McGill OOP

[canada747]

I'd like to practice in Ontario, and do my residency in Ontario. Am I going to be at a significant disadvantage if I go to McGill? I'm an Ontario resident and have a few Ontario offers.

I just feel like there are a lot of benefits of going to McGill as an OOP (which is such a rare case, many likely don't have the option to consider it). Is the home school advantage so significant that I couldn't get a residency at UofT or UBC if I went to McGill? How are CaRMS apps selected? Is it highly subjective (ie reference letters, and who you know) or more objective and quantifiable (grades, or test scores?)

Basically, I'm heavily leaning towards McGill, but don't want to think I've made a mistake simply because my friends are choosing in province schools (when they simply don't have the option to choose McGill, even).

[quibble]

37 minutes ago, canada747 said:

I'd like to practice in Ontario, and do my residency in Ontario. Am I going to be at a significant disadvantage if I go to McGill? I'm an Ontario resident and have a few Ontario offers.

I just feel like there are a lot of benefits of going to McGill as an OOP (which is such a rare case, many likely don't have the option to consider it). Is the home school advantage so significant that I couldn't get a residency at UofT or UBC if I went to McGill? How are CaRMS apps selected? Is it highly subjective (ie reference letters, and who you know) or more objective and quantifiable (grades, or test scores?)

Basically, I'm heavily leaning towards McGill, but don't want to think I've made a mistake simply because my friends are choosing in province schools (when they simply don't have the option to choose McGill, even).

You're correct that there is a home school advantage, but I don't think it is so great that it is insurmountable. People in McGill do match out of province (i.e., Ontario, etc.) so there are definitely opportunities. What you do need to think about is opportunities - the home school advantage by definition is due to the connections and chances that you get to build longitudinally. Electives are great to pop by and demonstrate your skills, but there are some research coming out showing that electives do not really alter your chances matching at those locations. So home school advantage may end up being a bit more important in helping you build those relationships from Med-1 to Med-4.

Canadian medical residency is much more subjective - since it's mostly P/F, you won't get to distinguish base on grades unless you win academic awards or if your school has a Deans List (top 10% or 15%, depends on school). It is mostly based on reference letters from your electives so building connections is very critical. Rounding out my previous point, I think home school advantage does have an appreciable effect, and you need to look long-term what's best for you in building those connections.

[j17f]

I'm someone who wants your spot and I'm not in medical school, but weeks ago I was thinking about the same thing as you.

From what I read/hear, the home school advantage is a thing. If you want to go to UBC or UofT for residency, do you have an acceptance there now? I don't think going to Queens/Ottawa/UWO will offer you much more of an advantage in getting a UofT residency than going to McGill would.

Days ago when I was optimistic and thought I would have some acceptances to choose from, I had planned to stay in Ontario because of the home school advantage. I thought that Montreal would be a dope place to live, I could see a lot more bands that come through Canada there, and I could watch the shitty Habs play. But after seeing the scary shit happening with students not matching, I wanted to take every precaution I could to get a residency in Ontario, which is why I had chosen to choose Ottawa or Queens (if they had accepted me).

Again, I want your spot, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[canada747]

6 minutes ago, lmck said:

You're correct that there is a home school advantage, but I don't think it is so great that it is insurmountable. People in McGill do match out of province (i.e., Ontario, etc.) so there are definitely opportunities. What you do need to think about is opportunities - the home school advantage by definition is due to the connections and chances that you get to build longitudinally. Electives are great to pop by and demonstrate your skills, but there are some research coming out showing that electives do not really alter your chances matching at those locations. So home school advantage may end up being a bit more important in helping you build those relationships from Med-1 to Med-4.

Canadian medical residency is much more subjective - since it's mostly P/F, you won't get to distinguish base on grades unless you win academic awards or if your school has a Deans List (top 10% or 15%, depends on school). It is mostly based on reference letters from your electives so building connections is very critical. Rounding out my previous point, I think home school advantage does have an appreciable effect, and you need to look long-term what's best for you in building those connections.

Interesting. So on one hand, you're saying that the home school advantage shouldn't be overlooked - but at the same time, it's not so significant that it can't be overcome. How would one overcome a home school advantage? Perhaps building connections in the programs/locations you'd like to be a resident at during the summers? Are you, as an OOP student, interested in Quebec residencies specifically, or are you too considering/planning to go elsewhere for residency?

