone through years of training we are entitled to a job that pays extremely well, what we CAN do is acknowledge that since we are going to be working professionals, it is within reason to raise issues about income disparities. And that includes not being idle and letting fingers being pointed at us saying our salaries are all ridiculous compared to everybody else.

 

Professors making that much have been in that field for years and years once you consider their education background/phd/post doc/teaching-research time.

 

Nurses making >100k work like >60 hours a week... teachers making >100k teach night school and summer school...

 

 

 

Agreed re: pharmacists. Community pharmacists are over-supplied in Greater Vancouver. Most jobs are part-time or casual. Wages are being pushed downward by employers. Hospital pharmacists are at ~40/hr depending on seniority. They are at negotiating tables with government, faced with ~14% wage cut (removal of previous incentives).

 

Re: nurses. Those who put in more over-time and evening/weekend/stat holiday shifts can make >100k. On the publicly available salary list you can find some BC nurses (usually in ICU/CCU) making 150k-200k. Their base salary is lower than pharmacists' though. Health authorities are doing belt-tightening nowadays to reduce OT hours by nurses by hiring more casuals or replacing RNs with more abundant (and much cheaper) LPNs, however.

 

Re: family docs. Agreed that avg/median income is lower than many specialties. However, as you gain experience and get to know your patients over the years, you can comfortably see 36-40 patients and finish all charting/referral/labs, all within an 8 hour 9-5 work day, without taking any work home. If you can negotiate a good split (or lower your overhead via group-practice, etc), it's not difficult to get an after-expenses, pre-tax daily income of $1000-$1100. If you do this 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year, that's 250k pre-tax income. As someone here once said, no Ferrari but at least a decent Bimmer or Lexus... but no Ferrari

 

You can definitely get a ferrari off of 250k, certainly not in your first year of work but definitely doable.

[Prince Medward]

Standard left-wing budget. Not sure if I'm going to vote NDP but I definitely wont be voting for the Lieberals.

 

You should vote NDP. Increased taxes means more government revenue which means money for healthcare and doctor salaries.

 

Besides, the effective tax rate for most businesses, including doctors, is much less than the poor worker who gets tax deducted at source. Get a good tax lawyer to draw up an effective tax plan for you.

[Lunasly]

10 charmanders...

[mavrik13]

Professors making that much have been in that field for years and years once you consider their education background/phd/post doc/teaching-research time.

 

Nurses making >100k work like >60 hours a week... teachers making >100k teach night school and summer school...

 

+1 - nurses make around, or just slightly over, $30/hour. That equals about 65k working full-time (still a great salary, by pretty much any standard). Even if they get paid overtime (which isn't very often, due to budget constraints), they would have to be working consistent overtime throughout the entire year to even come close to cracking $100k. The other option would be to take pay in lieu of benefits, if allowed, which would allow them to increase their hourly pay, but they would still have to work 50-60+ hours a week to come close to 100k.

 

Teachers max out at around 80k per year. Those who are making more than 100k are either principals (who work year-round), or teachers who have maximum tenure and teach night/summer school.

[schmitty]

+1 - nurses make around, or just slightly over, $30/hour. That equals about 65k working full-time (still a great salary, by pretty much any standard). Even if they get paid overtime (which isn't very often, due to budget constraints), they would have to be working consistent overtime throughout the entire year to even come close to cracking $100k. The other option would be to take pay in lieu of benefits, if allowed, which would allow them to increase their hourly pay, but they would still have to work 50-60+ hours a week to come close to 100k.

 

Teachers max out at around 80k per year. Those who are making more than 100k are either principals (who work year-round), or teachers who have maximum tenure and teach night/summer school.

 

Actually I know several nurses (some in my family too) and they make around $35/hr even for relatively new, and they DO get overtime and a LOT of premiums for overnight/weekend shifts.

[Wachaa]

The best way to know is to look at the numbers in the links I provided in the previous post. There are many, many teachers, nurses, making over 100k.

 

Teachers will earn salaries over 90-100k after 10 years of teaching and have approximately $7000 in benefits. These numbers do not include summer school. http://education.alberta.ca/admin/workforce/faq/teachers/teachersalaries.aspx

 

Nurses earn salaries of over 100k with weekend and overtime work. There may be bonuses for shifts during certain days: holidays, weekends, evenings. They can work in 10-12 hr shifts and it is not common to have a schedule such as 4-days on, 4-days off.

 

 

This was not meant to derail the discussion topic but rather to say that it is not appropriate to compare the physician's salary to that of the "general population" and say that "because we have it much better, we need not lobby for salary increases".