[canada747]

3 minutes ago, Jfourn said:

But after seeing the scary shit happening with students not matching, I wanted to take every precaution I could to get a residency in Ontario, which is why I had chosen to choose Ottawa or Queens (if they had accepted me).

That's an interesting point, but my concern here is less with matching as it is with matching in Ontario. So it's not as "do-or-die" as going unmatched would be. I could realistically do a residency in Quebec, and if I am able to really do well in improving my French, I could have a solid shot at Francophone residencies as a solid backup. I think that could be an untapped gold mine, which is really a huge benefit to Quebec students (if, and only if, I can speak French near fluently by the end of my degree which I believe is possible for me).

With respect to schools, I got into UofT (but MAM only), as well as the other Ontario schools. I'm heavily leaning towards McGill though, because I love Montreal, speak a bit of French, like how affordable the school and city is, and see it as having good name recognition internationally. Not sure I'd be willing to give up all of that (real, tangible facts) for the potential improvement at landing an Ontario residency spot. I will undoubtedly not have these McGill advantages at other schools, but may still be able to land an Ontario residency even as a student in Quebec.

[quibble]

4 minutes ago, canada747 said:

That's an interesting point, but my concern here is less with matching as it is with matching in Ontario. So it's not as "do-or-die" as going unmatched would be. I could realistically do a residency in Quebec, and if I am able to really do well in improving my French, I could have a solid shot at Francophone residencies as a solid backup. I think that could be an untapped gold mine, which is really a huge benefit to Quebec students (if, and only if, I can speak French near fluently by the end of my degree which I believe is possible for me).

With respect to schools, I got into UofT (but MAM only), as well as the other Ontario schools. I'm heavily leaning towards McGill though, because I love Montreal, speak a bit of French, like how affordable the school and city is, and see it as having good name recognition internationally. Not sure I'd be willing to give up all of that (real, tangible facts) for the potential improvement at landing an Ontario residency spot. I will undoubtedly not have these McGill advantages at other schools, but may still be able to land an Ontario residency even as a student in Quebec.

You do need to be aware of the CEQ contract that you sign.. just be careful. 

[j17f]

1 minute ago, lmck said:

You do need to be aware of the CEQ contract that you sign.. just be careful. 

How do you mean?

[j17f]

7 minutes ago, canada747 said:

 I could realistically do a residency in Quebec, and if I am able to really do well in improving my French, I could have a solid shot at Francophone residencies as a solid backup. I think that could be an untapped gold mine, which is really a huge benefit to Quebec students (if, and only if, I can speak French near fluently by the end of my degree which I believe is possible for me).

My thoughts exactly. I've been Duolingo-ing since I found out I was on the waitlist haha.

[canada747]

2 minutes ago, lmck said:

You do need to be aware of the CEQ contract that you sign.. just be careful. 

Definitely! But from what I've been told by @la marzocco, even if I were to do a Quebec residency, the CEQ doesn't prohibit me from working anywhere outside of Quebec. It simply stipulates that if I also work in Quebec, then I may be required to work at a location chosen by the Quebec government. If I choose to practice anywhere else, I'm completely free to do so.

[quibble]

It does seem odd to me that the OOP waitlist has not budged one bit.. last year this time, I heard it was on #7 already. I agree, having access to the Francophone programs as back-up is ideal for residency, but we need to gauge one's ability to communicate technically in French - you will be required to document in French and be completely autonomous (for example, at the CUHM - where UdeM has a lot of their residents, you need to document in French and speak French with technical precision, etc.) - you also do not want jeopardize someone's health because of misunderstanding. I am functionally bilingual for day to day, but having to speak and converse and discuss in medical settings, I still do not think I am ready - which is why I think "unlocking" residencies in Quebec is one thing, but making sure you do not compromise care is another.

Learning medicine in English (as a first language) is already hard enough, sometimes layering on top a language complexity really kicks it to a whole new level.

[canada747]

Good point!

[Medreams]

1 hour ago, canada747 said:

I'd like to practice in Ontario, and do my residency in Ontario.

Congrats on getting into so many schools - not something a lot of pre-meds get to say!!

If the quoted is actually what you want to do in the future, shouldn't you really be asking yourself two questions:

1) If I study in an Ontario school, do I have an advantage of getting an Ontario residency?

2) If I study at McGill med, do I have an advantage of getting an Ontario residency?