 

So far as this thread has been going: based off the averages of FPs that people have given examples of, and acknowledging that going into specialties is where the money is at, it seems clear that the answer is: No. Family physicians are not earning more by the hour than specialists/surgeons.

[medigeek]

The best way to know is to look at the numbers in the links I provided in the previous post. There are many, many teachers, nurses, making over 100k.

 

Teachers will earn salaries over 90-100k after 10 years of teaching and have approximately $7000 in benefits. These numbers do not include summer school. http://education.alberta.ca/admin/workforce/faq/teachers/teachersalaries.aspx

 

Nurses earn salaries of over 100k with weekend and overtime work. There may be bonuses for shifts during certain days: holidays, weekends, evenings. They can work in 10-12 hr shifts and it is not common to have a schedule such as 4-days on, 4-days off.

 

 

This was not meant to derail the discussion topic but rather to say that it is not appropriate to compare the physician's salary to that of the "general population" and say that "because we have it much better, we need not lobby for salary increases".

 

So far as this thread has been going: based off the averages of FPs that people have given examples of, and acknowledging that going into specialties is where the money is at, it seems clear that the answer is: No. Family physicians are not earning more by the hour than specialists/surgeons.

 

You're using Alberta (richest province) to represent Canada? Sorry doesn't work that way. If anything, Ontario is the only province capable of representing Canada given it's middle ground. There are very very few teachers making 100k/year around here (toronto/gta) and they're all teaching night school AND summer school. Nurses making that much work like 60-70 hours a week. Pharmacists make 80k/year.. some certainly hit 100-120k but that's less common now.

 

In my original post, I said at minimum the potential is there. Just takes basic math to realize that. The average income of family doctors is pulled down by those working part time or just casually. Not to mention you're more likely to find less clinically skilled doctors in family medicine, and hence the efficiency rate is more likely to be slower.

Putting those factors aside, the potential to make more per the hour is certainly there.

[Rorzo]

You're using Alberta (richest province) to represent Canada? Sorry doesn't work that way. If anything, Ontario is the only province capable of representing Canada given it's middle ground. There are very very few teachers making 100k/year around here (toronto/gta) and they're all teaching night school AND summer school. Nurses making that much work like 60-70 hours a week. Pharmacists make 80k/year.. some certainly hit 100-120k but that's less common now.

 

In my original post, I said at minimum the potential is there. Just takes basic math to realize that. The average income of family doctors is pulled down by those working part time or just casually. Not to mention you're more likely to find less clinically skilled doctors in family medicine, and hence the efficiency rate is more likely to be slower.

Putting those factors aside, the potential to make more per the hour is certainly there.

 

I agree with your general philosophy, but the data for Ontario teachers just isn't correct. I personally know a high school teacher in the GTA making 95k, although he's at the max bracket for both years of experience and experience group. Tables readily available online (http://www.osstf.on.ca/adx/aspx/adxGetMedia.aspx?DocID=3952) show that any teacher in that bracket would be earning nearly 100k if they chose to work in the less populated areas of Ontario without any additional work.

[leviathan]

I don't live in Quebec... Maybe that's how it is in the caribbeans but not in Canada.

 

I should probably update my maps, I didn't realize Vancouver was in the Caribbean. You probably need to clarify that family doctors in YOUR area don't work exclusively in the office, as that's not how it is in a good chunk of Canada.

[thebouque]

I should probably update my maps, I didn't realize Vancouver was in the Caribbean. You probably need to clarify that family doctors in YOUR area don't work exclusively in the office, as that's not how it is in a good chunk of Canada.

 

I heard ''apple maps'' are pretty bad, google map is a little better. Go on the ccfp website and you'll see how versatile FM is. Are you an FM resident? Peace

[Wachaa]

Information for teachers in BC or Ontario is provided in one of my previous posts. There are specific tables that show pages and pages of teachers earning over 100k so it's not as infrequent as you're implying. Information on the various earning brackets are available for other provinces too and require some searching- as in Rorzo's post. Yes, lower outside of Alberta but again, not rare that teachers earn over 100k. Saying that they are teaching summer school is moot. If they weren't teaching in summer school they would have 3 months of summer vacation, plus 2 weeks Xmas, 2 weeks of spring break, etc.

 

Yes, nurses working 60-70 hours would be making overtime pay well over 150k. I agree. Often these are OR nurses etc where time can carry over.

 

The average of family doctors is pulled down by those working casual, true. But we have just seen in examples by da_birdie where the calculated amount does represent a provincial average of ~190k after overhead.

 

By the same logic that family physicians can be very efficient and see many patients in the day, so can specialists. The surgeon I just worked with saw 25 followup patients and 15 new consults in a 9 hour day. And an internist had 2 residents working with him, seeing 59 people for thyroid checkup. The pace was fast but not crazy. Billings for both were in the 800k range in an urban center.

[leviathan]

I heard ''apple maps'' are pretty bad, google map is a little better. Go on the ccfp website and you'll see how versatile FM is. Are you an FM resident? Peace

FM is extremely versatile. That does not mean family docs practice that way. I'm an IM resident, I'm married to a family physician and neither she nor very few of her colleagues do anything outside of the office. As you get into more rural areas that changes completely. My rural family med rotation at UBC was with a doc who did ER, nursiing + housecalls, and some did inpatient stuff. There was a family doc from Peace River who just gave a talk at a conference who does his own scopes. Again, I think you misinterpreted my post, as I agree with you 100% that family med is very versatile. Cheers.

[medigeek]

I agree with your general philosophy, but the data for Ontario teachers just isn't correct. I personally know a high school teacher in the GTA making 95k, although he's at the max bracket for both years of experience and experience group. Tables readily available online (http://www.osstf.on.ca/adx/aspx/adxGetMedia.aspx?DocID=3952) show that any teacher in that bracket would be earning nearly 100k if they chose to work in the less populated areas of Ontario without any additional work.

 

Yea but again that's less populated areas. They're avoided by most people cause they're boring and there's nothing to do besides go to Walmart or to the movies.

[medigeek]

Information for teachers in BC or Ontario is provided in one of my previous posts. There are specific tables that show pages and pages of teachers earning over 100k so it's not as infrequent as you're implying. Information on the various earning brackets are available for other provinces too and require some searching- as in Rorzo's post. Yes, lower outside of Alberta but again, not rare that teachers earn over 100k. Saying that they are teaching summer school is moot. If they weren't teaching in summer school they would have 3 months of summer vacation, plus 2 weeks Xmas, 2 weeks of spring break, etc.

 

Yes, nurses working 60-70 hours would be making overtime pay well over 150k. I agree. Often these are OR nurses etc where time can carry over.

 

The average of family doctors is pulled down by those working casual, true. But we have just seen in examples by da_birdie where the calculated amount does represent a provincial average of ~190k after overhead.

 

By the same logic that family physicians can be very efficient and see many patients in the day, so can specialists. The surgeon I just worked with saw 25 followup patients and 15 new consults in a 9 hour day. And an internist had 2 residents working with him, seeing 59 people for thyroid checkup. The pace was fast but not crazy. Billings for both were in the 800k range in an urban center.

 

Ok. Though the chances are very good that you won't be making close to 100k/year for a long time as a teacher, nor will you be making 100k/year as an RN for a long time.

I found VERY few teachers making >100k/year who weren't principals/VPs in the ontario public sector salary disclosure listing.

2 I actually know, both teach night school and teach all of July in summer school.

 

And those sound like more odd cases anyway. For every internist making 800k, there's certainly a family doctor making 500-600 while working less hours (given that internal med involves long hours naturally of course).

[nexus]

Ok. Though the chances are very good that you won't be making close to 100k/year for a long time as a teacher, nor will you be making 100k/year as an RN for a long time.

I found VERY few teachers making >100k/year who weren't principals/VPs in the ontario public sector salary disclosure listing.

2 I actually know, both teach night school and teach all of July in summer school.

 

And those sound like more odd cases anyway. For every internist making 800k, there's certainly a family doctor making 500-600 while working less hours (given that internal med involves long hours naturally of course).

 

Honestly, you are underestimating how much teachers & RNs make. If you take a look at the links that Wachaa posted (which is by far more credible than the #s you are quoting), it's obvious that the highest payment bracket in Ontario for teachers is basically $100k. This is not considering teachers who have worked for a significantly longer period of time, and ones who teach at summer school, grade EQAOs, etc. etc.

 

What do you consider a long time? Teachers will have worked for almost 10 years by the time one finishes a 5-year residency program. By that time many of them are at the max payment bracket. It's a $95K salary + benefits with 3+ months of vacation a year. I could go on about how much RNs make as well. Don't be so certain about claims you make about professions that you clearly don't know very well, listen to the other folks in this thread who's actually providing proof for their statements.

[justletmein]

depends where you live nexus.

teachers in quebec:

http://www.tresor.gouv.qc.ca/fileadmin/PDF/echelles_salariales/fp_professeurs.pdf

 

starting salary: 38,139

highest echelon: 77,214

[Rorzo]

Yea but again that's less populated areas. They're avoided by most people cause they're boring and there's nothing to do besides go to Walmart or to the movies.

 

How is the 95k/year salary for the Toronto school board in that document for a less populated area? The difference between there and the most remote areas is at most 5k/year.