As Jfourn mentioned, with matching getting scarier with every passing year, wouldn't one want to set themselves up with any advantage (regardless of how small or big it is) they can right from the get-go? I know a few OOP students in their upper years at McGill, and they all want to match back to Ontario, BC and Calgary but only have a few weeks during electives to create an impression at these schools. That said, all Canadian schools are great - U of T is just as good McGill in program and "name recognition", if not better. In any case, name recognition doesn't matter when matching back to Canadian residencies.

[quibble]

But name recognition does matter if you want to backup using the US Match (NRMP). U of T, UBC and McGill are top schools to match to the US for residency. Prestige of the university is pretty much still a big thing in the US.

[canada747]

2 minutes ago, lmck said:

But name recognition does matter if you want to backup using the US Match (NRMP). U of T, UBC and McGill are top schools to match to the US for residency. Prestige of the university is pretty much still a big thing in the US.

Yeah, I've considered this. NRMP/US matching, potentially even as a first choice - I may want to do a residency out there. @Medreams Thank you for the congratulations! These OOPs that you know of, were they successful in matching back in their home provinces?

[j17f]

There was a user who posted about this a while ago, but has since deleted their post (presumably because they didn't get into McGill and were embarrassed), but you can see what they had said in the replies to their original comments:
 

 

[la marzocco]

I faced a similar decision last year between U of T and McGill. Although I cannot speak on behalf of U of T (as I clearly have chosen McGill), I will reiterate some of the points I had considered. I liked the appeal of Montreal - it was a nice city, and I always wanted to move outside the Toronto bubble. I also had a great experience with the candidates that I met during my MMIs at McGill, along with the students who volunteered that MMI weekend. Overall, my experience with McGill from the start of the application process has been very positive and I wouldn't have had it any other way. Tuition was a big factor - going to McGill is 1/2 of the cost of going to U of T, as an OOP. With these rising interest rates, delaying in tapping in your LoC is definitely a benefit in and of itself. Trust your gut - you will spend 4 years in that place, so make sure you enjoy the atmosphere and your environment. Matching is 4 years down the road, so just make sure you enjoy the process of getting your MD for now  

Edit: I should have typed MD(CM) **  

[Medreams]

14 minutes ago, canada747 said:

hese OOPs that you know of, were they successful in matching back in their home provinces?

They are starting their Med-4 this fall, so I can't speak for the matching yet. Although, I am sure that information exists somewhere for previous years - perhaps try contacting admissions and they can guide you.

[Neji3]

The program at McGill also offers weekly French courses if you'd like to improve your technical French vocabulary. Plus, living in Montreal, you'll have plenty of opportunities to improve your French. I have heard of some OOPs matching back in Ontario so it is definitely possible to come back!

[indefatigable]

On 9 mai 2018 at 10:51 AM, lmck said:

It does seem odd to me that the OOP waitlist has not budged one bit.. last year this time, I heard it was on #7 already. I agree, having access to the Francophone programs as back-up is ideal for residency, but we need to gauge one's ability to communicate technically in French - you will be required to document in French and be completely autonomous (for example, at the CUHM - where UdeM has a lot of their residents, you need to document in French and speak French with technical precision, etc.) - you also do not want jeopardize someone's health because of misunderstanding. I am functionally bilingual for day to day, but having to speak and converse and discuss in medical settings, I still do not think I am ready - which is why I think "unlocking" residencies in Quebec is one thing, but making sure you do not compromise care is another.

Learning medicine in English (as a first language) is already hard enough, sometimes layering on top a language complexity really kicks it to a whole new level.

Completely on point - I second this strongly.

I characterize my initial level of French as being insufficient to begin medical studies, despite being able to speak enough to get through an interview, to currently being a weakness/deficit situation that significantly impairs but doesn't prevent learning, especially when compared to English.  

I would note that clinical residency is probably slightly easier than med school in a second language, if one is functionally bilingual, since if one is familiar with the terms, it's more a matter of translation and refining concepts rather than intensively learning new concepts in a second language.  In other words, electives or rotations in French would probably go a long way, although knowing all the technical terms could still take time, even though many are similar to English.  Nonetheless, for a specialty like radiology perhaps, it may still be very challenging at the residency level.  

I started a thread on med school in a second language - in brief, there's actually been some research which shows that learning in second language environment is significantly impaired, even for med students with proven second language ability.  Bottom line - if one is going that route, intense immersion is the best path, to "force" someone to think in the language, which is easier accomplished in English rather than French.  

http://forums.premed101.com/topic/99477-med-school-in-second-language/